[Primer] Dos Rakis

[rcwraspy]

Should/could the Brimstones be Exava instead? Though at that point I'm not sure that 8 instants/sorceries are enough for Phoenix.

Also wondering if Chandra has a potential home here.

[redthirst]

Chandra's okay. On turn 4 it dings the opponent, destroys/nullifies a blocker, and maybe gets your Phoenix back.

Every turn after that it basically draws you a card... you know, if it survives.

Don't know that I want it in Aggro, though.

[Link]

she's been pretty serious game against control decks, which have been giving nuwen some problems if she doesnt get the nut cackler into spike jester draw.

Like "if she survives" is basically anytime you're against a control player that doesn't have a hellkite, and who keeps those in post board? Even if they have two resto angels to kill her immediately, if you got your phoenix back or hell evne if they just have two resto angels on the board not blocking, I'd consider her worth it

[windstrider]

Chandra would be best as a sideboard card against control decks. Ping their blockers to remove them, draw cards, and potentially end the game with a kill spell like Brimstone Volley for 15. With Mutavault and the Phoenix, we could always have a creature to sac to the Aristocrat to activate morbid.

[Link]

I do like mutavault and loyalist Red, lots of synergy power there. More sac outlets, no more lingering souls to chump aristocrat, first striking spike jesters.

Low curves ftw!

I thought Stonewright+Phoenix would be a thing but being able to swarm with your 15 weenies (noble, jester, mutavault, loyalist) seems pretty big game.

[PirateKingAtomsk]

Does Chandra's Phoenix take Reckoner's place once it's legal again? Maybe multiple Reckoners to the side, Phoenix main? I like that Reckoner can play O or D, but do we want to have a 2/2 haste flying recursion dude in game 1 instead?

I think I'll be playing the Phoenix. It's faster and more resilient/relevant in a meta with Doom Blade.

[deck]Creatures: 27
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat

Spells: 11
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
3 Brimstone Volley
n
Lands: 22
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Mutavault
8 Mountains[/deck]

side board off the top of my head,
[deck]Sideboard[/deck]

thoughts?

[redthirst]

Does Chandra's Phoenix take Reckoner's place once it's legal again? Maybe multiple Reckoners to the side, Phoenix main? I like that Reckoner can play O or D, but do we want to have a 2/2 haste flying recursion dude in game 1 instead?

I think I'll be playing the Phoenix. It's faster and more resilient/relevant in a meta with Doom Blade.

[deck]Creatures: 27
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
3
Legion Loyalist
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat

Spells: 11
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
3 Brimstone Volley

Lands: 22
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Mutavault
8 Mountains[/deck]

side board off the top of my head,
[deck]Sideboard[/deck]

thoughts?

More Mortars, less Dreadbore (not enough B in the mana base), don't know about Reckoner with Mutavault, and I'm iffy on how good Traitorous Blood is (or, more accurately, if it's needed).

[PirateKingAtomsk]

-2 dreadbore, -2 traitorous blood, +1 mortars, +3 ?, any thoughts on using seismic stomp, 2 mana to get past any non flyers possibly for lethal? Reckoner is just against agro/midrange and can be slotted out for something else (iI don't have vaults right now so I'm running extra mountains in their place).

[Nuwen]

Going to test out Redthirst's list today. My sideboard plan is approximately: 2 dreadbore, 3 Reckoner, 3 mortars, 3 traitorous blood, 2 Chandra, 2 super-flex slots that'll be claimed after I play a bit. Might replace Reckoner with Flames of the Firebrand if he's too difficult to cast consistently against R/G and all-in aggro builds.

Burning Earth is a huge winner in my most difficult matchup (UWR control). Not sure if it'll be as good in a 22 land list. If you force a control player to tap mana into your dudes and then play this enchantment... your opponent has maybe ~3 moves left in the game.

Does Curse of the Stalked Prey sound silly? I want this effect against Bant control & UWR control. It's a sticky force-multiplier that helps my horde of 1 drops continue to be relevant as the game state matures. Mutavault retains counters while being untargetable at sorcery speed. Too stupid in a sac outlet deck? Will
report back with results.

[redthirst]

Def report back - I'm just as curious to know how that thing's going to run as anyone.

Does Curse of the Stalked Prey sound silly?

Yes.

[Nuwen]

What's the logic?

If you activate the effect, you're already on the way to wincon? If the Curse doesn't have enough threats to support it, Curse can never be a dude?

[rcwraspy]

Would Rakdos's Return be out of favor with the new Mutavault list? You're running fewer land and fewer black sources. Still a SB contender?

[PirateKingAtomsk]

NEEDS MOAR HELLRIDER! No seriously the deck would probably be too pwn with it.

[Nuwen]

I wouldn't try to play Rakdos' Return in Red's list. It beats card advantage decks by being fast (with synergistic value, like loyalist + strong creatures or good burn + Chandra's Phoenix, mutavault). Rakdos' Return would slow that plan down. I'd rather play Burning Earth for 4 cmc in those matchups, for a finisher that limits your opponents avenues of play. Burning Earth is a lot of mental pressure too. You effectively destroy your opponent's hand turns 5/6+; your opponent has more cards to misplay / more opportunities to make mistakes with Burning Earth math.

imo sometimes you don't win; your opponent just loses. Burning Earth seems to add more of those opportunities to this list.

[redthirst]

What's the logic?

If you activate the effect, you're already on the way to wincon? If the Curse doesn't have enough threats to support it, Curse can never be a dude?

So incredibly win-more.

The only time you're getting a relevant effect from it is when you're already connecting with a lot of dudes - and in that case you don't need it. If you're only connecting with one or two it's hardly worth the slot. If you're not connecting with any it's a completely dead card.

Also, it's not a threat by itself. Every single spell in the deck should be able to kill your opponent... hell, even some of the lands can.

[redthirst]

I wouldn't try to play Rakdos' Return in Red's list. It beats card advantage decks by being fast (with synergistic value, like loyalist + strong creatures or good burn + Chandra's Phoenix, mutavault). Rakdos' Return would slow that plan down. I'd rather play Burning Earth for 4 cmc in those matchups, for a finisher that limits your opponents avenues of play. Burning Earth is a lot of mental pressure too. You effectively destroy your opponent's hand turns 5/6+; your opponent has more cards to misplay / more opportunities to make mistakes with Burning Earth math.

imo sometimes you don't win; your opponent just loses. Burning Earth seems to add more of those opportunities to this list.

I can get down with this logic in regards to RR.

I mean,
I love RR and I might try and squeeze a few in the board, but I don't want to have a situation where I SB in another 8+ B spells into a deck with only 10 B sources.

What I don't agree with is playing cards because they might make your opponent misplay. Chances are you'll beat scrubs like that anyway - it's the good players that you want to be able to beat.

That being said, Burning Earth is still absolutely brutal against 3+ color decks.

[PirateKingAtomsk]

I'm not sure how effective rr would be in a deck with a smaller mana base you typically wanna cast for 3+ and consistently hitting 5 mana with 22 sources (36.7% to hit 5 on turn 5) doesn't seem likely

[Nuwen]

What I don't agree with is playing cards because they might make your opponent misplay. Chances are you'll beat scrubs like that anyway - it's the good players that you want to be able to beat.

This is good advice, thanks. A lot of my experience is at the paper LGS-level, so I definitely say and do things that wouldn't fly in a competitive online environment.

[PirateKingAtomsk]

I'm on the fence about the guildgates, I've never been fond of lands that came into play tapped unless the effects were really nice. So I'm curious if theres ever any mana problems and whether to throw them on the field early or later? I know it's a land I don't wanna top deck if I need a land.

[LP, of the Fires]

Stopping in to say I didn't think I'd see the day redthirst put down his thundermaws.

My testing has actually indicated that we don't want to be playing thundermaws in the same deck as burning earth, regardless of what colors your running. having an additional four-drop to hellrider necessitates a higher land count and once your in the 23/24 range, it makes sense to go "all the way" and throw a couple five drops at the top of the curve.

Against things like jund for instance, burning earth obviously wins the game if you've dealt some damage, have a board state, and drop it on curve. However, you have to keep in mind that your opponents know that BE is a card. It's not unreasonable for them to switch into the aggressor role earlier then normal and start beating down with large scavenging oozes or what not to race the enchantment and surprise, surprise, that's an affective plan.

My solution was to just
go bigger so that after you've dropped manabarbs, you can follow up with trogdor and end any dreams they have of racing.

Having said all that, dos rakis has Falkenrath aristocrat which is immune to not tragic slip, so this theoretical talk is probably less relevant to ya'll.

[zemanjaski]

Probably short two turn 1 red sources; although Dos Rakis is built on greed

[redthirst]

Stopping in to say I didn't think I'd see the day redthirst put down his thundermaws.

They were given a true viking funeral.

They're owning bitches in Valhalla, now.

[Nuwen]

Really solid brew, Redthirst.

I'm running this sideboard core right now (no changes to main list):

[deck]
1 Legion Loyalist
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Chandra, Pyromancer
3 Dreadbore
3 Rolling Temblor
4 Frostburn Weird
[/deck]

The deck's weakest situation is losing a dice roll G1 against a low curve racing deck (R/G sligh, AIR). This is not too surprising: the creature-base of this deck is fragile and intended for evasive racing, not D.

Dropping a game because you can't cast Reckoner on time is frustrating. Running Godless Shrines in the sideboard is clunky and inelegant. Instead, I've put in a sweeper that 2-1's and 3-1's the decks I lose to on the draw. After you get ahead in card threats, this creature set can get online and start racing. I've also assigned high value to Temblor because the new hexproof 1/1 and Fiendslayer Paladin are making Bant Enchantments preeetty popular here.

The biggest
transition this deck makes is on the draw vs. fast aggro. I take out all 11 one-drops and 1 brimstone volley and put in 4 Frostburn Weird, 3 Rolling Temblor, 2 Olivia Voldaren, and 3 dreadbore. Volley comes out because we don't have weenies to sac/suicide for morbid anymore.

On the play, the postboard stays relatively pure. I add Chandra against midrange creature decks, Jund, and control. The raw power and speed of the mainboard steals most games on the play if you properly curve into black-sourced cards like Spike Jester, Aristocrat. The built-in sweep protection in mutavault/Aristocrat/Volley means this deck never has to slow down. A 4th Legion Loyalist keeps this deck fast against Junk Tokens, the new B/W humans brew. First-striking spike jesters are the nuts.

Rakdos Guildgates are essential to finding black, wouldn't try to play this deck without them.

I'm might be exaggerating the greed of Reckoner + Mutavault (~%10 chance to see Mutavault + Reckoner if you play 4 of each on the draw?),
but I think Weirds/Sweep will serve the same purpose with an even lower rate of failure over a large sample of games. Weird gives you something else to do with your mana on the draw too.

[windstrider]

I'm handing over ownership of the Dos Rakis thread to Nuwen. My head's not in the game right now, and she's better able to update the primer and keep the direction of the deck moving forward.

[redthirst]

I, for one, welcome our new wen overlord.

[Valdarith]

I, for one, welcome our new wen overlord.

I see what you did there...

[finn62]

On the play, the postboard stays relatively pure.

Super analysis Nuwen.

I have a question, sorry if it is stupid, but I just want to make sure I understand. In the above quote do you mean that on the play vs. aggro you basically don't side in anything?

[hamfactorial]

On the play, the postboard stays relatively pure.

Super analysis Nuwen.

I have a question, sorry if it is stupid, but I just want to make sure I understand. In the above quote do you mean that on the play vs. aggro you basically don't side in anything?

You side out anything that's completely dead, but leave your starting 60 mostly intact. The transformational sideboard is most effective on the draw in game 2 or 3.

[Nuwen]

Heeeeeey I'm part of stuff now! *sparkle*

On the play, the postboard stays relatively pure.

Super analysis Nuwen.

I have a question, sorry if it is stupid, but I just want to make sure I understand. In the above quote do you mean that on the play vs. aggro you basically don't side in anything?

You side out anything that's completely dead, but leave your starting 60 mostly intact. The transformational sideboard
is most effective on the draw in game 2 or 3.

Def this. The Redthirst list is very glass cannon. LOTS of power that will run over a variety of decks if left unanswered on the play. You don't want to touch your sideboard because most of those cards are responsive, which dilute your plan of being fast fast fast.

The older list plays a wider variety of mainboard removal and Reckoner, so it's more stable G1 against aggro.

[hamfactorial]

Are there enough value x/2s in the meta right now to keep running pillar over shock? I'm not terribly scared of Phoenix, and I'm willing to trade 1 life to kill Blood Artist at instant speed. I'm happy to let Voice of Resurgence be a 2/2, as I'm a tapout deck anyway and don't often keep mana up for EOT burn.

Setting up an EOT shock to get back a Phoenix in the graveyard also seems pretty fun, if niche.

[stuffydollfan]

Long time player of the deck here. I played Redthirst updated version of the deck with the Phoenixes and the Mutavaults. Piloted the deck to a 4-1 finish *very close to winning on my last game* Before that I was playing the list with the reckoners and hellkites and been winning my fnm’s or been close to winning the last couple of months.

Right off the bat I can say that both Mutavault and Chandra’s Phoenix are fantastic! Reckoner while being strong against agro, is not as good offensively. And Mutavault was really good at keeping the pressure after my initial wave of creatures died off. Shock is another welcomed addition to the deck. Never really missed pillar. But with that being said I did run into some new problems. Both the Ash Zealot and the Spike Charger are now a little bit more inconsistent to cast on turn 2. Sideboard cards weren’t as great either because of the lower mana curve and having less black mana made them
harder to cast. Though I will admit that I didn’t spend much time on it. And in the last game, I really missed hellkites. Also I don’t think Legion Loyalist did much for me. It was hardly ever relevant.

For now I’m putting Phoenix over Reckoner in the main. Keeping Reckoner in the side *though I will nee to come up with a good mana base *will have to bump back up to 24*. While I do love the mutavaults, I think four of them might do more harm to us. I’m thinking the hellkites need to come back. The deck is still strong. I was one life point away from winning the tournament *lasted 3+ turns like that*. But It feels like it has less options in terms of late game and side board.

[Valdarith]

Are there enough value x/2s in the meta right now to keep running pillar over shock? I'm not terribly scared of Phoenix, and I'm willing to trade 1 life to kill Blood Artist at instant speed. I'm happy to let Voice of Resurgence be a 2/2, as I'm a tapout deck anyway and don't often keep mana up for EOT burn.

Setting up an EOT shock to get back a Phoenix in the graveyard also seems pretty fun, if niche.

Doomed Traveler and Strangleroot Geist are seeing a lot of play right now.

[finn62]

I agree with Stuffydoll on a number of points following running Redthirst's list myself. I had a number of games where I just couldn't close out the game. I plan to bring back Thundermaw. While I really like Mutavault, I feel 4 may be too many.Chandra's Phoenix and Loyalist both help the deck IMO.
I did quite well with the previous build. My lack of success the past week is no doubt more my fault than the fault of the build. It always takes me a lot of playtime with a deck before I get it .
This is what I'm planning on playing next. I probably need 24 lands for the Hellkites. Any suggestions on what I should take out to get in another land in? Any suggestions at all would be appreciated.
I honestly respect the opinion of the members here.

[deck]4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
3 Swamp
12 Mountain

4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Legion Loyalist
2 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
n4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Searing Spear
4 Pillar of Flame
Sideboard
4 Dreadbore
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Burning Earth
2 Olivia Voldaren
3 Boros Reckoner
[/deck]

[Link]

When Nuwen said she missed her hellkites too, I pointed this out:

"Sure there are games where you run out of gas and wish you had a hellkite. But think of all those games where you just couldn't close things out fast enough because you were waiting and hoping for that 5th land drop WITh a hellkite in hand?"

Maybe Stonewright needs to appear again. He's actually house with Loyalist, and in the games you DO flood, he has action. He helps fill the curve out whereas hellkite is just stuck there waiting for the 5th (and there were a lot of games where you're just waiting for that damn 4th).

I don't know what I'd cut from Redthirsts Volley list to fit him in though. Its just really solid and fast already.

[Link]

[deck]Creatures: 29
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Stonewright


Spells: 9
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
2 Brimstone Volley

Lands: 22
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Mutavault
9 Mountains[/deck]

Its the only thing I can think of, cutting a pillar and brimstone. Which means less burst, less early pillars, for solidwright. *shrugs*

I think loyalist+stonewright can be pretty big game against any board state, which makes stonewright much better (he used to be only pairable with ash zealot and sometimes reckoner). Paired with chandra for the ultimate grind you out game, or with falkenrath for obvious burst potential.

[Nuwen]

I was one life point away from winning the tournament *lasted 3+ turns like that*. But It feels like it has less options in terms of late game and side board.

Sorry to hear you lost in such a frustrating way, but this type of situation is a real indicator of Redlist's power. I don't know what your boardstate was like, but it sounds like you put your opponent in a position where all of your non-land topdecks could represent lethal. Even if you were sitting behind ground stall, the deck gives you about a 1/3 chance of drawing something with evasion or burn reach. Variance sucks, but I bet your opponent had much fewer outs to survive than you did to kill him. Is that true in your memory?

[hamfactorial]

I'm not sure if Stonewright should be back in the deck, but I always loved having him around if my red mana count was high. I think 3 Mutavault might be right to ensure that you see them during most games but don't get stuck with multiples. There's a natural tension between Stonewright and Mutavault with respect to the mana base. Previously, Godless Shrine took up the 4 non-red slots in the deck with the upside of making Boros Reckoner and all your black cards easier to cast.

The future of Mutavault in Dos Rakis will depend on whether you'd rather have Mutavault or Boros Reckoner + Spike Jester.

8 untapped black sources is probably fine for a turn 4 Falkenrath Aristocrat, but not a turn 2 Spike Jester. There's not enough tribal synergy to run Cavern. If you want Stonewright and Mutavault, you need a red 2 drop to replace the Jester.

[LP, of the Fires]

8 R/B duals +9 mountains is 17 Red sources which is borderline enough and 2 caverns naming warrior casts ash and spike jester *shrug*

You could try it, but I think the mana would be barely not good enough. You'd probably be better off running -1 muta, +1 mountain, or just adding a mountain and cutting a card(loyalist in all likelihood).

Spike jesters just tough on the mana in general though.

[Link]

yeah spike jesters arent meshing well with mutavaults in testing. Its a shame because its such a strong list when it gets on line

Nuwen wants to go back to the godless shrin reckoner list. More reliably spike jester is just about as powerful as chandra and bvolley? shrug.

[stuffydollfan]

That situation did come up a couple of times, but not enough to really make that big of a difference. Remember that the old list had both stonewright and reckoner which where good at breaking ground stalemates "long as there wasn't a reckoner on the other side". The mana base was also more reliable. My problem with the newer deck wasn't getting mana but was getting mana that didnt come into play tap reliably. Luckily even if i didn't have b/r or r/r by second turn, there was still another play i could make. Finally the sideboard seems to take a hit as well since most of the cards use black mana.

I was almost going to quit that game but I had to remind myself that there was still a realistic chance i could win. Not a good chance but still something. Opponent had 2 big blockers and was hovering at around 3-5 life and i had i think 2 ground dudes with a shock in my hand. He was using nighthawk to stay out of reach. I
was in top deck mode. Situation sucked because i had to keep sending my ground dudes to keep him from getting out of reach. If i would have gotten another shock, spear, or volley it most likely would have been game. He ended drawing olivia the turn before i would have been able to kill him. But yes my opponent had answers all day long and top drew like a champ.

Don't get me wrong, the deck was powerful but in a different way. Felt a lot closer to the grul decks but without the goreclan rampager or the hellrider to help it out. But it can be stopped in the same way. And once you hit that road bump it's a lot harder to come back.

Anyways i revised the old deck list and put the hellkites back in and bumped up the land count to 24 again. Mana base and side board is still work in process.

[deck]24 Lands

4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonspire Cavern
2 Godless Shrine
10 Mountain
4 Mutavault

28 Creatures

4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra’s Phoenix
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Rakdos Cackler
n3 Spike Jester
3 Stormkirk Noble
3 Thundermaw Hellkite

8 Instants

4 Searing Spear
4 Shock

Sideboard

3 Boros Reckoner
2 Chandra
3 Dreadbore
2 Olivia Volderan
2 Rakdos Return
3 Tribute to Hunger[/deck]


That was one of the problems i ran into. spike jester and zealot weren't as reliable to cast in the mutavault list.
edited for the newer post.