[Primer] R/g Gruul Sligh

[Link]

Testing with this list now to give the list better ability to fight through flood. Someone placed top 16 with no stromkirk nobles (2 loyalists and 2 sstonewrights instead), but I'm not going to let some young wolves stop me from playing the hero vampire:

[deck]
36 Creatures
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Hellrider
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Firefist Striker
3 Lightning Mauler
2 Stonewright

4 Searing Spear

20 Lands
1 Temple Garden
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
11 Mountain


SB: 4 Volcanic Strength
SB: 4 Pillar of Flame
SB: 4 Pyreheart Wolf
SB: 3 Legion Loyalist
[/deck]

Down to 1 temple garden for stonewright, also gives me 20 land now. Cut 4th hellrider for the 4th pyreheart. Loyalist can become Mortars or Domri or w/e.

Alternate version for MB pillars lovers:

[deck]
33 Creatures
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4
Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Hellrider
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Firefist Striker
2 Stonewright

7 Spells
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

20 Land
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
11 Mountain

SB: 4 Volcanic Strength
SB: 1 Pillar of Flame
SB: 4 Pyreheart Wolf
SB: 3 Legion Loyalist
SB: 3 Flex spots for (Domri Rade, Mizzium Mortars, TBlood)[/deck]


Second version looks much better, I just can't get away from LMauler. I'll test both nonetheless. I would put Domri rade in the flex spot in the current meta, especially without lightning maulers to deal with Azo charm lists.

[Link]

Considering I just beat GBlack control off the back of Stone-wright+Reckoner, I'm thinking he's a pretty sexy addition to our line-up

[fireiced]

Really love how you are able to add in 4 Firefists into the MB! I top 4 in a PTQ the last weekend with my old list and yup lost in the semis due to being screwed with hands again [I have this weird curse whenever I play aggro, I will get crapfest hands till I mulligan to oblivion]

Will post the report soon (:

[pejmagic]

Hello, where was the PTQ?

for the gruul slight, i've tested skylasher this week, and it's really fun to trap aetherling with it for one turn when he's oom for unblocable, then finishing him (certainly not a real competitive move, but made a good effect on the public who watched the final between us )

[Valdarith]

Skylasher is actually a solid hatebear to board in vs any deck with blue. Honestly it could be even more favorable than Ash Zealot.

[Link]

I'm getting real tired of Unflinching Courage.

Not in Bant though, in JunkCrats. Legion Loyalist as tech means quite little if they just swing for 4+ every turn evasive with lifelink.

so tempted to give skullcrack another chance even though its pretty horrible against aristocrats and other decks

[Link]

I'm honestly testing madcap skills over spear right now. Yes, I'm serious. If it connects twice (BTE into skills on cackler or w/e) its usually game, and its a board advantage multiplier if they don't have removal. Alternatively I could cut one of the 2/1s from the list, or try out Saito's old Ash Zealot+Rancor (aka no 2/1 period), we'll see.

Either:
[deck]Madcap Smash[/deck]

or

[deck]Saito Rancor Redux[/deck]

[Link]

#2 is slower, but brings back the BTE into rancor+pillar draw at least, and Ash Zealot doesn't give a shit about all these voices and 1/1s. Its less reliant on drawing BTE as well to have good draws

I figure with so many people prepared to take out 2/1s in either combat or with removal, rancor is going to represent more damage than them over time (as well as trample damage for lingering souls), and it still leaves up the Reckoner/AshZealot+Rancor going to town draw, as well as loyalist+rancor postboard.

#1 is more in line with BTE.dec that's been working well for me so far, but its giving up removal for the ability to turn things sideways more often. Use at own discretion.

I'll probably sleeve up #2 just because G/B control has been a thing at my meta on Thursday nights, and lolu if you start playing madcap skills into them.

[Link]

ah fuck it, taking #1. Its all-in time.

You want to stock up on MB pillars and quality blockers?

SAY HELLO TO MY MADNESS

[RDW]

Haha, cut to 17 lands and play AIR.

[Link]

hellriders been too good to me, I can't go back (well I could....)

[RDW]

hellriders been too good to me, I can't go back (well I could....)

Play AIG (all-in gruul). You can still rock the Flinthoofs and whatnot.

[LP, of the Fires]

I can't fault madcap. I'm also a firm believe that skullcrack is actually good out of the board in this deck, but I'm probably in the minority.

[Link]

So wasn't enough for the tournament, so just playtested a bit. madcap skill is awesome agaisnt augur over spear. Now instead of them being up a card that they revealed and me down a spear, we break even if they remove my guy with skills, but I still got the damage in (4/5 damage T2 over 1-2 damage if you spear the augur out of the way).

Was also very sexy against young wolf plays, voice t2 plays, etc. Didn't test it against much other than that, but it has potential.

Skullcrack is probably for better players that can learn when to hold it up, but even if I was better-what would get cut from the SB?

I much rather be tapping out a pyreheart wolf into a potential thragtusk.

Or what other cards are you thinking its good against? I know you like it over spear against sphinx's, but other than that it seems like just fog or dedicated lifegain decks (which I haven't seen Rhox in quite awhile. thankfully), which don't
make up enough of the meta to justify.

I want skullcrack to be good, so please tell me how you're using it.

In my testing its only been situationally good, even against bant hexproof (if your hand is too slow because you took out threats then you'll just die to their swings, lifegain or not), and once in a infinite-life-gain-reckoner blowout.

Vs the other potential cards for the SB:
Pyreheart wolf- always good against decks that use creatures to stabilize. Always good against decks that use a mix of sweepers. 1-1 removal, and some creatures to stabilize (Jund/Esper/etc.)
Volcanic Strength-always good against mirror and decks that use reckoner to stabilize
Pillar of flame-Speaks for itself
Mizzium mortars- Overloaded for value in a long grindy game, or just solid removal of blockers
Legion loyalist- Situationally good with batallion, but something of a trump versus Lingering souls and voice token decks
Domri Rade- Threat for decks that lack interaction with planeswalkers, can also draw us
cards. Can pit fight reckoner for gravy train damages
Elecktrickery- Can destroy souces for mana fixing and ramp, can be overloaded for value, can hit invisible stalkers, can hit enemy nobles and 2/1s, is also very weak if they have none of those out or is topdecked, though.

[zemanjaski]

Skull Crack sucks.

[RedNihilist]

Wow, that was fast!

[Link]

Zeman doesn't use a lot of words, but when he does, its Dos Wisdom.

[Calamity]

went 2-2 at FNM with gruul aggro, which is pretty disappointing but i played the decks' toughest matchups so it's not that bad.

First round played my girlfriend with her naya aggro deck, won die roll and nut drew. Second game she got mana screwed so the games weren't too interesting unfortunately.

Second round played junk rites, first game he played the best grisly salvage ever, it revealed a voice or resurgence, unburial rites, two lands and and angel of serenity. he took the voice, and two turns later flashed back the rites for a turn 4 angel of serenity WTF. Second game i had a good start and had two ash zealots on the board to prevent him from flashing back the rites but he played 3 thragtusks and i never drew pyreheart so he managed to live long enough to hardcast angel of serenity and exiled a reckoner and my two zealots and that was game.

third round i played golgari control. Man that matchup seems hard. it'
s like jund but instead of stabilizing with creatures you can go through with striker and wolf they just have like 25 1 for 1 removal spells plus 4 mutilate. Would have killed him but a nighthawk kept him at one life and he killed me next turn with a desecration demon.

fourth round didnt matter the guy threw games to his friends so they could win so he wasn't trying. it was some sort of bant rites or something. i dunno he kept a shitty hand game one and game two he kept a one lander, i did a BTE BTE flinthoof chain and scooped. he just didn't really care at that point.

so yeah, kinda disappointing FNM, not sure how/if i should prepare for the BG list. I also am definitely bumping up to four pyrehearts in the board for midrange matchups. in the matchups i want him i really, really want him so i need to play four.

The list i'm playing is one of fates lists with pillar a couple pages back (before the stonewright one)

Posted this in the FoS thread but then realized it could be here too

[Link]

I went 3-1 at FNM, not going to clog up the thread with too many of these reports though, so here are the highlights:

R1: vs. Grixis. I won the topdeck war, also learned play Hellrider when they have 4 mana still (because at 5 all the fuse cards come down). Was trying to "bait" removal when I was really just giving him more time, hellrider got turn/burned on 5 mana and did 0 trigger damage.

R2: vs. Esper-Sorin Jace Lingering souls version: I could just not get a hand against him, and he never stumbled. Lingering souls into Sorin is a bitch and a half. Through in Loyalists/Pyreheart post board, but got stuck on 2 mana with 3+ CMC in hand. Between augur, azorius charm, tokens out the ass, verdict, and sphinx's, this deck is actually worrying. All in Gruul might be necessary.

R3: Bant Control: G1 I mulled down to 5 with 4 lands and 1 hellrider, and kept. Even though I knew he was on Bant control, on the play.
Mistake? According to Z, no? To me, I would have rather had a 4-hand with 1 land and a 1-drop, because he did nothing and farseeked for a few turns. Obviously couldn't win this game.

G2: BTE, curve, smash.

G3: Wow this hand.

Summary

---

Would you keep: 2 mountains, 2 lightning maulers, 1 thundermaw hellkite, 1 pyreheart wolf. I'm on the draw, so fuck it. I topdecked the HELL out of this mo fucking game:

T1 draw: Stromkirk Noble. My hand just got infinitely better (this noble become a 5/5 motherfucker)
T2 draw: another LM (lol), soulbound 1 and swing. He had two tapland hand.
T3 draw: ANOTHER LM, swing in, he think twices. Play a LM un soulbound.
T4, he plays Rhox Faithmender, fuck, DRAW: MOUNTAIN. Windmill slam it down a soulbound the pyreheart wolf to the LM, got him to 6.
T5, thragtusk (ok you go to 11. "What? How about 16?" he said like a cocky little prick, oh rhox, right. You go to 16, draw: STOMPING GROUND. Slam that shit down with the
hellrider, go back down to 4 ass clown. (he double blocks hellrider, which was a misplay given his hand I think, but who wants to go to 1?)

He thinks for a bit. Apparently he could've either Sphinx'd for 3 (gain 6) and gone to 10, but instead he swings with the "here comes my verdict" shit, misses his lifegain trigger (which mean sI can kill him witht he 2/2 wolf and the last LM since he's at 4).

But then:
T6: Rip another Mountain, 3 land drops in a row. HERES MY HELLKITE.

Disclosure: Hellkite is greedy as hell with 21 land. Would not do again, and would certainly not do it against Bant control. Esper and UWr you can maybe get away with it (I always flood in those long games), but Bant's lifegain takes over the board and your hellkite can do shit after that point.

R4:

Rematch against "Mr. Trophy"

---

was against the guy who tried to get me to scoop to him after I beat him G1 my first night at this store,
lol. This time he was on Ced's Jund build (without gyre sages, with strangleroot geists), because I watched him crush this newbie (it was really sad to watch. The guy swung for 1 with a fiend hunter, not at domri (don't think he even knew he could attack planeswalkers). Then he slammed down a domri emblem... then played ANOTHER domri on top of that when he could've just won the fuckin game.)

I bloodrush a Noble over an Arbor elf (hey if hes gonna have removal might as well get it out of the way early >_>b) to start things off. He plays a flinthoof boar, I go BTE BTE Spear, he scoffs and scoops on the spot.

G2 he starts beating ME down, with geists and shit. Apparently there are a lot more interesting play decisions on the draw for this deck (I really need practice with it).

I get out a flinthoof lm, he has a boar and a geist out. My hand: (Volcanic strength, firefist striker, GCR, hellrider). I can block both, have both die, then get
out the firefist to kill his other geist. OR, I can chump the Boar, eat the Geist, get out the Firefist for the other half of the geist and VS the boar to eat his boar. I don't put him on removal since he played an arbor elf instead of clearing my blockers.

I go with option 2, and the next turn he doesn't attack and plays another arbor elf. I draw another 2/1 chump. I'm at 5 life. I know I'm dead to ANY removal spell he draws, so I figure its time to act now.

If I wanted to be defensive, I could've thrown down the GCR as another blocker, but between a single removal spell taking out my boar and the elves, he can kill me. So I go balls deep, bloodrush the GCR onto the boar, he takes 9 and goes to 7 life (he shocked twice.) I play the LM as a chump blocker.

He swings with JUST the boar, because he knows if I haste something out or firefist him he's dead. I block with the LM. Next turn I hellrider, the triggers+ 5 from boar make him dead.

That made him p. mad. He
starts pointing at the VS "this is SOOO risky. I'm running 3 abrupt decays, 3 putrefys, wow this is so risky" I tried to explain to him I knew he didn't have removal when I played it. He got mad he drew two arbor elves when he had plenty of outs, which is fair. We played some "G3s" for fun assuming he shouldve won that, and I crushed him multiple times. Even when he had the removal for my VS, it was usually the turn after I had already gotten in with it (because I wait for him to play out a blocker like a geist). That game he had to swing his geist into my reckoner, i block redirect 2. Play Domri then pitfight it to kill it, I redirect 3 lol.

Madcap Skills: I didn't get to play against midrange, so I only saw it at its worse, and even then it wasn't too bad. It got in for the same damage as a spear at least, and got my noble around augurs. Needs more playtesting. Obiviously bad in the mirror, spear is just too flexible. Wouldn't take to a
competitive event, but screwing around at FNM though its pretty good

[Christen]

You played Thundermaw with 21 land in a no-ramp deck? Well, you already know how it plays.

[Link]

It was in the SB as a 2-of, just as an experiment. I know I'm not casting on curve, but the problem I have against UWr decks is going late and not being able to throw down a meaningful single threat that can get past a resto angel while they just draw themselves out. Figure Hellkite would be good in that situation.

I took the Madcap list in #207, with a Pyreheart Wolf x1 in the MB over Pyrewild, and Thundermaw Hellkites x2, +1 Loyalist in the SB over Searing Spearx3 because there wasn't any other aggro players that I recognized.

[Calamity]

It seems like the BG list is picking up some steam. A BG list got top 8 at the scg open going on this weekend. Anyone done any testing in this matchup? My experience with it is that its pretty hard. I'd rather play Jund honestly.

[rcwraspy]

It seems like the BG list is picking up some steam. A BG list got top 8 at the scg open going on this weekend. Anyone done any testing in this matchup? My experience with it is that its pretty hard. I'd rather play Jund honestly.

BG Control (The Rock) and Gruul Aggro (this thread) are my 2 decks that I choose between whenever I play.

Quite honestly as long as the BG Control player mulligans into removal, only the nut draws are going to get there. And even then, multiple BTEs will still all die to a T4 Mutilate.

The BG Control deck is just built against aggro game 1, then sides into other matchups while still being relevant to midrange game 1 and grindy vs control game 1.

The only aggro deck I've found that consistently (this is the key word,
consistently) beats BG Control is Dos Rakis.

The only real tip I can give you is to not be lulled into a false sense of no-Mutilate security if the BG player starts dropping creatures. They're fine killing any of their own dudes - they all give value.

[Lightning_Dolt]

So this is in the semi finals at the scg open:

[deck] R/G Aggro Adam Johnson 8th Place at StarCityGames.com Standard Open on 6/16/2013

Creatures (28)

4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Hellrider
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble

Lands (20)

10 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden

Spells (12)

4 Madcap Skills
4 Searing Spear
4 Pillar of Flame

Sideboard (15)

2 Gruul War Chant
3 Volcanic Strength
2 Electrickery
4 Skullcrack
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Forest [/deck]

Thoughts on main deck Madcap Skills over Firefist Striker??

What about Gruul War Chant? It seems ok, but I'm not sure where you'd really want it or what you'd take out.

Why is there a one of forest? Lol

First night with gruul, I went 2-1 at fnm losing to four color lifegain in the finals. Pretty cool deck bro.

[Calamity]

I think pyreheart wolf would be better than gruul war chant for now.

Pyreheart wolf:
+costs 3
+is a body we can blood rush
-is a creature so he dies to removal (see what i did thar)

Gruul war chant:
+has battle cry
+harder to remove (enchantment)
-costs 4

I think pyreheart wolf is better because he can come down a turn earlier and is a creature we can blood rush, but honestly i think it could be worth testing. it was something i had thought about testing for awhile now i've just not gotten around to it.

[Link]

Pyreheart is better against control, which is picking up steam right now. Pyreheart also offers a hellrider trigger. Pyreheart can be hasted out with LM to have effect before War Chant could.

War Chant was nice for messing up combat math, but all in all Pyreheart is much better atm. War Chant-> Hellrider might be good for the Ragehammer G/R versions with ramp. but Thrillho's points were mostly valid in this thread. You don't want all that much at 4 CMC, basically just hellrider, in the sligh version.

4 madcap, 4 pillar, 4 spears. Wow. He must've not had any control MUs all day? I like Madcap over striker if only because striker is slow and everyone is used to him by now. But I wouldn't take out both LM AND Striker. Madcap is iffy against control as it is, but 4 MB pillars makes that MU waaay shakier IMO, whereas LM laughs at Azo charm among other things. it probably did well against a Junkcrats+Naya Voice filled
meta though.

-4 Pillars, +4 LMaulers (I was considered cutting firefist as well from the MB because of control's comeback and Voice's+tokens nto giving a shit about firefist), -1 hellrider +1 mountain, and you have a real list out of that guy.

His SB is also a monstrosity with the random ass forest, the Skullcracks, and the Warchants (somewhat decent).

I remember reading some article by Sam Black I think that said: "don't take everythin in a list that placed as gospel. Learn to take the good ideas-the ones that worked and made the list place- from the subpar ideas (20 land 4 hellriders, SB)"

Fixin it up:
[deck]Sayonara, Firefist[/deck]


Loyalist with madcap will probably be insane nuts against some decks. I also don't like Domri again here because of the Esper list with sorin+lingering souls, I rather just have more loyalist+Pyreheart.

Trying out 1 Pyrewild instead of a madcap, just because against control it offers the same effect (+3 damage on a creature at instant though) with buy back. I also like 32 creatures for density numbers. Could add the 4th hellrider instead of shaman on 21 lands if youre feeling it, but I really hate 2 riders rotting in my hand on 3 land, and want some new angles on those games I hit 5-7 lands with nothing to do with it. Or hell just keep the 4 madcaps for consistency wouldn't be the worse either.

[rcwraspy]

Pyreheart is better against control, which is picking up steam right now. Pyreheart also offers a hellrider trigger. Pyreheart can be hasted out with LM to have effect before War Chant could.

War Chant was nice for messing up combat math, but all in all Pyreheart is much better atm. War Chant-> Hellrider might be good for the Ragehammer G/R versions with ramp. but Thrillho's points were mostly valid in this thread. You don't want all that much at 4 CMC, basically just hellrider, in the sligh version.

4 madcap, 4 pillar, 4 spears. Wow. He must've not had any control MUs all day? I like Madcap over striker if only because striker is slow and everyone is used to him by now. But I wouldn't take out both LM AND Striker. Madcap is iffy against control as it is, but 4
MB pillars makes that MU waaay shakier IMO, whereas LM laughs at Azo charm among other things. it probably did well against a Junkcrats+Naya Voice filled meta though.

-4 Pillars, +4 LMaulers (I was considered cutting firefist as well from the MB because of control's comeback and Voice's+tokens nto giving a shit about firefist), -1 hellrider +1 mountain, and you have a real list out of that guy.

His SB is also a monstrosity with the random ass forest, the Skullcracks, and the Warchants (somewhat decent).

I remember reading some article by Sam Black I think that said: "don't take everythin in a list that placed as gospel. Learn to take the good ideas-the ones that worked and made the list place- from the subpar ideas (20 land 4 hellriders, SB)"

Fixin it up:
[deck]Sayonara, Firefist[/deck]


Loyalist with madcap will probably be insane nuts against some decks. I also don't like Domri again here because of the Esper list with sorin+lingering souls, I rather just have more loyalist+Pyreheart.

Trying out 1 Pyrewild instead of a madcap, just because against control it offers the same effect (+3 damage on a creature at instant though) with buy back. I also like 32 creatures for density numbers. Could add the 4th hellrider instead of shaman on 21 lands if youre feeling it, but I really hate 2 riders rotting in my hand on 3 land, and want some new angles on those games I hit 5-7 lands with nothing to do with it. Or hell just keep the 4 madcaps for consistency wouldn't be the worse either.

I didn't watch many of Adam Johnson's feature matches, but I saw him get
absolutely annihilated by Jund in the finals. He brought in Skullcrack and Mizzium Mortars to board into more of a control deck. Against Jund.

Absolutely the wrong boarding decision, and was likely due to the options he had given himself. R/x simply can not pretend to be control against a deck with so much removal. You need to board into getting faster, or more resilient, or more evasive. Or don't board at all.

Due to watching the finals and what I just said, I think your changes, Fate, are fantastic.

[Lightning_Dolt]

In fairness to skullcrack, it was the card that got him into the finals. Most 4-0 lists on Modo run them too.

In the finals Johnson just bricked.

G1 4x hellriders hung on three land...

G2 keeps a questionable hand (land, land, land, cackler, skullcrack, mizium mortars, hellrider) then draws the rest of his cracks / mortars and no creatures.

Not much he could do.

I don't think his boarding was too bad if it was:

-4 Madcap Skills (will never connect twice if at all)
-4 Pillar of Flame (only kills Huntmaster / token)
+2 Mizzium Mortars (for Olivia)
+2 Gruul Warchant (although I agree PHW is probably better, especially here)
+4 Skullcrack (reasonable if you don't draw all four)

[Calamity]

Pyreheart is better against control, which is picking up steam right now. Pyreheart also offers a hellrider trigger. Pyreheart can be hasted out with LM to have effect before War Chant could.

War Chant was nice for messing up combat math, but all in all Pyreheart is much better atm. War Chant-> Hellrider might be good for the Ragehammer G/R versions with ramp. but Thrillho's points were mostly valid in this thread. You don't want all that much at 4 CMC, basically just hellrider, in the sligh version.

4 madcap, 4 pillar, 4 spears. Wow. He must've not had any control MUs all day? I like Madcap over striker if
only because striker is slow and everyone is used to him by now. But I wouldn't take out both LM AND Striker. Madcap is iffy against control as it is, but 4 MB pillars makes that MU waaay shakier IMO, whereas LM laughs at Azo charm among other things. it probably did well against a Junkcrats+Naya Voice filled meta though.

-4 Pillars, +4 LMaulers (I was considered cutting firefist as well from the MB because of control's comeback and Voice's+tokens nto giving a shit about firefist), -1 hellrider +1 mountain, and you have a real list out of that guy.

His SB is also a monstrosity with the random ass forest, the Skullcracks, and the Warchants (somewhat decent).

I remember reading some article by Sam Black I think that said: "don't take everythin in a list that placed as gospel. Learn to take the good ideas-the ones that worked and made the list place- from the subpar ideas (20 land 4 hellriders, SB)"

Fixin it up:
[deck]Sayonara, Firefist[/deck]


Loyalist with madcap will probably be insane nuts against some decks. I also don't like Domri again here because of the Esper list with sorin+lingering souls, I rather just have more loyalist+Pyreheart.

Trying out 1 Pyrewild instead of a madcap, just because against control it offers the same effect (+3 damage on a creature at instant though) with buy back. I also like 32 creatures for density numbers. Could add the 4th hellrider instead of shaman on 21 lands if youre feeling it, but I really hate 2 riders rotting in my hand on 3 land, and want some new angles on those games I hit 5-7 lands with nothing to do with it. Or hell just keep
the 4 madcaps for consistency wouldn't be the worse either.

I didn't watch many of Adam Johnson's feature matches, but I saw him get absolutely annihilated by Jund in the finals. He brought in Skullcrack and Mizzium Mortars to board into more of a control deck. Against Jund.

Absolutely the wrong boarding decision, and was likely due to the options he had given himself. R/x simply can not pretend to be control against a deck with so much removal. You need to board into getting faster, or more resilient, or more evasive. Or don't board at all.

Due to watching the finals and what I just said, I think your changes, Fate, are fantastic.

i dunno if using madcap vs jund would be a good idea. seems like you'd get 2 for 1'd a lot. you'd definitely want to board it out (and i'm not sold on madcap yet anyway)

[Link]

if one of those hellriders was the 21st land, wouldn't have been a problem right?

If those skullcracks had been pyreheart wolves, he might've gotten there.

Not saying he's an unskilled player or anything, but his deck building decisions-like raspy said the options he gave himself-are subpar.

Mortars is rarely going to be good against Jund. You don't want to go late, you're never going to be able to overload it for "value", and if you're boarding in 3 mortars for their 2x Olivias, thats also wrong.

Skullcrack-don't care about MODO or people that use it-is just bad. If Jund lands a tusk, youu've got much bigger problems because you just spent a card doing nothing (other than rarely being able to "burn" them out) and they are up a blocker.

The fact that he drew all of his "SB" cards and that they were ineffective supports this notion. He diluted his deck too much. I for one
would be happy to see my SB cards against Jund (VS and Pyreheart). His MB configuration was also poorly positioned against any control decks (MB pillars), with poor SB options against those decks as well.

Speakin of might need to adjust the SB to 3 VS since they come in 1-1 with madcap skills. Maybe a lone Pyrewild/ in the SB to have him as a 2-of against grindy UWr matches, or a lone Domri? Def going to tweak the numbers a bit, brbz.

[LP, of the Fires]

One thing you have to remember when being critical is while pyrehearts would have been better in that matchup, would they have gotten him to the finals? That's not something you can easily quantify. For what it's worth, I think the things he did where fine if not great and against jund, I think he slightly misboarded from my experience with the matchup. I'd have taken out 3 pillars/madcap and added 2 mortars, 1 forest, 2 skullcrack, 2 V'strength. Against jund, on the play, you just want some extra mortars and nothing else, on the draw, you want some skullcracks because the game will go long and Vstrength gets better as you can sandbag it and play it on your last threat to push through the last bit of damage.

At the risk of sounding like an elitist prick, I play against jund ALL THE TIME, and my board plan has been golden. I think I've lost 1 sanctioned match against jund and regularly win in the mid/long game.
Skullcrack isn't the hero we deserve, but it's the hero we need.

Edit: I will say, I still haven't tested gruul war chant and am honest enough to admit that I probably won't anytime soon because I'm lazy and don't really want to play that card.

[Christen]

Gruul War Chant acts more like a Hellrider when you drop it. The best thing about it is making your later drops more threatening. It also cannot be easily removed. I can see it a potential staple for Gruul sligh when Pyreheart rotates out. The only really limiting factor to it is the 4cmc.

[Link]

well, I haven't dropped a game to Jund in awhile either so agree to disagree again. Pyreheart makes all your other hasty threats better, makes hellrider better, takes two cards to remove his effect (unless they topdeck another pillar).

Skullcrack is effectively dead if they DONT see the "Thragtusk" side of their deck. Jund only has 4 of them, after all, unlike Junk who can dig for them, play them more often, play them with Rhox...

Like I asked in the post before Zeman's, how are you boarding with skullcrack card for card? I assume out pillars, in skullcrack?

[LP, of the Fires]

Generally, I only bring crack in on the draw. On the play, even though boarded games are slower, you're still enough faster then jund that you don't want to mess with the formula. The only thing I bring in on the play is usually a second mortars(still playing one maindeck) for randomness like nighthawk and to kill Olivia. I just take out one pillar.

On the draw, it's -3 pillar, -2 firefist, +1 mortars, +2 skullcrack, +2 volcanic strength. You're usually going to have to beat 2/3 creatures+garruk so even though I hate Vstrength against decks with lots of removal, it's a necessary evil here. Skullcrack positively interacts with ever creature they play except olive and doubles as psudeo removal for garruk which can and will beat you if they untap with one in play.

[Link]

So do you find yourself leaving up mana in anticipation of Huntmaster/Thrag when you have a crack in hand?

I just find skullcrack sure is "nice" when you deny them the lifeswing and do 8 points of damage. (You say it interacts positively with huntmaster as well, so I assume you crack them for 5 points too), but all the other times? When you draw multiples? When you leave up the mana and the bonfire your board for 2 at 5 mana instead?

Like I said pretty much all situations in which I'm anticipating a thragtusk or huntmaster or something, I'd want to have played a pyreheart that turn instead. In Junks case, I get in more damage while also not killing his thrag for re-animation when I swing in. In Jund's I've played a resillient threat that can forces him to double block with huntmaster+wolf (or just not block if I spear the huntmaster), not be able to block with olivia or thrag, not be able to block with
garruk's token he just made, etc. Against Uwr and Esper, I rather have a pyreheart on the field before verdict time than ANY number of skullcracks for their "maybe" sphinx later on.



to put it another way, I read some words by I think Willy Edel or something, who said "you have to recognize your opponent's playstyle while boarding, so I won't give specific boarding advice. If your opponent is an aggro player that doesn't respect 4 untapped mana for instance, I'd board differently" He said that there are, surprisingly, "control players who play fast and loose, and aggro players who play a tight game."

So I figure in the end, its just a style difference, which begins way back with you liking pillars+mortars in the main where I don't like either. So I suppose the point of this post is.... for others who are on the fence to clearly see mine and LP's stance and to choose for themselves based on their style.

[LP, of the Fires]

yeah, I guess I wasn't being clear early. I basically agree 100% with Edel and tell my friends the same thing. Style is very important. I play a really tight agro and build my decks for my style. and FWIW, since I'm only boarding in 2 skullcracks vs. jund, it's pretty rare that I have 2 in hand

Also, vs. control, esper is pretty much a non-deck, but except in very rare cases(like my ptq matchup), if the control player doesn't play sphinx or get value off of the lifegain+multiple charms, you win. Against 'Murica, the versions I play against usually are only packing 2, maybe three supremes and instead have tons of lifegain with warleaders helix, sphinx's revelation and situationally giving guys lifelink with charm. I also have wolf in my sideboard as a 2-of, but I don't think he's strictly better then skullcrack. They both shine in
different situations while generally being good in the same matchups so I just run 2 of each to give me the option of whichever I think will be better in a situation and based off my opponents playstyle.

It's also possible the pseudo quote is from GerryT as I remember the article from when he won an SCG open where 7/8 top 8 slots where playing identical delver lists he said he boarded differently against each opponent because he knew they all had different styles. Zvi I believe said something similar when discussing the SCG black aristocrats deck and how the team members differed on opinions when they played the deck at PTGTC hence you saw some deck with more KoI and some with more Gather the Townsfolk.

I refuse to have no outs to thragtusk into thragtusk on the draw so I play skullcrack *shrugs*

[Lightning_Dolt]

Do you have a current 75 LP?

[photodyer]

It seems like the BG list is picking up some steam. A BG list got top 8 at the scg open going on this weekend. Anyone done any testing in this matchup? My experience with it is that its pretty hard. I'd rather play Jund honestly.

Where? A list called "The Rock" took 9th at Columbus, but it was not the BG control list that's been showing up in top 8's with some degree of regularity. If that's the list you're referring to, it plays out different and is a true BG list rather than Bg (I personally don't see the point of the list without Mutilate); it's also a lot more prone to color screw.


The Rock--Ryan Demarco 9th Place at StarCityGames.com Standard Open on 6/16/2013

[deck]Creatures (18)
4 Deathrite
Shaman
4 Desecration Demon
2 Disciple of Bolas
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Strangleroot Geist

Planeswalkers (6)
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vraska the Unseen

Lands (24)
8 Forest
7 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Rogue's Passage
4 Woodland Cemetery

Spells (12)
2 Curse of Death's Hold
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Putrefy
2 Tragic Slip

Sideboard
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Pithing Needle
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
1 Putrefy
1 Tragic Slip
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sever the Bloodline[/deck]

Bg Control (one iteration anyway; some run MB Cremate and this is the first I've seen with MB Vraska)

[deck]
24 LANDS
14 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Golgari Guildgate

14 CREATURES
4 Desecration Demon
4 Thragtusk
4 Geralf's Messenger
2 Disciple of Bolas

18 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Sign in Blood
4 Mutilate
3 Victim of Night
3 Tragic Slip
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Putrefy

4 OTHER
SPELLS
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Garruk Relentless

SIDEBOARD
2 Underworld Connections
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Cremate
3 Appetite for Brains
3 Duress
2 Golgari Charm [/deck]

[Calamity]

Yeah the bottom one was similar to what I played. He ran night hawk instead of thragtusk though. I was mistaken about the SCG list, my bad

[Lightning_Dolt]

What are your thoughts on Domri in these decks? It seems to be in some sideboards, not others. It seems good against control, but I'm not sure.