[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[zemanjaski]

Someone has all of Season 4 of Arrested Development waiting for him. Big game.

[windstrider]

I like Child of Night. She's a bear with an upside and meshes well with vamp tribal. If you can get her running with Stromkirk Captains, she's quite nasty.

Am I incorrect in thinking she's not a bad topdeck later in the game? She can chump block to protect life points while providing a small amount of life gain to grant you some time to find answers.

[Khaospawn]

Spent all day yesterday hungover as hell. My head is still hurting.

Lesson learned : when two of your buddies kidnap you and take you to an all night BBQ and drinking session, it doesn't mean you that just because you CAN drink for 12 hours straight that you actually SHOULD drink for 12 hours.

[redthirst]

it doesn't mean that just because you CAN drink for 12 hours straight that you actually SHOULD drink for 12 hours.

Dafuq you say?

[Khaospawn]

Also, happy belated b-day to J_S.

Caught up on reading the last few pages. You guys rock. Every last one of you.

Oh, and ham, props on turning down the poon. Another fine example of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

[Khaospawn]

Red - you're right. What am I saying? That's the hangover talking.

[Valdarith]

@Valdarith - Everything looks pretty balanced; the only color warp you have is overloading mortars, which on 22 lands is not a central game plan anyway. As long as your board is balanced as well, it seems like an appropriate mana distribution. Sure, you may have to mull here and there due to variance, but i'm assuming you would rather do that than deal with guildgates CIPT as you're not playing them.

That was my thinking. I might put in one Guildgate as it's not a terrible turn one play, especially since the deck has only 8 one drops. It's not bad on turn three either since there are only four three drops.

You want Rix Maadi Guildmage in your 60; it's very good. Also Ash Zealot.[/quote:
3o2wlx2o]

The only reason I left Ash Zealot out is because the deck only runs 14 red sources. That could just be me being overly cautious as Ash Zealot is a fine play on turns three or four at which point I should have RR.

I thought about Rix Maadi Guildmage as well since it's both a mana sink for late game reach as well as a combat trick on a body. Seems better than Shred Freak, and I could conceivably take out a Mizzium Mortars and something else for a couple of them.

Hmm, decisions decisions.

[Valdarith]

[deck]
Creatures (29)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
2 Rix Maadi Guildmage
4 Hellhole Flailer
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Spells (9)
3 Dynacharge
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Dreadbore

Land (22)
4 Blood Crypt
1 Rakdos Guildgate
10 Mountain
7 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Mugging
3 Electrickery
2 Frostburn Weird
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Ultimate Price
3 Act of Treason
2 Toil / Trouble
[/deck]

Better? Should Dynacharge actually be Weapon Surge? Gives all my dudes first strike for one less overload.

Or should I just go for an even lower curve and nix the Exavas?

[rcwraspy]

[deck]
Creatures (29)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
2 Rix Maadi Guildmage
4 Hellhole Flailer
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Spells (9)
3 Dynacharge
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Dreadbore

Land (22)
4 Blood Crypt
1 Rakdos Guildgate
10 Mountain
7 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Mugging
3 Electrickery
2 Frostburn Weird
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Ultimate Price
3 Act of Treason
2 Toil / Trouble
[/deck]

Better? Should Dynacharge actually be Weapon Surge? Gives all my dudes first strike for one less overload.

Or should I just go for an even lower curve and nix the Exavas?

I really like Exava in this list. Every top deck except the Guildmage has haste with her on the board.

Weapon Surge
is also 1 less point of power than Dynacharge. So you have to decide if you want +1 and first strike or just +2. That would depend on whether you think your powers with unleash are above or on curve.

[Valdarith]

[deck]
Creatures (29)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
2 Rix Maadi Guildmage
4 Hellhole Flailer
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Spells (9)
3 Dynacharge
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Dreadbore

Land (22)
4 Blood Crypt
1 Rakdos Guildgate
10 Mountain
7 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Mugging
3 Electrickery
2 Frostburn Weird
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Ultimate Price
3 Act of Treason
2 Toil / Trouble
[/deck]

Better? Should Dynacharge actually be Weapon Surge? Gives all my dudes first strike for one less overload.

Or should I just go for an even
lower curve and nix the Exavas?

I really like Exava in this list. Every top deck except the Guildmage has haste with her on the board.

Weapon Surge is also 1 less point of power than Dynacharge. So you have to decide if you want +1 and first strike or just +2. That would depend on whether you think your powers with unleash are above or on curve.

Perhaps with there being four Legion Loyalists, Weapon Surge is unnecessary.

I like Exava too, and want a fourth. Based on my previous concerns about RR on the Zealot, maybe cut her to three to make room? It's either her or Gore-House Chainwalker. He's pretty powerful but obviously not as fast and no first strike.

I like all the value these creatures have. Cackler at two power for one. Jester and Walker and three power for two. Flailer at four power for three. Seems really good. On that thought, three Dynacharge may be too many since my cards on their own are so powerful and I don't have any real "can't
block, won't block" effects.

[Kazekirimaru]

[deck]
Creatures (29)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
2 Rix Maadi Guildmage
4 Hellhole Flailer
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Spells (9)
3 Dynacharge
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Dreadbore

Land (22)
4 Blood Crypt
1 Rakdos Guildgate
10 Mountain
7 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Mugging
3 Electrickery
2 Frostburn Weird
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Ultimate Price
3 Act of Treason
2 Toil / Trouble
[/deck]

Better? Should Dynacharge actually be Weapon Surge? Gives all my dudes first strike for one less overload.

Or should I just go for an even lower curve and nix the Exavas?

I've tested both in All-in-Red, and Weapon Surge has always under-performed. One
extra mana to give all your creatures another +1/+0 is definitely worth it for Dynacharge. You should have no issues consistently overloading it on your mana.

[hamfactorial]

In an Exava list, I'd think that a 3/3 split of Hellhole Flailer and Splatter Thug would be nice. You might consider cutting the Ash Zealots (mana issues) and relying more on your Rix Maadi Guildmage in later turns to push through extra damage.

[redthirst]

I'd play more Gates and maybe run Shrines so you can play Reckoner.

I'd also find room for the Hammer of BoGoblin as a 2-of.

[redthirst]

[deck]Creatures: 31
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Foundry Street Denizen
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
3 Rix Maadi Guildmage
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Pyrewild Shaman
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Spells: 6
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dreadbore

Lands: 23
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Godless Shrine
11 Mountain[/deck]

4 Guildgates can be significant tempo loss... but that's better than color screw.

[Link]

yeah I think ash zealot is worth the tempo loss

Plus if you get 4 mana rix maadi+zealot on line... is there anything in the format that can stop you? (creature wise)

[Alex]

Ascended Lawmage. Single handedly just won me an entire draft.

[Valdarith]

[deck]Creatures: 31
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Foundry Street Denizen
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Ash Zealot
4 Spike Jester
3 Rix Maadi Guildmage
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Pyrewild Shaman
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Spells: 6
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dreadbore

Lands: 23
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Godless Shrine
11 Mountain[/deck]

4 Guildgates can be significant tempo loss... but that's better than color screw.

Might be good but with four Guildgates I'd abandon all ideas of being "fast". I'd want to increase my curve in that regard. I like how the Shaman allows us to eschew Dynacharge in the list.

Seems like we either go fast or go hard, but not both. Which idea is the most competitive?

[LP, of the Fires]

I'm a fan of hams idea as I was thinking the same thing. Cut ash zealot, add Splatter thug. Consistent and moderately fast.

[Valdarith]

I'm a fan of hams idea as I was thinking the same thing. Cut ash zealot, add Splatter thug. Consistent and moderately fast.

Also pretty powerful as a 3/3. But that would mean no Reckoner which would be fine as I could run a more liberal mana base with fewer guildgates.

[hamfactorial]

I'm a fairly conservative deck builder, so I like using a mana base that can support my spells and creatures with consistency. [mana]RR[/mana] on turn 2 is pushing it hard on 15 sources. [mana]2R[/mana] is consistent on turn 3.

My experience with HHF is such that you hate to draw 2 of them. There's a natural tension between holding mana up for the fling and casting another copy and risk losing both in a wrath. 3 was the right number in Dos Rakis RTR.

[Helios]

Ascended Lawmage. Single handedly just won me an entire draft.

All I heard was "Hexproof is bad for the game, because it decreases players' abilities to ineract with each other and actually play magic." //soapbox

But congrats:)

[LP, of the Fires]

2 cards from the new set that are much better then I thought they were:

Valroz and Warleaders Helix. The former opens up new and different archetypes like Aristocrats Act 3, and the latter provides a swingy affect that's about equivalent to instant speed supreme verdict.

[zemanjaski]

Ascended Lawmage plus Knightly Valour is the epitome of skilled game.

[Valdarith]

Ascended Lawmage plus Knightly Valour is the epitome of skilled game.

Yep. Nevermind that you don't even have to move your hand to tap her when she attacks!

...that does count as a skill, doesn't it?

[Helios]

So now that I actually have a Legacy deck (dammit I miss my Goblins, but the amount of available cash that deck represented was too tempting), I've been doing a lot more research into playing burn. I've played about 40+ games at this point, all against Death & Taxes, and about half and half w/w/out fetches. The local area allows proxies, so I can proxy fetches if need be, though as a point of pride I'd rather not.

Here are my observations, and if any of the thread gods could help, it would be much appreciated.

1. GLM is amazing. I'm playing two in the fetchless list, and he is still just wrecking. In the fetch'd list, he is obviously better, but honestly I'm not sure if the difference is significant.

2. The general consensus with fetchless lists is that you play Vexing Devil. I feel like that is just wrong, and would rather play Hellspark Elemental/Marauders. Thoughts?

3. I have 4 Sulfuric Vortex in the
main right now, but I feel like that should be 3 at the most, if not two. It definitely solves some problems, but seeing 2 is just too slow.

4. Figure of Destiny. I just don't know about this guy. Maybe it was the matchup, but he really underperformed for me. The investment of two mana to get a bear didn't feel worth it. Thoughts?

[Link]

I think Ascended lawmage has just about everything I hate about UW in a card.

If it had a detain/bounce effect...hell just slap a mythic rarity on and hand it over to the flash junkies

[Helios]

Posting my list as soon as I can make it to a real computer.

[Link]

Glad to hear you're entry into legacy is going well Helios! Any cards you need for the burn?

Also ++respect points for the pride. If only you could burn people with their own fetch lands...

[Link]

2 cards from the new set that are much better then I thought they were:

Valroz and Warleaders Helix. The former opens up new and different archetypes like Aristocrats Act 3, and the latter provides a swingy affect that's about equivalent to instant speed supreme verdict.

Speaking of UWr and new shiny tools that also let them kill Domri at instant speed when they are on the play T_T...

I'm glad Wizards restrained themselves and didn't repreting Helix for 2 though, I think the article specifically referenced it being literally impossible for Aggro decks to overcome that into Snap+Helix

[Khaospawn]

So now that I actually have a Legacy deck (dammit I miss my Goblins, but the amount of available cash that deck represented was too tempting), I've been doing a lot more research into playing burn. I've played about 40+ games at this point, all against Death & Taxes, and about half and half w/w/out fetches. The local area allows proxies, so I can proxy fetches if need be, though as a point of pride I'd rather not.

Here are my observations, and if any of the thread gods could help, it would be much appreciated.

1. GLM is amazing. I'm playing two in the fetchless list, and he is still just wrecking. In the fetch'd list, he is obviously better, but honestly I'm not sure if the difference is significant.

2. The general consensus with fetchless lists
is that you play Vexing Devil. I feel like that is just wrong, and would rather play Hellspark Elemental/Marauders. Thoughts?

3. I have 4 Sulfuric Vortex in the main right now, but I feel like that should be 3 at the most, if not two. It definitely solves some problems, but seeing 2 is just too slow.

4. Figure of Destiny. I just don't know about this guy. Maybe it was the matchup, but he really underperformed for me. The investment of two mana to get a bear didn't feel worth it. Thoughts?

I've been running Patrick Sullivan's list from like, 8 months ago, and it plays like a dream.

[deck]
Creatures (8)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

Burn (28)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

Enchantment (3)
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Land (21)
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
9 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Searing Blaze
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Ensnaring
Bridge
[/deck]

(1) GLM is a house, period. Granted he runs better with more gas that the fetches provide, but you do burn through your spells pretty quick to give him some adequate fuel. In a fetchless list, I'd run 3 fo sho. He just wrecks Merfish without a doubt.

(2) I'd rather run Maruaders than Vexing Devil any day. Not only is he guaranteed damage, but when played at the right time, he can prevent damage when against a creature based deck, and then deliver some damage back before he dies.

(3) 3 has been great for me. It's the magic number, I think. You don't want to see too many, but you do want to see it, especially against decks with Jitte and Batterskull.

(4) In my old fetchless list, I ran a 3/3 split with Figure and GLM and I wasn't disappointed. Granted, I'd board Figure out during some games, but more often than not, if he wasn't dealt with, he'd just run away with the game like Stromkirk Noble is capable of in Standard.

Here's an old Fetchless list I saw awhile back:

[
deck]Creatures (13)
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Keldon Marauders

Burn (25)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
2 Volcanic Fallout

Enchantment (3)
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Lands (19)
2 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Price of Progress
2 Volcanic Fallout
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Faerie Macabre
[/deck]

The Pyrostatic Pillar could also be Mindbreak Trap if ANT is big in your area, I suppose.

[Khaospawn]

I messed up on that last list.

Flame Rift should be Fireblast.

I'll fix that.

[Helios]

Here is my current list, though I am technically missing the 3rd and 4th Flame Rifts. Note that a lot of the weirder choices were just to play test. The SB isn't there yet because I'll hopefully be testing with a bunch of the guys tonight, so I can tailor it to the meta instead of just making speculative choices.

[deck]
Legacy Burn:

4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Hellspark Elemental

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
2 Magma Jet
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

18 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring[/deck]

I'm not sure I want the 3rd Lavamancer, but I'll give him a shot. He's technically anti-synergistic with Hellspark, but Hellspark represents a lot of damage along with some card advantage, and can run over chumps (my issue with Marauders). With the prevalence of Deathrite though, Hellspark probably goes way down in value. Based on the
suggestions I think that I'd be playing the above list, -2 Magma Jet, -2 Hellspark, +3 Marauders OR +3 Figure, +1 Lavamancer. Magma Jet is "inefficient," but scry just lets you win games that you had no right to win.

@Khaos: The primary reason I'm not running the fetch'd list is that the choice is fetchlands + money or a new laptop, and frankly I need a laptop. I can play with proxies though, so if I'm not happy with the fetchless list that can still change. It really is a point of pride in owning the cards I play with more than anything. Plus, the proxy thing is going away at some point anyway. Agreed on all points though, except necessarily playing a 13 creature list. But see below:

Q: Is 10 creatures too few? The prevailing theory of current Legacy burn is the fewer creatures the better (see the fetch'd list), and I really don't see the extra lavamancer representing enough damage that it would warrant adding 5 more creatures.

Q: 1 or 2 Barbarian Rings? Having played with it, I
basically never, ever wanted to see both of them, and felt more comfortable with just one.

[LP, of the Fires]

Note that if your meta is creature heavy, searing blaze should be maindeck deck as it becomes the best card in your deck.

[Helios]

Note that if your meta is creature heavy, searing blaze should be maindeck deck as it becomes the best card in your deck.

That is definitely an option, I assume I'd cut the creatures for it. Even though it isn't an instant when fetchless, sorcery speed 2-for-1 seems just fine to me.

Here's what I know is in the meta:

Death & Taxes (playtested the shit out of this one lol)
MUD
BUG
Sneak & Show, or Omnitell, I really can't remember which.
Storm/Fish <- the same guy owns these two, so it'll probably be one or the other
Lands
Dredge
Scapeshift (with...Thragtusk. Apparently you just can't avoid the damn thing)

Fairly combo-heavy, which unfortunately makes my deck a pretty bad choice in general:(

[Kazekirimaru]

Is nobody else a fan of Sowing Salt in the sideboard?

It's done me work in both Legacy and Modern.

[Helios]

Is nobody else a fan of Sowing Salt in the sideboard?

It's done me work in both Legacy and Modern.

I'm playing 19 lands.

[Kazekirimaru]

Is nobody else a fan of Sowing Salt in the sideboard?

It's done me work in both Legacy and Modern.

I'm playing 19 lands.

Ehh...

Point taken.

[zemanjaski]

Ascended Lawmage plus Knightly Valour is the epitome of skilled game.

Yep. Nevermind that you don't even have to move your hand to tap her when she attacks!

...that does count as a skill, doesn't it?

Keeps your hands free to masturbate while telling everyone nearby how brilliant you are - standard UW fare.

[Jack]

Ascended Lawmage plus Knightly Valour is the epitome of skilled game.

Yep. Nevermind that you don't even have to move your hand to tap her when she attacks!

...that does count as a skill, doesn't it?

Keeps your hands free to masturbate while telling everyone nearby how brilliant you are - standard UW fare.

I wouldn't put it past 'em.

[Kazekirimaru]

I really wish I could wash my hands of Standard and focus on Casual/Eternal formats like I really want to. But then, I'd feel odd and out-of-touch with the rest of the community.