[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[redthirst]

I was counting Stomping Grounds as another W source... why aren't those Clifftop Retreats?

Is it just so you have 16 sources for a first turn Militant?

@photo - MBC can put a hurting on an Aggro meta. Lots of removal, some life gain, splash blue for Augur/Snapcaster, and top out at something ridiculous like Grisslebrand.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah; I can probably fiddle the numbers a little. If you take out the militants (a debatable inclusion I suppose) you can really do whatever you want with the mana base.

[Fax]

Guys, may I have your attention please. I know you probably already knew, but

windstrider is an incredibly awesome guy.

Wow.

[TubeHunter]

I think I had a revelation... I was thinking about the new Ogre from M14, and about if he was good enough for aggro, when I realized, thats not where he fits! He fits more in a Naya shaped Fatties deck! Turn 4 ogre, turn 5 Wolfir? 17 You?

[photodyer]

Heya Fax! Dan told me what he had in mind for you...he is a pretty damn cool dude. My happy came from getting all 3 Glissas signed--Brom, Rahn and Argyle.

[photodyer]

@redthirst - I was of the same mind...black just seems the best way to lay out a slew of weenie hand-puking aggro decks. I don't know about which splash though...there are strong options in each direction. Green brings Thragtusk to sac for value to Disciple of Bolas, Blue brings Snaps/Auger, Red offers Temblor, Bonfire and Olivia, and white Ghost Dad and lifelink stuff.

[windstrider]

So if this goes in M14, we are officially saying goodbye to Thundermaw (takes his slot as a dragon mythic). It doesn't look as playable though.

No haste?

[Alex]

Time for a little metagaming...

Kansas States were utterly dominated by aggro--5 Naya, 2 Gruul and a Bantchantments deck at top 8. For Game Day (my LGS is in KS), I'm considering black-based control or Grixis, the object being to hit them for multiple-for-ones and play some draw as well for overall CA. Am I in the right neighborhood or in the wrong universe altogether? I'm leaning towards Rock or Junk control (green for ramp as both Naya and Gruul carry enough removal to shoot down Crypt Ghast), but perhaps midrange makes more sense? I know that aggro as a rule whomps control, but taking a sweeper approach followed by landing big threats against removal-light decks seems a logical strategy. Thoughts?

Gotta go get some sleep as I have to pick multiple kids up
from band rehearsal before work tonight...I'd very much appreciate any and all input.

Analyzing a metagame is less about what you think will be popular and more about what you think can win. There's a very fine line, and I think that as you grow as a player you come to appreciate that rogue deckbuilding requires two very important things: a willingness to do your research, and an ability to correctly gauge the oncoming weeks.

That being said, you don't want to be playing black based control right now. It isn't good against a vast majority of the metagame, and since aggro is popular where you are, your better bet would be to play something that is strong against aggro while not being weak to basically everything else.

Right now it's really hard to say for sure what will be the "next big deck," people are defaulting to aggro because it's safe. If a deck that abuses [card]Obzedat's Aid[/card] and Omniscience is the
next big thing, you're going to be pretty sour if you spend any amount of time and energy tuning a mono black list that can't contend with it.

[Alex]

Also never take advice on MTG from me, I'm literally autistic irl.

[rcwraspy]

Well, Cremate already fits in MBC because of Junk Rites... but I know that was just an example of a larger point.

[redthirst]

Also never take advice on MTG from me, I'm literally autistic irl.

I've heard that...

[Alex]

Well, Cremate already fits in MBC because of Junk Rites... but I know that was just an example of a larger point.

Tormod's Crypt is a card too, but yes, larger point, etc.

[Self Medicated]

Happy birthday Alex! They all start to blur together the older you get, so enjoy this one!

[Link]

I personally think the G/b Golgari lists with mutilate and victim of night are freakin awesome against aggro and can have a whole SB dedicated to control

[Alex]

Green is really just the best color right now, honestly. There's almost no good reason to not be playing it in some amount.

[LP, of the Fires]

I actually used to be a LOT better at metagaming when I first started playing competitive magic, mostly due to everything being new to me and having little to no preconceived notions about what was good. I would literally brew decks in my hand at school, then see these brews taking down PTQs.

Now, I'm much better as a deck tuner than a rogue builder. It's pretty hard to brew and your usually better off picking something established and tweaking numbers to suit your purposes.

If I had to brew something, I like grixis control. You get to kill all creatures ever, have amazing sideboard options, and can go toe to toe with Jund on card advantage. Plus, you have an amazing 'walker line up if you choose that route. The only thing the grixis shell doesn't have is reliable lifegain outside of tribute and even that is sufficient most of the time.

Personally, I like playing agro in an agro environment because I think I have
a significant edge in agro mirrors due to knowing Z

If you want something cure, I saw Green aristocrats top 4 a modo premier event I believe that played Varloz, Voice, and Advent of the wurm instead of reckoner, falkenrath, and Act.

For something that actually has a good chance of crushing agro, there's U/W flash. Augurs, Unsummons, Snapcasters, Charms and GoST are hard to beat. I'm pretty sure the only reason I beat these types of decks at my LGS is because I scout and aggressive mull hands that would otherwise get stomped by Augur of bolas(double stromkirk noble+not searing spear on the draw was a snap mull to the shock of my spectators. I definitely won that game.)

Also, Alex is right(ish). You can play non-green decks and still win a tournament imo, but green really is the best color. The worst are probably blue and/or black.

[Link]

On 22 land it would be ambitious to include even a single stronghold. You could board them I guess.

I think its ambitious enough already... Naya colors without caverns+Cacklers/Dryads at the 1 drop... I just can't see this being consistent Zem, sorry, sidin with Red here

[LP, of the Fires]

I KIND of like militant. It's one of those underplayed cards that is a lot better then it seems and a fine beater on its own. I would however prefer cutting a land for a slayers. With basically no top end, you're gonna want a mana sink and I'd expect the deck being forced into the midgame if ever your opponent plays 2 removal spells so granting a caclker haste on turn 5 seems like a reasonably medium game.

[Alex]

Also, Alex is right(ish). You can play non-green decks and still win a tournament imo, but green really is the best color. The worst are probably blue and/or black.

Blue still has quite a bit going for it. Dissipate is still one of the better cards in the format, even WITH all of the uncounterable stuff around. A lot of those spells aren't seeing much play, so countermagic isn't really that weak. Cavern of Souls is a thing sometimes, but it's more inclined to fix a person's mana than it is to be played just to screw over control players.

It also (obviously) has Snapcaster which is one of the more powerful Magic cards ever printed. So yeah, it has stuff going for it. It's actually similar to green in the sense that you're not going to
play it as a primary color a lot of the time, but it is probably the second strongest support color behind green.

[Platypus]

Well...it was my time today to do a totally useless stupid thing. I visited the capital today and took the local commuter train down to the local cardshop to drop of some cards for credits. It was one stop away. On the way back I for some reason didn't buy a ticket, because "they never check them on that part". Well, guess what...they did, right before the train entered the station. That was 80€ down the drain for no reason what so ever. Fucking stupid...

[Link]

Also been a busy week-end/birthday on Monday so this is reaallllllly delayed.

Writing the full thing in the R/g Sligh deck, but for those of you who were watching the stream or tuned in late here's my recap of the Top 8 Match vs. Blue Rites (aka Red H8ter):


G1: Lost the dice roll. I really needed this one, and hadn't won a single roll all day. Wasn't sweating it though. Hadn't scouted this guy, because I was running on 3 hours of sleep and took a nap when I ID'd the 7th round. He slams down a bunch of Bant lands, plays literally NOTHING for 3 turns. No Azo charms, no nothing.

My board is stromkirk cackler, LM I think. 3 creatures, with 2 spears in hand, 2 boars, and a reckoner. I'm on 2 lands. I swing in and get him low, to 9. I could drop another boar, but I figure I can just haste it out and he could be holding a verdict.

He untaps for his 4th turn. Slams down a Acidic slime.... FUCK. targets my crag, in
response I spear his face, he's at SIX. I have another spear in hand, need that last land and its game. I guess I could've speared the slime so my noble could grow more, but I rather have him dead before thrags start dropping.

Topdeck a Reckoner, get him to 2. He drops thrag and its over from there. I draw another reckoner... He flickers the slime, no lands. I don't scoop because I still don't know what he's playing.

Eventually he plays tracker's instinct, which I read, he flips over a godless shrine, AoS, unburial rites. I scoop knowing what monster he's playing...

He slams down 7 cards from his SB. 4 Verdicts, 3 Centaur Healers, (didn't know about the verdicts or expect them really. Figureed he splashed for progenitor mimic which I found out later was true). http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1126023
His greedy ass decklist can be found there.

SB? Don't remember
honestly. I took out something for Pillars....

G2 My first hand was double noble, rootbound crag. Shipped it. Got a much better hand with firefist and noble
He just has two deathrite shamans and a centaur healer to slow me down. Firefist striker works like a boss and I win even after forgetting a noble trigger. He tries to make me scared of spot removal by asking "any effects before damage?" but I slam down bloodrush for the win without second thought.


SB out nobles for pillars. Look at skullcrack for a looong time. realize I don't want it. Realize I should've listened to Khaos and Zem instead of being a fucking punk, could've had pyreheart wolves there or anything against junk rites (I even posted awhile back wolves are the nuts against rites too. Seems like I should've made room for them in my list? Herp)

G3 I keep my 7. It has cackler, LM, boar, pillar, 3 lands? Should I have shipped this? Seemed very decent. Not the nuts, but decent. He keeps a REALLY greedy hand. He had two
taplands I guarantee it. He rips a breeding pool for his 2nd turn and throws that down, with his buddies commenting in the back what an awesome draw that was. FUCk thsi guy can't even stumble when he keep sshit hands...

Meanwhile I'm drawing lands too. A total of 9 that game.

He gets a centaur healer out, it eats a guy and a pillar.

He gets lingering souls down without black to flash it back. I could've attackwed with just Boar and Cackler here to force my LM to be unbound for a topdeck or just make him chump two souls and I keep my board. Instead I swing out because of the pressure, I'm drawing lands and he's black screwed, I need to get him as low as I fuckign can.

He drops ANOTHER centaur healer. I topdeck a hellrider, again consider dropping him and not swinging out to keep my rider back for a better board state, but I just want him dead. Centaur eats hellrider.

He topdecks godless shrine.

I don't think I need to say much more after that. Thrag, thrag, Unburial rites Centaur,
Lingering souls, he's back up to 18. Only other gas I drew was GCR that game 6 turns too late.

Its whatever, I should've had G1 before the hate easy. Even then, I attribute it to poor shuffling because I didn't see a single thing from G1 or G2 and just a huge landpocket G3, whereas I got land screweed with reckoners and stuff G1.

Variance got me, and I'm by no means UNHAPPY I got to Top8 of my first real tournament, but I just wish I had learned some lesson with a top 8 lost. Misplayed something, Idk. I just felt dirty, and hatred for junk rites even more.

Then my car doesn't shift into 3rd, it just slips out of gear and coasts. It starts raining (my convertible top leaks in the rain). My deck failed me, now my car failed me. Was pissed as ALL fuck, exhausted too. Was a shitty way to end what should've been a happy top8.

I'll get em next time. game day AND PTQ coming up. I really want to stomp this PTQ.

It was a great experience looking back though. Met some chill people on the way up,
had a bunch of groupies rooting me on saying I was tearing it up. Had you guys watching the stream. Sorry to let you guys down, that was definitely not my best game (my gf said it was painful to watch and you could see my exhaustion toward the end anyway).

[Link]

I KIND of like militant. It's one of those underplayed cards that is a lot better then it seems and a fine beater on its own. I would however prefer cutting a land for a slayers. With basically no top end, you're gonna want a mana sink and I'd expect the deck being forced into the midgame if ever your opponent plays 2 removal spells so granting a caclker haste on turn 5 seems like a reasonably medium game.

I like Militant too.

I just rather the list be a G/r aggro build instead of trying to cram opposite color 1 drops into a mana base =/

I think a G build that tops out at vorapede (only own one copy atm =/) should eb abused right now. Splashing red or white depending on your flavor (rootborn defenses/selesnya charm vs. Burn,
Rampager, and Domri)

[redthirst]

I KIND of like militant. It's one of those underplayed cards that is a lot better then it seems and a fine beater on its own. I would however prefer cutting a land for a slayers. With basically no top end, you're gonna want a mana sink and I'd expect the deck being forced into the midgame if ever your opponent plays 2 removal spells so granting a caclker haste on turn 5 seems like a reasonably medium game.

I like Militant too.

I just rather the list be a G/r aggro build instead of trying to cram opposite color 1 drops into a mana base =/

I think a G build that tops out at
vorapede (only own one copy atm =/) should eb abused right now. Splashing red or white depending on your flavor (rootborn defenses/selesnya charm vs. Burn, Rampager, and Domri)

Ditto. Militant is an excellent Aggro 1 drop in a G based Aggro deck:

4 Militant
4 Experiment One
2-3 Ulvenwald Tracker

That's a pretty good foundation for Aggro.

[Link]

oooo

ulvenwald tracker IS a card, isn't it >_>b

[hamfactorial]

The mad brewing here makes me smile.

[LP, of the Fires]

G3 your hand was mostly perfect. G1, I think you made the right call not playing boar. It would be really hard to put him on a deck when you see bant lands + nothing and I'd probably play around verdict as well. In that situation, depending on your range as far as "mental game" goes, the best you could do is start talking and see if he leaks information. Sure you also leak info that you have a dude in hand, but he mostly knows that anyways. The other consideration is what's worse for you on turn 4, verdict or Thrag? If he slams thrag, he goes up to 14? Yeah, I actually think you do consider overextending. You can basically assume he kept 3/4 land, farseek, and action spells and depending on if he knew what you where playing or not, I wouldn't actually put him on verdict since most bant decks are more midrangy.

Stream of conscious thinking ftw. Should have played the boar.

[Valdarith]

I feel like Bant tokens could be a thing too. It'd play like UW flash except it'd only be splashing blue for counters, Snapcaster Mage, and Azorius Charm.

Actually now that I think about it, this could be a sick deck.

[deck]
Creatures (8)
3 Augur of Bolas
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage

Spells (28)
3 Syncopate
3 Selesnya Charm
2 Azorius Charm
2 Simic Charm
4 Call of the Conclave
3 Druid's Deliverance
2 Rootborn Defenses
3 Midnight Haunting
4 Advent of the Wurm
2 Rewind

Lands (24)
4 Temple Garden
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Breeding Pool
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Hinterland Harbor
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Plains
1 Forest[/deck]

[LP, of the Fires]

Augur, Snapcaster, and Advent does nasty things if you have a good shell. I also think it's worth playing Gavony with midnight haunting. Call of the Conclave I will forever see as a dubious card though. I'm also not a fan of triple syncopate. I just have an unnatural dislike for that card so it with a grain of salt. Rootborn defense seems largely unncecssary as anti-wrath tech since you're just playing flash threats. I like druid's deliverance a lot more since it's cheaper and simply much more relevant against more archetypes.

[Khaospawn]

A buddy of mine contacted me the other night about borrowing a deck to play an FNM with. He got out of the game a few months ago and hasn't really kept up with the newer cards so I'm gonna give him something simple to play with.

I'm thinking a of going with a twist on Fate's deck since it's relatively easy to explain how it works and I really want to see Pyrewild Shaman in action.

[deck]
Beaters (36)
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Stiker
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Hellrider
2 Pyrewild Shaman

Burn (4)
4 Searing Spear

Land (20)
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Grounds
12 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Volcanic Strength
4 Skullcrack
3 Domri Rade[/deck]

Yes, it play Skullcrack in the board. I'm putting in there for a couple of reasons. For one, I need to give my buddy an "idiot proof"
sideboard - "See lifegain or Fog decks? Play Skullcrack." Two, there are a couple of said lifegain and Fog decks at my LGS.

[Valdarith]

Augur, Snapcaster, and Advent does nasty things if you have a good shell. I also think it's worth playing Gavony with midnight haunting. Call of the Conclave I will forever see as a dubious card though. I'm also not a fan of triple syncopate. I just have an unnatural dislike for that card so it with a grain of salt. Rootborn defense seems largely unncecssary as anti-wrath tech since you're just playing flash threats. I like druid's deliverance a lot more since it's cheaper and simply much more relevant against more archetypes.

I think a singleton Gavony Township could fit in place of a Plains.

Regarding Call of the Conclave, the card is amazing in aggro matchups and is great value for two mana. I think you could argue it's
inclusion just as you could Augur of Bolas, except that Augur is usually a cantrip that doesn't kill attackers often while Call is not a cantrip that often does kill attackers while also serving as a populate target. 4 may or may not be the correct number though.

Triple Syncopate might be too much. I'd probably go to two. I like that it exiles and deals with all spells. This deck will usually be keeping mana open so it seems like it would fit in the deck.

Agree on Rootborn Defenses though. I forgot to cut that to a singleton after having a revalation that I should include Simic Charm in the deck. Simic Charm serves a similar purpose while remaining flexible.

[Khaospawn]

Geez, that new dragon sucks.

At its best, maybe in a Kaarthus EDH deck?

[Khaospawn]

@Fate - I'm curious to hear your opinion of the deck I just posted. Thoughts on Pyrewild in the build?

[Valdarith]

I'd add a fourth GCR. I've played around with varying numbers and found that I've always wanted the full playset.

[Khaospawn]

I'd add a fourth GCR. I've played around with varying numbers and found that I've always wanted the full playset.

I suppose I could take out a Pyewild for another GCR. GCR puts so much damage through where Pyrewild doesn't.

[Valdarith]

That's actually what I was going to suggest. I think Pyrewild is a good one-of but nothing more. GCR will ALWAYS be relevant. I just love how it forces some unfavorable blocks for our opponent and still gets damage through with trample. It gets even funnier when you start bluffing it.

[Link]

running errands one sec. I generally like pyrewild better in kdw with zdLotz and hounds

[LP, of the Fires]

I've been blown out so many times by GCR in testing that I mostly quite blocking with Olivia unless I'm gonna die.

[rcwraspy]

If you're splashing the green, GCR>Pyrewild all day erry day. Mono red Pyrewilds may have a home.

There are also some lists floating around that have had a modicum of success which lean more heavily on bloodrush, with Pyrewild and Slaughterhorn and/or Wasteland Viper. If you're building for more tricks in G/R or R/G then Pyrewild could work. But the deck overall isn't as powerful.

[Link]

for rg though I think rancor is much better.for recursive dmg. seen lists with itas a 2of start placing. was considering hellrider, land, 2 rancors for mauler, but mauler plays better with wolf and rider

[Link]

G3 your hand was mostly perfect. G1, I think you made the right call not playing boar. It would be really hard to put him on a deck when you see bant lands + nothing and I'd probably play around verdict as well. In that situation, depending on your range as far as "mental game" goes, the best you could do is start talking and see if he leaks information. Sure you also leak info that you have a dude in hand, but he mostly knows that anyways. The other consideration is what's worse for you on turn 4, verdict or Thrag? If he slams thrag, he goes up to 14? Yeah, I actually think you do consider overextending. You can basically assume he kept 3/4 land, farseek, and action spells and depending on if he knew what you where playing or not, I wouldn'
t actually put him on verdict since most bant decks are more midrangy.

Stream of conscious thinking ftw. Should have played the boar.

thanks for the advice. Yeah I had more gas so the boar would've been the best bet against a thrag/resto angel hand. especially if he was on the advent plan.