[Idea] Burn

[hamfactorial]

I got a bunch of the cards on MTGO and tested for about 3 hours last night. I think that the deck is actually quite good, I just have the wrong mix of burn spells for the meta. I also suffered from some bad draws and horrible flooding (on 22 land!)

Terminus is still amazing. I liked UC more than T//T in the control matchup. Divine Deflection is fantastic in the aggro matchup. I think some quantity of Rolling Temblor might be relevant with all the RG and Naya Blitz I faced.

Thunderbolt is still the weakest burn spell in the list, it rarely has a flyer to hit.

I also enjoyed winning against a guy with the 4x Thragtusk nut draw.

[RDW]

I got a bunch of the cards on MTGO and tested for about 3 hours last night. I think that the deck is actually quite good, I just have the wrong mix of burn spells for the meta. I also suffered from some bad draws and horrible flooding (on 22 land!)

Terminus is still amazing. I liked UC more than T//T in the control matchup. Divine Deflection is fantastic in the aggro matchup. I think some quantity of Rolling Temblor might be relevant with all the RG and Naya Blitz I faced.

Thunderbolt is still the weakest burn spell in the list, it rarely has a flyer to hit.

I also enjoyed winning against a guy with the 4x Thragtusk nut draw.

Did you often draw more than two cards off of UC and that's why you liked it better, or was //T never able to be
used for an effective amount? Please let us know anything else you discover--I won't be playing this weekend.

[hamfactorial]

I liked UC because in the matches where I could afford to spend a turn drawing cards, I had enough life to spare. I drew multiple cards off of my UC, and T//T's damage mode was only relevant once vs a janky deck running Reliquary Tower.

Plus, there was a fringe case where I was staring down lethal (from an Assemble the Legion) with an active UC. If I waited to activate the UC and draw a Terminus during his turn, I could miracle it and survive. With T//T my only out was drawing a Rakdos Charm, because I didn't have 7 mana.

[RDW]

I've only actually tested Underworld Connections, and it's a very powerful card. Thinking about T//T, however, I've been leaning towards that... Hmmm.

[hamfactorial]

I was running a 1/1 split in the main, which was mostly for testing. Actually turned out well and saved some sideboard space while increasing my diversity.

[Valdarith]

One Toil /Trouble main is probably good. Think of it as your other Devil's Play that could double as card draw.

[hamfactorial]

For anyone running this deck, take a serious look at Divine Deflection. In the aggro matchup, it's essentially your 5th/6th copy of Warleader's Helix. They'll often extend into an alpha strike after doing a bunch of math, which you completely hose with a well-timed Divine Deflection for 2-3 points. You can either whack them in the face with it or remove a creature that's giving you trouble.

Winning at 1 life isn't a problem.

[Kazekirimaru]

For anyone running this deck, take a serious look at Divine Deflection. In the aggro matchup, it's essentially your 5th/6th copy of Warleader's Helix. They'll often extend into an alpha strike after doing a bunch of math, which you completely hose with a well-timed Divine Deflection for 2-3 points. You can either whack them in the face with it or remove a creature that's giving you trouble.

Winning at 1 life isn't a problem.

Does the damage delt Divine Deflection stack? Like, if someone Bonfires me and my three creatures on the battlefield for two, does Deflection deal two damage, or eight?

[deschain]

Apparently X damage prevented refers to damage that will be done to you and your creatures total.

In your case, if you paid X=2, you choose whether you will prevent 2 damage to you, or distributed among you and / or your guys.

If you wanted to prevent the 2 burn damage, and have all your guys survive, you'll have to pay X=8. You will then deal 8 damage to your opponent.

[RDW]

For anyone running this deck, take a serious look at Divine Deflection. In the aggro matchup, it's essentially your 5th/6th copy of Warleader's Helix. They'll often extend into an alpha strike after doing a bunch of math, which you completely hose with a well-timed Divine Deflection for 2-3 points. You can either whack them in the face with it or remove a creature that's giving you trouble.

Winning at 1 life isn't a problem.

Almost all of my aggro wins end with me at less than five life. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile... I won't be able to test very much, but really look forward to more conclusions from your testing. Never even considered Divine Deflection.

[pejmagic]

Finally, what's the last version of this deck?
I'm confused between 2 and 3-colors version, and t//t x1 & terminus or uc versions.

[hamfactorial]

Here's what I'm running these days.

[Deck]Creatures:3
3 Deathrite Shaman

Spells:34
4 Bump in the Night
1 Devil's Play
1 Divine Deflection
4 Pillar of Flame
2 Blind Obedience
4 Boros Charm
4 Searing Spear
4 Skullcrack
4 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Toil // Trouble
1 Underworld Connections
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands:23
4 Blood Crypt
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
1 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry

Sideboard:
1 Divine Deflection
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Archwing Dragon
2 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Slaughter Games
1 Blind Obedience
4 Terminus
3 Flex Spots[/deck]

[hamfactorial]

Nice Drownyard bro!

This is the ultimate troll deck.

[RDW]

Has it been performing well for you?

[hamfactorial]

When I don't get run over by ridiculous hand-farting 10+ creature openings, the deck is really solid. I've put the Terminus in the maindeck since I'm almost always siding them in for game 2.

UWR Midrange shits all over the deck, though.

[hamfactorial]

I'm having some success with 3x maindeck Tribute to Hunger. They're really saving my skin in the aggro matchup. Maybe better than Divine Deflection in the 22 land version.

[RDW]

When I don't get run over by ridiculous hand-farting 10+ creature openings, the deck is really solid. I've put the Terminus in the maindeck since I'm almost always siding them in for game 2.

UWR Midrange shits all over the deck, though.

How does UWR midrange shit on us? Don't you just dome them 6 times, and hold Thunderbolt for Aurelia?

What'd you remove for the Terminus?

[hamfactorial]

Maybe I named it wrong, I ended up getting spanked by counterspells.dek

I removed the maindeck bonfires for Terminus and dropped the land count to 22.

[RDW]

I guess that could be a troublesome match-up, hahaahaha. Likely running this deck on Tuesday.

[PrimalBurn]

Been playing this list online and have to say it is a ton of fun. Imagining the look on the faces of esper and jund players as a kill them with bump in the night is worth it alone Ive always had an unhealthy love for burn decks in legacy so seeing ham and RDW take this style seriously in standard is really exciting. Keep it up guys I'm looking forward to new additions and tech to this deck

[F.I.A]

I have been playing around with this deck, and wondering on a few things:

1) Is it recommended to keep a few Bump in the night instead of play them outright? Something like giving your opponent a false sense of security before dealing 10 damage with two of those and a Boros Charm for four mana, for instance.
2) Is it viable to maindeck a few Thunderous wrath, or its con to be in the opening hand far outweight the damage-per-mana? It seems great on paper to topdeck them on opponent's turn with Underworld Connections.

[RDW]

I have been playing around with this deck, and wondering on a few things:

1) Is it recommended to keep a few Bump in the night instead of play them outright? Something like giving your opponent a false sense of security before dealing 10 damage with two of those and a Boros Charm for four mana, for instance.
2) Is it viable to maindeck a few Thunderous wrath, or its con to be in the opening hand far outweight the damage-per-mana? It seems great on paper to topdeck them on opponent's turn with Underworld Connections.

I've been reduced to one event per week, so no time to really fine-tune this deck, but I hope the others are still
developing it. In any case, here would be my first thoughts:

1) This seems like a decent idea, but if you have double Bump in the Night, you could probably just run them out turns one and three and still get to 20 really quickly. In general, we end games with 0 cards and like 1-2 unused mana over the course of the whole game. This deck exaggerates the concept of mana efficiency, so I'd be wary of ever holding onto cards that I could have casted in the previous turn. Perhaps against aggro, it's not worth the first shock to Bump (them) in the Night, but I would fill in the rest of the gaps with the black lava spike at every opportunity.

2) As you mentioned, Thunderous Wrath seems really good with draw-on-opponent's-turn effects like Underworld Connections, but I conjecture that it's still not worth it. There are two paradigms here: power vs. consistency. Historically, it's been shown that consistent decks more-often (go figure) outperform powerful decks within the same archetype. Consider a
game where we draw 7 cards on-top of our starting 7: if we see a Thunderous Wrath at all, it's roughly 50-50 that it's a blank vs. being a 5-damage card... I couldn't argue against a singleton, but it's definitely not something we want more of because it's just too inconsistent.

Simply put, this deck wants every spell to do the same thing--independent of match-up--and we want them to do them with regularity. Additionally, we need to utilize our mana as efficiently as possible because we're using weak spells and need to get them dead before the strengths of theirs really shine. I definitely plan on playing with this deck in the upcoming weeks, but hope others can continue theorycrafting here so it doesn't lose its mojo.

[PirateKingAtomsk]

I gotta say I love me a burn deck and have been wanting to build a r/b/w version for some time. Now I know that the deck plays reactively and on your opponents end step but how do you typically deal with taking out your opponents, do you push 20 to the face asap or tdo you play it more controlly and burn out thier creatures as you go?

[RDW]

I gotta say I love me a burn deck and have been wanting to build a r/b/w version for some time. Now I know that the deck plays reactively and on your opponents end step but how do you typically deal with taking out your opponents, do you push 20 to the face asap or tdo you play it more controlly and burn out thier creatures as you go?

This is the problem with burn in standard. Against creature decks, you can't kill their dudes 1-for-1 because then you'll never kill them... That's why these decks run FotF, Terminus, Bonfire to get n-for-1s and then burn them
Out. Any ideas? Control/midrange easy.

[Valdarith]

I gotta say I love me a burn deck and have been wanting to build a r/b/w version for some time. Now I know that the deck plays reactively and on your opponents end step but how do you typically deal with taking out your opponents, do you push 20 to the face asap or tdo you play it more controlly and burn out thier creatures as you go?

This is the problem with burn in standard. Against creature decks, you can't kill their dudes 1-for-1 because then you'll never kill them... That's why these decks run FotF, Terminus, Bonfire to get n-for-1s and then burn them
Out. Any ideas?
Control/midrange easy.

With the release of M14 we will have a lot of tools for a counterburn type deck.

Maybe something like this (totally throwing this out so not tuned in the slightest).

[deck]
Creatures (7)
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (28)
4 Pillar of Flame
3 Faithless Looting
3 Shock
4 Searing Spear
4 Skullcrack
2 Thunderbolt
4 Desperate Ravings
4 Izzet Charm

Lands (23)
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Steam Vents
11 Mountain
3 Island
1 Desolate Lighthouse
[/deck]

[deschain]

on the subject of m14, young pyromancer.
It gives you the chance to go straight for your opponent's life total, since you're pumping out dudes for chump blocks.

[Pyreheart Bezerra]

Anyone playing this as of late. Or all we all on the All-in-Red train.

I wanna sleeve it up for my playtesting group tomorrow night. Basically taking ham's most recent list with some rolling temblors mainboard.

Me wants to burn things, and none of my friends think a burn deck can beat their Voice of Resurgence.dec decks. Oh how wrong they will be!!

[RDW]

Anyone playing this as of late. Or all we all on the All-in-Red train.

I wanna sleeve it up for my playtesting group tomorrow night. Basically taking ham's most recent list with some rolling temblors mainboard.

Me wants to burn things, and none of my friends think a burn deck can beat their Voice of Resurgence.dec decks. Oh how wrong they will be!!

I took the Rw version to a few successful FNM finishes. Just run 4 of each burn spell, 2 Blind Obedience, and 22 land (4 plains). Very consistent and decently powerful.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Not sure if this is the correct place for it, but this is what I'm thinking for post rotation:

[deck]Lands (24)
4 Mutavault
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Sarcred Foundry
14 Mountain

Creatures (16)
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Chandra's Pheonix
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells (20)
3 Boros Charm
4 Shock
3 Blasphemous Act
4 Searing Spear
2 Warleader's Helix
4 Pillar of Flame

Sideboard (15)
4 Skullcrack
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Burning Earth[/deck]

[RDW]

That seems fine to be here. Here's my initial thought for a post-M14 burn build:

[deck]M14 Rw Burn[/deck]

[hamfactorial]

RDW, that's looking like a really nice build. I'm going to test that once M14 hits on MTGO. Young Pyromancer and Chandra's Phoenix really added a lot to the archetype. Mutavault as a bonus is also quite tasty.

[RDW]

RDW, that's looking like a really nice build. I'm going to test that once M14 hits on MTGO. Young Pyromancer and Chandra's Phoenix really added a lot to the archetype. Mutavault as a bonus is also quite tasty.

Yeah, the pyromancer gives us chump-blockers against aggro (since most of them aren't running much removal), which allows us to focus fire their faces. I feel like Mutavault is supportable--we have 12 turn-1 red sources, 12 total white sources, and 16 total red sources, so everything should be easily castable...

[coffeecolder]

Hey guys, i've been thinking of a RW for a while now & it looks to be a mix of Johnny_Spike & RDW's versions mashed together:

[deck]

4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Rakdos Cackler
4 Vexing Devil

2 Blind Obedience
4 Boros Charm
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
4 Skullcrack
3 Warleader's Helix

4 Clifftop Retreat
11 Mountain
2 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry[/deck]

Still unsure of the SB at this moment. I know it'll have a mix of Boros Reckoner, Burning Earth, with some [card]Grafdigger's Cage[/card], [card]Tormod's Crypt[/card], Oblivion Ring & possibly Torch Fiend for the time being till i figure out what the meta here is like.

PS. I'll probably catch flames for the vexing one but i think he could
work out.

[Valdarith]

After playing this deck a bit I got the feeling it somewhat belonged here, though I'll probably create my own thread for it since it's kind of its own beast.

[deck]
Creatures (16)
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Guttersnipe
4 Hellrider

Spells (22)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Shock
4 Searing Spear
3 Wild Guess
3 Flames of the Firebrand

Lands (22)
4 Ghost Quarter
18 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Electrickery
2 Smelt
4 Skullcrack
1 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Burning Earth
3 Blasphemous Act
[/deck]

Sideboarding
UWR Control: -4 Pillar, -3 Flames of the Firebrand, + 4 Skullcrack, +3 Burning Earth. Pretty straightforward.

Jund Midrange: -3 Flames of the Firebrand, +3 Burning Earth. I think it's useful to keep all Pillars and Shocks to deal with mana dorks early.

Bant Hexproof: -3 Flames of the Firebrand, -4 Searing Spear, +3 Blasphemous Act, +4
Skullcrack. Keep Pillar in to deal with Voice, though that may not be necessary since we generally attack through it. I took out Spear instead of Shock to deal with turn one dorks because a turn two Geist creates a lot of problems. Blasphemous Act is our only out to a super beefed Hexproof dude. In fact we may want the full four.

Three-color Aristocrats: -4 Shock, +1 Flames of the Firebrand, +3 Burning Earth. If running Lingering Souls, maybe bring in +2 Electrickery in place of one Flames and one Pillar.

Naya Blitz and other red-based aggro: -1 Searing Spear, +1 Flames of the Firebrand. If they're running a lot of X/1s, -3 Searing Spear, +1 Flames of the Firebrand, +2 Electrickery.

General Comments
1) You haven't lived until you've had two Young Pyromancers or two Guttersnipes on the board.
2) Pitching Chandra's Phoenix with Faithless Looting and Wild Guess feels so good. Later in the game, Faithless Looting becomes [mana]R[/mana]: Draw two cards.
Ridiculously powerful. I actually found I don't cast Phoenix very often even though I have the full playset.
3) I haven't had this much fun playing a deck since I was playing the Liquimetal Coating budget deck last year when I first got back into Magic.[/quote]
4) My Ghost Quarters used to be Mutavault, but after running into so many decks on MTGO with ridiculously greedy mana bases, I decided to play Ghost Quarter instead. It can really ruin Jund's day, especially that new crappy Jedi Jund deck everyone's forcing to make their mirror matches more favorable. I heard Wasteland was good.
5) Running Faithless Looting AND Wild Guess in the same deck really cuts down your mulligan rate. There honestly aren't many hands I'll ship when I have one or both of these in my starting hand. I REALLY like that feeling.

[Valdarith]

I've been playing the above list a bit and I really like it. I feel like every matchup is winnable with this deck, though I have yet to play Bant Hexproof and that seems to be a terrible matchup in game one. I'll have to run that gauntlet against my friend's deck. Nevertheless, I suggest some of you give this deck a try.

I've thought about a blue splash for some cards, but I'm not sure if it's even worth it. We gain more 1cmc spells and cantrips as well as Nivix Cyclops for an alternate win con at the sake of dropping Hellrider. We could probably still run Burning Earth to deal with control, but I'm not sure if it's necessary.

[deck]
Creatures (12)
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Guttersnipe
4 Nivix Cyclops

Spells (28)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Shock
4 Thought Scour
3 Artful Dodge
3 Desperate Ravings
4 Izzet Charm
2 Turn / Burn

Lands (20)
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Izzet Guildgate
2
Island
9 Mountain
[/deck]

Turn / Burn could be Mizzium Skin as a counter to Electrickery and targeted removal.

[Yarpus]

You really should play Snapcasters while being in UR. And Quicken might be much better than Thought Scour unless you like to mill yourself with that. I even remember first deck I assembled after the break I've had from MTG... UR Counterburn. Even while it was crappy (hey, the manabase was terrible) - it still went 4-1 during unofficial polish championships. I suck at drafting so didn't achieved anything ... So, I'd propose something like that.

[deck]Creatures (8):
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

Spells (32):
4 Faithless Looting
4 Quicken
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Searing Spear
4 Izzet Charm
4 Turn / Burn
4 Thoughtflare

Lands:
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Steam Vents
4 Izzet Guildgate
8 Mountain[/deck]

Another cards to consider here? Syncopate, Temporal Mastery, Think Twice, Bonfire of the Damned. Ral Zarek would fit creature's theme far more.

[windstrider]

I played several games with this over the weekend. It was a lot of fun to play. The sideboard is an attempt to Go Big.
Pyromancer is just nuts with Hellrider. The singleton copy of Pike even showed up as a nice little wildcard addition to the deck. Chandra was excellent for either pinging blockers out of the way or drawing extra gas as needed. I got to use her ultimate on a Spear for 9 damage followed by flashing back Devil's Play for another 5. Good use of extra lands.

[deck]
Creatures: 16
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Hellrider

Spells: 17
1 Devil's Play
4 Pillar of Flame
3 Shock
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Searing Spear
3 Brimstone Volley

Planeswalkers/Artifacts: 4
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Runechanter's Pike

Lands: 23
20 Mountain
3 Mutavault

Sideboard: 15
1 Mountain
4 Ash Zealot
1 Mizzium Mortars
3 Traitorous Blood
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Blasphemous Act
[/deck]

[Valdarith]

You really should play Snapcasters while being in UR.

Not necessarily. He's a phenomenal card. One of my favorites, actually. But in that specific shell he isn't as good because we want our spells to be cheap. Snapcaster makes them two cmc more expensive, and with all the draw and filter spells that deck has, he's not exactly necessary as you assert.

And Quicken might be much better than Thought Scour unless you like to mill yourself with that.

Not sure why you would think that. Quicken is strictly worse than Thought Scour here with all of the flashback spells the deck runs, not to mention there are only a couple of sorcery speed spells in the deck. And if you want to run Snapcaster that's all the more
reason to run Thought Scour.

I even remember first deck I assembled after the break I've had from MTG... UR Counterburn. Even while it was crappy (hey, the manabase was terrible) - it still went 4-1 during unofficial polish championships. I suck at drafting so didn't achieved anything ... So, I'd propose something like that.

[deck]Creatures (8):
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

Spells (32):
4 Faithless Looting
4 Quicken
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Searing Spear
4 Izzet Charm
4 Turn / Burn
4 Thoughtflare

Lands:
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Steam Vents
4 Izzet Guildgate
8 Mountain[/deck]

Another cards to consider here? Syncopate, Temporal Mastery, Think Twice, Bonfire of the Damned. Ral Zarek would fit creature's theme far more.

4 Thoughtflare on 20 mana is pretty ambitious. Also, you only have 12 burn spells in the list. Seems rather weak.

[zemanjaski]

I played several games with this over the weekend. It was a lot of fun to play. The sideboard is an attempt to Go Big.
Pyromancer is just nuts with Hellrider. The singleton copy of Pike even showed up as a nice little wildcard addition to the deck. Chandra was excellent for either pinging blockers out of the way or drawing extra gas as needed. I got to use her ultimate on a Spear for 9 damage followed by flashing back Devil's Play for another 5. Good use of extra lands.

[deck]
Creatures: 16
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Hellrider

Spells: 17
1 Devil's Play
4 Pillar of Flame
3 Shock
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Searing Spear
3 Brimstone Volley

Planeswalkers/Artifacts: 4
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Runechanter's Pike

nLands: 23
20 Mountain
3 Mutavault

Sideboard: 15
1 Mountain
4 Ash Zealot
1 Mizzium Mortars
3 Traitorous Blood
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Blasphemous Act
[/deck]

I like this a lot, but 7 Shocks maindeck feels pretty terrible.

[zemanjaski]

I was working on an RB version of that deck; the appeal been that Pyromancer triggers off any instant/sorcery; they don't have to be red (I always intuitively think that they do).

That gives you Rakdos' Return and Doom Blade, which are obviously a big game.