[SCD] Mutavault is not as good as you think it is.

[Alex]

Stop ruining your mana bases for a 2/2. I've seen so many of you guys fall prey to the trap that is Mutavault, so let me take you on a little tour of why Mutavault has been good in the past and why it is horrible right now the way you guys keep championing it.


Why did Mutavault originally see play?
The short answer is that it was printed in a set where tribal decks mattered. Being a changeling was relevant and sometimes activating it was to your advantage. A lot of decks could also make good use of it. Merfolk in particular were famous for it because an activated 2/2 Mutavault often became a 5/5 with Islandwalk.

We do not have these synergies right now. A 2/2 for 1 is good but we have plenty of creatures that already fit this criteria, so why are we limiting ourselves over and over again trying to jam it into every list? Did you guys not
play during Zendikar? Are manlands shiney and new to you? I don't get it.

Why did Mutavault maintain its price tag in eternal formats?
Again this is probably very likely because of Merfolk. This is really throughout history the most common deck to play the card for any sort of value, and with good reason. I'm sure some type of tribal Elf lord deck could play it just fine as well, but this seems like a pretty casual use for the card. That being said, the card does have a lot of casual appeal since tribal decks are a big part of the casual mindset and this card fits that criteria pretty well.

In Legacy Mutavault helped the Merfolk deck get there, as often your first few lords got Dazed or Bolted. Having Mutavault on board to make your t3 or t4 lord actually useful was an important role to that deck.

What are we doing with it here in Standard? Making Boros Reckoner uncastable and mulliganing away more hands? Shying away from a third color because "WE NEED TO
PLAY THIS 2/2!" No. Shame on you.


tl;dr: Mutavault is not as good as a lot of you guys seem to think it is. Without tribal lords to synergize with, the card is simply mediocre at best and is likely causing your deck to run more poorly than anything else. In mono colored decks it's fine, everywhere else you need to seriously consider whether or not a bear with no upside is doing anything for you.

[Kazekirimaru]

Because freeing up slots in your deck by having mana and creatures wrapped up in one delicious package isn't relevant at all.

Though I admit it's most effective in a mono-colored deck.

[Alex]

Because freeing up slots in your deck by having mana and creatures wrapped up in one delicious package isn't relevant at all.

Though I admit it's most effective in a mono-colored deck.

We are passing the point where having a creature and land wrapped into one is relevant. Creatures are MUCH more powerful now than they were in Morningtide.

I have seen people advocate cutting colors to simply play Mutavault, and it's happening more and more often. This is absolutely incorrect and you guys should know better than to cut your card pool simply because of the "quality" (and I use this term lightly here) of one single card.

The cons of Mutavault far, FAR outweigh the pros right now, especially considering the quality of mana bases and
moreso the quality of creature spells that can be cast using colored mana.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah a lot if the two colour manabases feat. Mutavault are terrifying. If you're mono-colour, sure, it's almost free; but yeah, you can just jam 4 into dos Rakis; you need 14-15 turn 1 red and 12 turn 2 black if you're running a black 2 drop. Cutting from that is just folly.

Good write up.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Stop ruining your mana bases for a 2/2. I've seen so many of you guys fall prey to the trap that is Mutavault, so let me take you on a little tour of why Mutavault has been good in the past and why it is horrible right now the way you guys keep championing it.


Why did Mutavault originally see play?
The short answer is that it was printed in a set where tribal decks mattered. Being a changeling was relevant and sometimes activating it was to your advantage. A lot of decks could also make good use of it. Merfolk in particular were famous for it because an activated 2/2 Mutavault often became a 5/5 with Islandwalk.

We do not have these synergies right now. A 2/2 for 1 is good but we have plenty of creatures that already fit this criteria, so
why are we limiting ourselves over and over again trying to jam it into every list? Did you guys not play during Zendikar? Are manlands shiney and new to you? I don't get it.

Why did Mutavault maintain its price tag in eternal formats?
Again this is probably very likely because of Merfolk. This is really throughout history the most common deck to play the card for any sort of value, and with good reason. I'm sure some type of tribal Elf lord deck could play it just fine as well, but this seems like a pretty casual use for the card. That being said, the card does have a lot of casual appeal since tribal decks are a big part of the casual mindset and this card fits that criteria pretty well.

In Legacy Mutavault helped the Merfolk deck get there, as often your first few lords got Dazed or Bolted. Having Mutavault on board to make your t3 or t4 lord actually useful was an important role to that deck.

What are we doing with it here in Standard? Making Boros Reckoner
uncastable and mulliganing away more hands? Shying away from a third color because "WE NEED TO PLAY THIS 2/2!" No. Shame on you.


tl;dr: Mutavault is not as good as a lot of you guys seem to think it is. Without tribal lords to synergize with, the card is simply mediocre at best and is likely causing your deck to run more poorly than anything else. In mono colored decks it's fine, everywhere else you need to seriously consider whether or not a bear with no upside is doing anything for you.

I respectfully disagree.

With lords, Mutavault would be insane. To answer your question, I did play during Zendikar, and I played RbDW. Mutavault is a lot better than Lavaclaw Reaches was, and we played it then. Mutavault makes more hands keepable than unkeepable in my experience.

Consider this hand (I drew this in a recent event)
:
Mountain, Mountain, Mountain, Mutavault, Searing Spear, Thundermaw Hellkite, Thundermaw Hellkite.

If that vault was a mountain, that hand would be kinda loose. With the vault, I could start attacking on T2 while I waited for my Hellkites to come online. On T4 I was able to Spear his reckoner without losing my vault because it wasn't active, then activate it and swing. Vault got in for 8 damage that game.

I have been very happy to have Mutavault every time I've drawn it in all of my testing (6 events, 24 rounds).

Mutavault is good because:

-It often ends up being Cackler 5-8 if you don't have a turn two play
-It gives you 1-2 creatures to attack with after a sweeper
-It justifies mono-
coloured decks with Burning Earth
-It trades with Cartel Aristocrat
-Players often forget about it and screw up combat math
-It works well with Hellrider
-It can be activated to save a creature from an edict effect
-You can use burn on a reckoner without worrying about it being redirected to an inactive vault
-It can be a chump blocker during late game races
-Protection from sorceries

Mutavault is bad because:

-It makes casting Boros Reckoner on T3 awkward. (Note, Boros Reckoner has lost a lot with the printing of Putrefy and then Doom Blade.)
-You might have to lose your second or third colour (which means losing Flinthoof Boar, Ghor Clan Rampager and [card:
368ad2ds]Boros Reckoner[/card]). (Which is questionable if you want to play Burning Earth, one of the best cards in the format, anyway.)

TL:DR I think we get more from Mutavault / Burning Earth than we do from Boros Reckoner (who has taken a hit from recent reprints), Flinthoof Boar and Ghor Clan Rampager.

[Alex]

Do these things outweigh the pros of playing an extra color in a format with the best mana in the history of Magic?

The answer is no unless you were already playing a mono colored deck, in which case proceed.

[Lightning_Dolt]

TL:DR I think we get more from Mutavault / Burning Earth than we do from Boros Reckoner (who has taken a hit from recent reprints), Flinthoof Boar and Ghor Clan Rampager.

[Alex]

TL:DR I think we get more from Mutavault / Burning Earth than we do from Boros Reckoner (who has taken a hit from recent reprints), Flinthoof Boar and Ghor Clan Rampager.

I highly doubt this is true just based on the fact that it has been Standard for 2 weeks now and is seeing less competitive play than Putrefy.

[LP, of the Fires]

I'm not going to fact check, but I'm pretty sure that's bologna. That, and I strongly believe that ghor-clan is poorly positioned as a card(along with most pure agro decks in general).

[Alex]

I'm not going to fact check, but I'm pretty sure that's bologna. That, and I strongly believe that ghor-clan is poorly positioned as a card(along with most pure agro decks in general).

Just doublechecked on mtgtop8. Totally true. There is literally only 3 decks worth mentioning at Richmond that played it, the most obvious one being AJ Sacher's Aristocrats. The deck was only 2 colors and played only 2 Mutavaults.

The other two decks were mono colored aggro lists.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=5323&d=230681
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=5323&d=230686

Putrefy was played in basically every Jund list.

[Christen]

Mono-red and mono-green is the only deck that I really see Mutavault in.

[photodyer]

So what I hear you saying, Alex, is that Mutavault would be an outstanding "one-drop" in something like a mostly-black vampire list featuring things like Bloodline Keeper, Stromkirk Captain and Vampire Nocturnus. In such a list, the vault is relevant in that it provides early pressure for a tribe that lacks a one-drop as well as the ability to turn on the count-based lord abilities. Not saying that black vamps is competitive right now (regrettably, because I really love the tribe), but this is an example of the tribal support you were alluding to is it not?

[Lightning_Dolt]

TL:DR I think we get more from Mutavault / Burning Earth than we do from Boros Reckoner (who has taken a hit from recent reprints), Flinthoof Boar and Ghor Clan Rampager.

I highly doubt this is true just based on the fact that it has been Standard for 2 weeks now and is seeing less competitive play than Putrefy.

I don't understand this comment, so I can't respond.

[LP, of the Fires]

Basically yes. Lorwyn block was tribal and mutavault was nuts. I remember it being like a 30ish dollar card.

[Alex]

So what I hear you saying, Alex, is that Mutavault would be an outstanding one-drop in something like a mostly-black vampire list featuring things like Bloodline Keeper, Stromkirk Captain and Vampire Nocturnus. In such a list, the vault is relevant in that it provides early pressure for a tribe that lacks a one-drop as well as the ability to turn on the count-based lord abilities. Not saying that black vamps is competitive right now (regrettably, because I really love the tribe), but this is an example of the tribal support you were alluding to is it not?

It needs a lord of some kind, or some way to be valuable outside of attacking.
Simply activating it in those old tribals decks often gave an advantage.

In Aristocrats it makes sense to sac your lands eventually as flooding in that deck is dangerous and eating your guys is value.

But yes, Mutavault needs to be played with caution as it really does practically nothing a larger portion of the time than a lot of you guys seem to think. If we're going to live in Christmas Land, why don't we all go back to posting on MTGS and broing out with Kamahl?

[LP, of the Fires]

While Alex's assertions have merit, I'll go out an a limb and say playing 1/2 copies of muta as a value land in control decks and potentially even jund goes a long way(outside of being obv amazing in mono-red and very good in certain gruul lists).

[Lightning_Dolt]

So what I hear you saying, Alex, is that Mutavault would be an outstanding one-drop in something like a mostly-black vampire list featuring things like Bloodline Keeper, Stromkirk Captain and Vampire Nocturnus. In such a list, the vault is relevant in that it provides early pressure for a tribe that lacks a one-drop as well as the ability to turn on the count-based lord abilities. Not saying that black vamps is competitive right now (regrettably, because I really love the tribe), but this is an
example of the tribal support you were alluding to is it not?

It needs a lord of some kind, or some way to be valuable outside of attacking. Simply activating it in those old tribals decks often gave an advantage.

In Aristocrats it makes sense to sac your lands eventually as flooding in that deck is dangerous and eating your guys is value.

But yes, Mutavault needs to be played with caution as it really does practically nothing a larger portion of the time than a lot of you guys seem to think. If we're going to live in Christmas Land, why don't we all go back to posting on MTGS and broing out with Kamahl?

Activating a man land and attacking for 2 is not Magical Christmas Land.

[Alex]

So what I hear you saying, Alex, is that Mutavault would be an outstanding one-drop in something like a mostly-black vampire list featuring things like Bloodline Keeper, Stromkirk Captain and Vampire Nocturnus. In such a list, the vault is relevant in that it provides early pressure for a tribe that lacks a one-drop as well as the ability
to turn on the count-based lord abilities. Not saying that black vamps is competitive right now (regrettably, because I really love the tribe), but this is an example of the tribal support you were alluding to is it not?

It needs a lord of some kind, or some way to be valuable outside of attacking. Simply activating it in those old tribals decks often gave an advantage.

In Aristocrats it makes sense to sac your lands eventually as flooding in that deck is dangerous and eating your guys is value.

But yes, Mutavault needs to be played with caution as it really does practically nothing a larger portion of the time than a lot of you guys seem to think. If we're going to live in Christmas Land, why don't we all go back to posting on MTGS and broing out with Kamahl?

Activating a man land and attacking for 2 is not Magical Christmas Land.

It absolutely is. Have you ever considered how quickly a vanilla 2/2 gets outclassed by the sheer quality of
creatures available to basically every deck in the format?

[RedNihilist]

Are we argiung about the fact that Mutavault is -good-, or about the fact that it's -overrated-?

I actually don't see anyone being strictly wrong here, so maybe you guys should just try to be more clear about the message you're trying to deliver to the opposite party.

[photodyer]

So what I hear you saying, Alex, is that Mutavault would be an outstanding one-drop in something like a mostly-black vampire list featuring things like Bloodline Keeper, Stromkirk Captain and Vampire Nocturnus. In such a list, the vault is relevant in that it provides early pressure for a tribe that lacks a one-drop as well as the ability to turn on the count-based lord abilities. Not saying that black vamps is competitive right now (regrettably, because I really love the tribe), but this is an
example of the tribal support you were alluding to is it not?

It needs a lord of some kind, or some way to be valuable outside of attacking. Simply activating it in those old tribals decks often gave an advantage.

In Aristocrats it makes sense to sac your lands eventually as flooding in that deck is dangerous and eating your guys is value.

But yes, Mutavault needs to be played with caution as it really does practically nothing a larger portion of the time than a lot of you guys seem to think. If we're going to live in Christmas Land, why don't we all go back to posting on MTGS and broing out with Kamahl?

By this same token, does it make sense in Hoogland's take on BG Midrange? His assertion was that it gave the deck early aggression that was immune to Mutilate, but in a deck which again can flood, it provides a pinch sac target for Disciple of Bolas.

[Alex]

In a deck like that, it's practically unblockable. At that point it's playable, but again, that deck is practically mono colored anyway.

[photodyer]

Cool...I understand what you were getting at and it makes good sense. In a deck that gains advantage from staying basically monocolored--particularly one that can get extra value out of the extra creature once it reaches critical mana--Vault makes sense. In decks that have tribal synergy, Vault makes sense. But ruining your mana or avoiding a synergistic extra color just to run Vault is not worth it. Vault becomes a trap.

[Alex]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=84935#p84935:384fbesh]photodyer » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:18 am[/url:384fbesh]":384fbesh]Cool...I understand what you were getting at and it makes good sense. In a deck that gains advantage from staying basically monocolored--particularly one that can get extra value out of the extra creature once it reaches critical mana--Vault makes sense. In decks that have tribal synergy, Vault makes sense. But ruining your mana or avoiding a synergistic extra color just to run Vault is not worth it. Vault becomes a trap.[/quote:384fbesh]
Precisely.

And furthermore I find that it becomes a trap when people don't actually realize you can't activate and attack the turn it comes out. It was pretty common to see people try and go T1 blue source for fish, T2 Mutavault and try and attack with it back in the day.

[Lightning_Dolt]

So what I hear you saying, Alex, is that Mutavault would be an outstanding one-drop in something like a mostly-black vampire list featuring things like Bloodline Keeper, Stromkirk Captain and [card]Vampire
Nocturnus[/card]. In such a list, the vault is relevant in that it provides early pressure for a tribe that lacks a one-drop as well as the ability to turn on the count-based lord abilities. Not saying that black vamps is competitive right now (regrettably, because I really love the tribe), but this is an example of the tribal support you were alluding to is it not?

It needs a lord of some kind, or some way to be valuable outside of attacking. Simply activating it in those old tribals decks often gave an advantage.

In Aristocrats it makes sense to sac your lands eventually as flooding in that deck is dangerous and eating your guys is value.

But yes, Mutavault needs to be played with caution as it really does practically nothing a larger portion of the time than a lot of you guys seem to think. If we're going to live in Christmas Land, why don't we all go back to posting on MTGS and broing out with Kamahl?

Activating a man land and attacking for 2 is
not Magical Christmas Land.

It absolutely is. Have you ever considered how quickly a vanilla 2/2 gets outclassed by the sheer quality of creatures available to basically every deck in the format?

Not sure if trolling, or just hasn't played standard.

I guess [card]Mishra's Factory[/card] is a terrible card too.

[Khaospawn]

Playing Mutavault is perfectly fine as long as it's done safely.

[Platypus]

Good points from you all. Obviously Mutavault is better with lords, but Standard don't have many. Except a whole tribe of lords...Slivers. I'm surprised no half-decent sliver deck have showed up yet.

[RedNihilist]

Well, you've also got vampires (who are subpar, yet still exist), humans and the Mighty Elves.
I heard you can play 6 elvish lords in a single deck, so such a plan may be consistent enough.

[PirateKingAtomsk]

I just find it humorous that a couple days ago everyone was all ooooh patrick sullivan says it needs to be more threat dense and have more 1-2 drops then people hate on mutvault which is just that ( also saccing it to aristocrat in dosrakis seems to be pretty good tech.

[Khaospawn]

Leave P-Sully out of this!

[redthirst]

You don't jam it into every deck ever - and I don't think anyone was saying that you should - but if your mana base can handle it and a 2/2 is relevant in your deck there's no reason not to play some number of Mutavaults.

[Khaospawn]

You can't compare it to red's dick, which just basically forces its way into any slot available.

[redthirst]

Either make room for it or it'll make room for you... the choice is yours.


...except for the times when it isn't, of course.

[Khaospawn]

Which is usually always.

[Khaospawn]

And just like that, another thread is derailed by redthirst's giant penis. May its growth know no bounds.

[redthirst]

Amen

[hamfactorial]

I read Alex's post closely, then skimmed the comments. I believe that I can summarize it thusly -

Include Mutavault if -

• You have any tribal synergies (very few right now, possibly more after Theros)
• You want a free-roll creature that is sweeper-resistant
• Your mana base can afford some colorless lands (mono-colored or 2-colored deck with a late-game requirement for the splash)
• Your deck that can afford to delay casting creatures a turn or two in preparation for the long game

[hamfactorial]

Also, Redthirst's cock has its own tribal synergy, if you know what I'm saying.

[Khaospawn]

A deck can have any number of Redthirst's Dick in it.

[Khaospawn]

Correction : A woman can have any number of inches of Redthirst's Dick in her.

[redthirst]

Correction : A woman can have any number of inches of Redthirst's Dick in her.

I can verify that this is incorrect.