[Primer] R/g Gruul Sligh

[Jack]

Take a look at the first 2-3 pages, Johnny.
Also, Calamity, since you're going to SCG Philly as well, do you have any sort of clue about what the meta will be? I know I don't. It's been 2 months since I've played Standard at a sanctioned event, and I have no clue. I don't mean to sound too needy, but would my fellow clanmates (both Gruul and FoS) help me (and Calamity as well) build a board for the event? I'm totally lost, and I want to know what to test against, and how to board against it. I'm not just copying one to the lists posted above because I don't even know what's out there. The first 11-12 slots (wolfie, pillar and VS) seem settled (actually, not really. Is MB pillars right? Do I play 3 or 4 wolves?), but its the other 3-4 I question. Zealot? Loyalist? I'm not too sure we "need" either to win; it's just a matter of which one we'll want to throw in for more matchups. DAMMIT I'M LOST
NOW; I THOUGHT I KNEW THIS DECK! HELP ME (and Calamity) BURN THIS MOTHERFUCKER TO THE GROUND!

[Link]

I'd be testing against Naya variants, focusing on using VS correctly post board (they can have either mortars or selesnya charm to take care of your guys, so you have to be careful)

MB pillars is still a style choice. Do you want to run over people? Would you rather play a more controlled aggro plan, burning away their blockers rather than trading with them in combat? Play more of the control role in a mirror g1 at least?

Also this translates to the board as well. Between mortars and skullcrack, you can continue the "burn away blockers, control their gameplan (lifegain with thrag or unflinching courage)" or you can continue the "run over them" plan by running around them with pyreheart wolves, and legion loyalists.

If youre afraid of Junk Aristocrats, loyalist does a lot of work here. Being able to blank souls and voice tokens is pretty big, as is first striking/trampling over young wolves.

Ash
Zealot is a bit more narrow, since its mostly against "flashback" which gives us somewhat trouble and can be played around by them regardless.

Or you could just have more options open, cut a VS and go 2-2split of skullcrack/mortars/loyalist

[LP, of the Fires]

Test these matchups:

Mirror

Naya variants(agro and mirdrange)

Junk Crats

Junk Rites

UWR something.

I wouldn't bother testing versus normal aristocrats. All you'll find out is that it's a bad matchup and you'll try to dilute your board to fix it.

Personal, my sideboard is a bunch of hedging. I have a pillar, a mortars, some skullcracks, some Volcannics, a naturalize, domri, pyreheart wolves, some electrickery, basically all of the things. The reason I go with this spread is because often, I'm not siding out many cards and in my experience, most matchups aren't solved with a single card so I like having access to various effects.

Build at your own discretion.

[rcwraspy]

It seems like the BG list is picking up some steam. A BG list got top 8 at the scg open going on this weekend. Anyone done any testing in this matchup? My experience with it is that its pretty hard. I'd rather play Jund honestly.

Where? A list called "The Rock" took 9th at Columbus, but it was not the BG control list that's been showing up in top 8's with some degree of regularity. If that's the list you're referring to, it plays out different and is a true BG list rather than Bg (I personally don't see the point of the list without Mutilate); it's also a lot more prone to
color screw.


The Rock--Ryan Demarco 9th Place at StarCityGames.com Standard Open on 6/16/2013

[deck]Creatures (18)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Desecration Demon
2 Disciple of Bolas
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Strangleroot Geist

Planeswalkers (6)
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vraska the Unseen

Lands (24)
8 Forest
7 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Rogue's Passage
4 Woodland Cemetery

Spells (12)
2 Curse of Death's Hold
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Putrefy
2 Tragic Slip

Sideboard
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Pithing Needle
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
1 Putrefy
1 Tragic Slip
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sever the Bloodline[/deck]

Bg Control (one iteration anyway; some run MB Cremate and this is the first I've seen with MB Vraska)

[deck]
24 LANDS
14 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Golgari Guildgate

14 CREATURES
4 Desecration Demon
4 Thragtusk
4 Geralf's Messenger
2
Disciple of Bolas

18 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Sign in Blood
4 Mutilate
3 Victim of Night
3 Tragic Slip
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Putrefy

4 OTHER SPELLS
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Garruk Relentless

SIDEBOARD
2 Underworld Connections
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Cremate
3 Appetite for Brains
3 Duress
2 Golgari Charm [/deck]

Shameless plug in the Gruul thread. for those looking for information on B/g Control, I wrote a primer on the main Competitive page. Link here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=1092

That deck and this deck (gruul aggro) are my 2 decks at the moment. I really enjoy both. But I really do think that B/g Control will beat most aggro decks 75% of the time. Not much can withstand a Naya Blitz or Gruul Aggro nut draw, but that aside it's a good matchup for B/g Control. To understand how that deck ticks and how you
might play through/around it, head to the primer.

[LP, of the Fires]

I play against this deck a decent amount. The games can be described as such:

Did he keep a good hand? Ok I lose. Did he mull or keep multiple messengers and/or lack a green source? Then I win.

Or more clearly stated, bad matchup.

[Pyreheart Bezerra]

I play against this deck a decent amount. The games can be described as such:

Did he keep a good hand? Ok I lose. Did he mull or keep multiple messengers and/or lack a green source? Then I win.

Yes to this. The Rock is gaining traction in my meta because someone won Gameday with it then wrote a decent article about it. For me Hound of Griselbrand goes a long way to helping bring the matchup not so much in their favor. I am currently 2-2 vs the deck over the past 2 weeks. And Hound was the reason for both match victories. Either he stole the win out of nowhere by being bloodrushed (i.e. They felt comfortable enough to tap our for a messenger or demon and thus I could safely bloodrush with out 2-for-1), was able to be sacrificed for value to
Desecration Demon so I could swing with my other dudes or just simply ate two removal spells is enough to let hellrider hit once more than he would normally.

If they run cremate he becomes much much worse. The first time I got my hound or wolf cremated in response to the undying trigger I was pissed. I didn't even expect it.

In short, Hound is my sideboard option to tackle this version of control. But usually I just hope for the nut draw and try to end their day before they can stabilize.

[rcwraspy]

If they run cremate he becomes much much worse. The first time I got my hound or wolf cremated in response to the undying trigger I was pissed. I didn't even expect it.

Fun card to MB as a 2-of. Good against a significant portion of the meta, and even works against undying creatures and Rancor as a bonus for those game 1 aggro games. And worst case it replaces itself.

Maybe I just know the matchup so well because Gruul is my other deck, and I know how it works inside and out, but my B/g Control hasn't lost to aggro yet.

Luckily for Gruul, B/g isn't a Tier 1 deck. It's Tier 1.5 at best, I think. LP's right, it does need to draw correctly
against aggro, it's a grind but winnable against midrange, and it's 50/50 against other control. UWR Control is likely one of its worst matchups.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, very good against control as it warps their entire game around killing it; however, control is on a major downswing in popularity, so he is less necessary - unlike in Naya decks, in RG his fight ability is pretty poor so the scope for use is significantly limited.

[Calamity]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=71890#p71890:2xpdyy5i]freedom » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:12 pm[/url:2xpdyy5i]":2xpdyy5i]Take a look at the first 2-3 pages, Johnny.
Also, Calamity, since you're going to SCG Philly as well, do you have any sort of clue about what the meta will be? I know I don't. It's been 2 months since I've played Standard at a sanctioned event, and I have no clue. I don't mean to sound too needy, but would my fellow clanmates (both Gruul and FoS) help me (and Calamity as well) build a board for the event? I'm totally lost, and I want to know what to test against, and how to board against it. I'm not just copying one to the lists posted above because I don't even know what's out there. The first 11-12 slots (wolfie, pillar and VS) seem settled (actually, not really. Is MB pillars right? Do I play 3 or 4 wolves?), but its the other 3-4 I question. Zealot?
Loyalist? I'm not too sure we "need" either to win; it's just a matter of which one we'll want to throw in for more matchups. DAMMIT I'M LOST NOW; I THOUGHT I KNEW THIS DECK! HELP ME (and Calamity) BURN THIS MOTHERFUCKER TO THE GROUND![/quote:2xpdyy5i]
What LP said is good

my board is something like

[deck]SB[/deck]

With 3 pillars main. If i were to cut pillars main it'd probably be -3 electrickery +3 pillar. Also thinking about 3 loyalists instead of electrickery because (as LP said) Aristocrats is just kinda bad and bant hexproof is on the downfall, plus the pyrehearts are there for the midrange decks that run dorks (and you have pillar to help kill them anyway)

On Skullcrack: I really, really don't like it still. It might be an okay card but it absolutely does not fit into my playstyle at all of winning through board position and VCA with striker/pyreheart

[Jack]

Alright, thanks. I'm thinking 2 Pillars main, 2 side, plus 4 wolves, 4 VS, 3 loyalists, 2 zealots. This seems to work out well when finding substitutions, since most games you'll want to swap in zealot you'll want to swap out pillar. I've looked a bit more into the meta, and it looks like MB Pillars will be preferred. There are many decks that play voice, and Naya aggro will undoubtedly make a showing.

[Lightning_Dolt]

So I've got this troll at my LGS.

His deck is basically mono-lifegain.

He plays Centaur Healer, Warleaders Helix, thragtusk, sphinxes revelation, supreme verdict, terminus, snapcaster and restoration angel.

Once m14 drops, burning earth will end him. Until then, he's a fucking pain in the ass.

I would ignore him if he didn't consistently make the finals.

Any tech you guys can think of vs this, or just sit down, sign the slip and congratulate him for being so good at magic?

[Link]

I hear skullcrack is an amazing card >__________________________________>b

[Lightning_Dolt]

I hear skullcrack is an amazing card >__________________________________>b

Unfortunately can only run four. Thinking about domri / hound of griselbrand possibly. Any other ideas? I don't want to go full retard, but I would like to beat this guy at least once.

[pejmagic]

Play the same deck, with more deckbuilding? ^^

[RDW]

I hear skullcrack is an amazing card >__________________________________>b

Unfortunately can only run four. Thinking about domri / hound of griselbrand possibly. Any other ideas? I don't want to go full retard, but I would like to beat this guy at least once.

Obviously you run Dos Rakis and just win.

[LP, of the Fires]

Crushed TNM with my same 'ol list. Used all of my sideboard cards to great affect. Didn't drop a game in 4 rounds.

[rcwraspy]

Crushed TNM with my same 'ol list. Used all of my sideboard cards to great affect. Didn't drop a game in 4 rounds.

What were your opponents running?

[Link]

You know what I want to try out in the SB?

Ranger's guile.

I was thinking about it, and this deck has no shortage of answers to blockers. In fact, it THRIVES when our opponent plays creatures to stabilize.


What its weak to is spot removal, tempo plays. Pillar, azo charm, abrupt decays, etc. getting 1-1d until thragtusk time and havign done no damage crushes this deck.

So with the madcaps main, I want to try out ranger's guile as a 2-of. Gives us game against UWr flash, G/B control (yesPLZ tech against them), jund, anything.

Being able to bloodrush for damage without fear (requires double green...yeah I know only drawback) sometimes or madcap something and protect it is nice.

Plus I REALLY want to instead of getting azo charm'd, deal +1. I can feel how satisfying it would be.

[deck]SB[/deck]

thoughts?

[Link]

I hear skullcrack is an amazing card >__________________________________>b

Unfortunately can only run four. Thinking about domri / hound of griselbrand possibly. Any other ideas? I don't want to go full retard, but I would like to beat this guy at least once.

I'd try the Ragehammer list, aka a different list entirely, which has better late game against life gain.

Hound+Bloodrush, or hound+KWR trumps life gain everytime. Throw some hellkites or Runic Thar in and you're golden

[Pyreheart Bezerra]

Yes, i loves me some Hound + GCR!!!! Best feeling ever is the double bloodrush for 20 points on the spot.

Hound + Trample + Pump = Lifegain dudes face ripped off. Or just hope he doesn't make the finals. That list sounds highly annoying to play against.

Check out the ragehammer list.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Where is the ragehammer list? If it runs thundermaw its a no go. I sold mine and don't want to buy them again.

[Link]

its in the developing section of the competitive forum.

I might also want to try fog sb... especially if izzet blitz becomes a thing.

this requires pillars though

[LP, of the Fires]

Rangers guile doesn't sound embaressing. I'd want to test it, but it definitely seems like a powerful enough effect to win the game and makes some sense in madcap lists. I couldn't play it because it likely means I'd have to skimp on removal, but I actually really like that suggestion.

[Jack]

Assuming a standard, 21 land, 35 creature build, what did most of you cut for 2 Pillars MB? My original thought was 1 LM and 1 Striker, but I realized that both of those cards are key in the Naya Aggro matchup, which will probably make a pretty large presence in upcoming tourneys. I'm pretty settled on cutting a LM, but I still am left with a 61 card deck, and I didn't try Ham's fancy math, but if I did, it would probably tell me that playing 61 so we can get the extra land is wrong. I could go down to 20 land, or I could just cut a Striker, as that makes for easier subs with Loyalist.

[Link]

2 cracks (lp seducd me) 2 Ranger guile instead of 1 vs oyalisfs


best junkcrats without loyal, also never would've had a battalion anyway. more thoughts later

[Link]

Madcap reckoner is LEGIT

[Lightning_Dolt]

You don't find you get 2 for 1'd too often?

[Link]

doesn't matter if they're dead.

also just hit a topdeck skullcrack th turn after an unflinchiuhng courage. won with it.... fuck me I'm a convert

real proud of that matchg for other reasons, more later

[Calamity]

With all the midrange I played at SCG Philly I kinda wish I had mizzium mortars in my board. I got mana flooded all day on 20 land which was incredibly frustrating. Never saw my pyrehearts either, so I dunno how much stock I should put in my results.

Unflinching courage is definitely making me consider skull crack though.

[Lightning_Dolt]

With all the midrange I played at SCG Philly I kinda wish I had mizzium mortars in my board. I got mana flooded all day on 20 land which was incredibly frustrating. Never saw my pyrehearts either, so I dunno how much stock I should put in my results.

Unflinching courage is definitely making me consider skull crack though.

Same problem here at my GPT. How do you draw 9 land consistently when you run 20? Get Hamfactorial in here! I think it's just variance. Will try again next week, with a tweaked board for my meta.

Fate, are you still digging the Madcap Skills?

Like it better than Firefist Striker? The 2 for 1s aren't bothering you?

I honestly considering a return
to Ash Zealot. I'm seeing a lot of token decks with 4x Lingering Souls.

Firefist Striker only seems good off a BTE, and he seems to just get chumped.

Don't really want Lightning Mauler in that slot either for the same reason.

Are there any alternatives I'm not thinking of? Maybe 2x Stonewright / 2x Pyreheart Wolf in those slots.

That slot is the only part of the deck that feels really shaky to me.

[Valdarith]

Pyreheart and Striker in the same deck is the bees knees. I love it in mine.

[Valdarith]

For reference:

[deck]
Creatures (35)
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Firefist Striker
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager

Spells (7)
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Lands (18)
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
9 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Electrickery
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Volcanic Strength
2 Traitorous Blood
3 Boros Reckoner
[/deck]

[Link]

it might be time for a return to ash zealot...and possibly rancor (but madcap is just too good).

she slows us down though, but I'm tired of souls and snapcaster too.

plentv of thouughts coming

[Valdarith]

Rancor is so much better than Madcap. There's no debating this. The only reason you wouldn't run Rancor is if you were afraid of casting it reliably.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'm not sure why something so obvious slipped my mind. Rancor could be good in those slots. I'd really prefer creatures though...

[Pyreheart Bezerra]

Loyalist and ash zealot for souls tokens?

[Link]

Rancor is so much better than Madcap. There's no debating this. The only reason you wouldn't run Rancor is if you were afraid of casting it reliably.

I think its debatable beyond the fact that its more consistent mana wise.

The +1 damage on Madcap is not ignorable.

Going around a voice, or a cartel aristocrat with unflinching courage, or a reckoner, or etc is NOT ignorable. Rancor would trade in these situations, and go back to your hand (forcing to use mana on it again). Madcap sustains your boardstate while applying more pressure.

I've really been impressed with it so far. Rancor is probably way better against control just because of the CA, but I think long "CA" grindy MUs are less prevalent than races or board
states ones (aka mirror and midrange). Even against Jund I've used it well, and it straight up crushes Naya pre-board.

Have a write-up tomorrow probably, gonna list the MUs here to refresh my mind:

R1 vs. Bant Flash
R2 vs. Junk aristocrats
R3 vs. Junk Rites
R4 vs. UWr Control
R5 vs. Naya Blitz
R6 vs. B/r Zombies
R7 vs. Bye
R8 vs. Naya Midrange

[Valdarith]

That is pretty much the only situation where Madcap is more favorable, but then again Rancor represents more damage over time than Madcap by far. It really is the best creature enchantment ever printed.

[Link]

if you look at it in terms of damage over time, yeah it will do more. But how many turns are we talking here?

You say "the only situation" like its unlikely to come up, where IMO there are many more games where people will have a voice/reckoner down to slow us and madcap just trumps them than there are games where rancors DoT will be more favorable.

[LP, of the Fires]

I never want to have rancor in gruul. And I'm not even saying it's bad. I just prefer more consistent draws over more nut draws.