[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[RedNihilist]

So, I'll try to raise Z's frustration a lil' bit with a stupid question: did anyone here try some UG "aggro" build?

I'm trying to see if I can come up with something after seeing a BUG player gp T1 Experiment One into T2 Young Wolf + Rapid Hybridization and - while not as explosive as many BTE nut draws we're seeing after GTC, I was wondering if there could be a way to make a deck like that more consistent.

I've tried this:
[deck]
Creatures
4 Young Wolf
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Cloudfin Raptor
4 Experiment One
4 Zameck Guildmage
4 Master Biomancer
3 Invisible Stalker

Spells
3 Rancor
4 Simic Charm
4 Rapid Hybridization

Lands
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hinterland Harbor
7 Forest
7 Island
[/deck]

...but, honestly, Invisible Stalker doesn't belong here, 11 spells are a bit too many, Cloudfin Raptor, Zameck Guildmage and
Master Biomancer enable some random shenanigans but seem very underperforming.
Also, I know I'm a newbye, if posting such a list is considered littering just point it out so I can take it down before enraging redthirst's noodly appendage

[Link]

I'm thinking of cutting on the Hellriders altogether to keep the curve low, though thats what the testing will be for.

then its GWC vs. Hellrider for the 4 drop spot, and I think we can all agree hellrider is just better? If only for the fact that he is a 3/3 guy himself

[Christen]

Hellrider finishes games so I won't argue about this. I'd still test though, if only to see for myself how GWC acts as a worse Hellrider.

[zemanjaski]

So, I'll try to raise Z's frustration a lil' bit with a stupid question: did anyone here try some UG "aggro" build?

I'm trying to see if I can come up with something after seeing a BUG player gp T1 Experiment One into T2 Young Wolf + Rapid Hybridization and - while not as explosive as many BTE nut draws we're seeing after GTC, I was wondering if there could be a way to make a deck like that more consistent.

I've tried this:
[deck]
Creatures
4 Young Wolf
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Cloudfin Raptor
4 Experiment One
4 Zameck Guildmage
4 Master Biomancer
3 Invisible Stalker

Spells
3 Rancor
4 Simic Charm
4 Rapid Hybridization

Lands
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hinterland
Harbor
7 Forest
7 Island
[/deck]

...but, honestly, Invisible Stalker doesn't belong here, 11 spells are a bit too many, Cloudfin Raptor, Zameck Guildmage and Master Biomancer enable some random shenanigans but seem very underperforming.
Also, I know I'm a newbye, if posting such a list is considered littering just point it out so I can take it down before enraging redthirst's noodly appendage

Raptor, Biomancer and Stalker aren't good enough. Guildmage is probably fine as a 2-3 of; he can be a pretty powerful engine going long.

One thing the deck does need are some natural ways to get a 2nd evolve trigger onto experiment one; I have seen Augur of Bolas (1/3 to trigger) or Call of the Conclave (3/3) used for this purpose.

[RedNihilist]

The Augur of Bolas is very likely to be a Vanilla 1/3 though, as this list plays just 8 instant/sorceries.
Call of the Conclave is white and I don't feel very confident that splashing a third color would be wise.
I recognize that just having Rapid Hybridization, Undead Strangeroot Geist and Master Biomancer as means to trigger the second evolve is just not consistent.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah sorry mate, I had been looking at Bant Delver lists this week and when I saw your deck I just imagined it was similar. My bad.

[photodyer]

Swamps are still my favorite basic land. Partly due to MBI, partly due to Drana in EDH.

Also I get the "you're kind of a contentious prick" thing a lot. It isn't like that. I just try and see things as broadly as possible, and at times I don't convey that very well. I'm a very "understand both sides of the coin" kind of guy, so I'll often instigate debate as a means to try and understand the other side of an argument better.

Point of clarification in consideration of seeing both sides of a thing--I stated that you were contentious, but I'm not calling you a prick. While the source of causation is different, my son is also contentious, but neither he nor you are mean-spirited about it (unless given provocation). In his
case, it comes from a very black/white view of things rather than your broad view; he cannot stand by and allow something to be (in his estimation) misstated, regardless of context. Total Sheldon. In your case, it's totally in keeping with your strength as an editor--you seek to see things stated in the most-correct manner. And also quite honestly, I'm engaging in a bit of pot/kettle/black...I am far from the most laissez faire in both attitude and action myself. And I certainly don't shy from debate, though case in point I can be cranky about it when I've not had enough sleep.

[RedNihilist]

Yeah sorry mate, I had been looking at Bant Delver lists this week and when I saw your deck I just imagined it was similar. My bad.

No problem, I'm the one being unreasonable in trying to have a list like that work
Now that you've mentioned Bant Delver, though, I think that after work I'll try to sub in Snapcaster Mage and Quirion Dryad, but I'm probably just wasting time

[Alex]

n your case, it's totally in keeping with your strength as an editor--you seek to see things stated in the most-correct manner.

It's really more of an exercise in self improvement more than anything. I really do just want to know/learn/absorb all possible information, and it isn't hard to do so as a speed reader. Sometimes you have to poke and prod people to get more information.

[photodyer]

Ah, Firefly-loving brethren...I hope you get as big a smile from this as I did! From redbubble.com.

[redthirst]

Ah, Firefly-loving brethren...I hope you get as big a smile from this as I did! From redbubble.com.

All that needs is a FoS banner up top...

[windstrider]

I think one of my many problems is that I get exhausted explaining things that I feel are self-evident; even when if I would just take a simple half-step back, I would appreciate that they are not.

Two truths about writing:
1. Most people write at too formal of a level.
2. The writer usually knows more about the subject than the audience.

The first happens because of the perception that writing is a more formal mode of communication. People tend to use bigger words and more complex sentence structures than necessary. Universities are some of the best examples of this.

The second one is a major pitfall for a lot of writers. Since something is apparent to the writer, that person doesn't feel the need to explain it. It sometimes doesn't even
cross their mind that they should explain it. Simplification in writing is one of the more difficult concepts to teach people.

[zemanjaski]

I think I avoid 1 (as an Australian, it's hard to be formal, let alone too formal), but definitely am guilty of 2; in my defence, I like to assume my wider audience isn't mostly stupid, even if they in fact are; so it's kind of complimentary I suppose?

[redthirst]

I like to assume my wider audience isn't mostly stupid, even if they in fact are; so it's kind of complimentary I suppose?

"You're a lot stupider than I assume anyone is capable of being. You're welcome."

[rcwraspy]

G'morning everybody.

Hope everybody's doing well.

I'm definitely excited to hear the rumors of Chandra's Phoenix in M14. I had been silently speculating that since the set seems so focused on Chandra, so I'm glad to see it.

[redthirst]

Hopefully, the new Chandra will be baller and have a direct damage mode to go with it.

[windstrider]

I think I avoid 1 (as an Australian, it's hard to be formal, let alone too formal), but definitely am guilty of 2; in my defence, I like to assume my wider audience isn't mostly stupid, even if they in fact are; so it's kind of complimentary I suppose?

In a way, sure, you want to challenge the audience a bit. But if that audience doesn't understand your point, then they're likely to perceive you as being arrogant, at which point communication stops.

Another truism about communication: Meaning is in the mind, and no two minds are alike. Two people can look at the exact same thing or situation, and we can both come away with different interpretations. Add to that the misunderstandings that words themselves generate, and it's easy to see how
written communication is such a clusterfuck sometimes.

[photodyer]

But if that audience doesn't understand your point, then they're likely to perceive you as being arrogant, at which point communication stops.

Another truism about communication: Meaning is in the mind, and no two minds are alike. Two people can look at the exact same thing or situation, and we can both come away with different interpretations. Add to that the misunderstandings that words themselves generate, and it's easy to see how written communication is such a clusterfuck sometimes.

Too true, oh stately seneschal! Add to your excellent points the fact that the written word carries no inherent emotional cues and it's easy to see how we get things bass-ackwards. That is one of the big drawbacks tied to formalization of written
communication--we transpose the rules of interactive speech. When someone "talks at someone" in formal language, it is generally done with the intention of demonstrating dominance/mastery and/or "lecturing" that person for a transgression. Thus when we write formally, people tend to attach a harsh tone in their interpretations whether one is intended or not. I get gigged on that all the time...people think I'm trying to browbeat when I'm actually just trying to be clear and leave no room for misinterpretation of what I'm saying. That's why I tend to abuse the hell out of emoticons on boards; I'm not trying to be cute, but rather am trying to more exactly communicate my intended tone.

[Self Medicated]

I'm excited that Phoenix will be reprinted, but as it's a 3 drop, will it fit into a deck with Reckoner? Or are we talking a whole different deck built around Phoenix?

[LP, of the Fires]

Level of discourse in the last two pages has pretty much made my day.

@Alezamski: In normal social settings, I'm pretty much the perfect communicator. Talking about magic, I come off as the most egotistical prick sometimes when talking to people because as James said, I assume people aren't stupid, then they are and I tend to brutal shred there "logic".

Strider hit the nail on the head. It really is hard to simplify things. I can teach a 13 year old how congress works(happened yesterday when he wanted to understand the flavor of a filibuster counter) and I can teach grown adults how to do algebra(very hard actually when someone has gone 40 years of life with a phobia of numbers), but telling people why vexing devil is bad? Convincing my playtest partner how everything he thinks about esper is...flawed? Dealing with my store trying to get me to play vexing devil and telling me pyreheart wolf is crap? That I
struggle with.

[LP, of the Fires]

I think I'd be fine if the new Chandra had +1 shock a creature as an ability. Or even better 0, shock a creature or player, though that's probably OP.

As far as Chandra's phoenix and old RDW, that deck gave me an appreciation for agro. The games that didn't go turn 2 shrine, you had to work for your wins. But as others have said, the deck was fine and good(even if I hated stormblood berserker as a card).

It's also very true that "best decks" stifle innovation. That's why original Rav block was amazing. It was a tier 2 metagame from Kamigawa Rav->Rav-Spiral for the most part. I don't remember one truly dominant deck, so there were great rewards for innovating. Great decks from that Era:

Satanic Slight(Rakdos agro with dark confidant)
Gruul Aggro(multiple variations and Pro Tour winning decklist)
Boros agro(I remember an 18 land version because boros Garrison was that good. Also, boros swiftblade
with sunforger anyone?)
Ghazi Glare(World Champion winning selesnya deck of amazingness)
The advent of Tapout blue focused on Keiga.
Draw Go dimir.
Tron decks of all flavors.
Solar Flare(actual solar flare)
Solar Pox(had a pox engine)
Angel Fire(dega and Raka versions)
Dragonstorm(ACTUAL COMBO)

Yada yada yada, I went nostalgic, I could go on. Best period of magic ever.

[Valdarith]

I'm excited that Phoenix will be reprinted, but as it's a 3 drop, will it fit into a deck with Reckoner? Or are we talking a whole different deck built around Phoenix?

Different deck entirely.

[hamfactorial]

Chandra's Phoenix is being jammed immediately into my Dega burn deck. Get hyped!

[Khaospawn]

Chandra's Phoenix is being jammed immediately into my Dega burn deck. Get hyped!

I'm gonna jam mine down my opponent's throat. And then drunkenly piss on him.

[redthirst]

I'm excited that Phoenix will be reprinted, but as it's a 3 drop, will it fit into a deck with Reckoner? Or are we talking a whole different deck built around Phoenix?

Different deck entirely.

Evasion + immediate relevance + incredible resilience = an amazing creature.

Phoenix didn't get a whole lot of love the first time around for whatever reason, but it's a great aggro creature and could certainly compete favorably with Boros Reckoner for deck space.

[Alex]

Dealing with my store trying to get me to play vexing devil and telling me pyreheart wolf is crap? That I struggle with.

Why would you struggle with that? Just shut up and take your free product graciously!

Coliseum was full of people like this when I played there, and I used to win a lot more than I should have. (Which is to say if I didn't win every event, I was in second.)

[Link]

def picking up a set of phoenix while they are still a buck a piece

[Link]

I think I'd be fine if the new Chandra had +1 shock a creature as an ability. Or even better 0, shock a creature or player, though that's probably OP.

As far as Chandra's phoenix and old RDW, that deck gave me an appreciation for agro. The games that didn't go turn 2 shrine, you had to work for your wins. But as others have said, the deck was fine and good(even if I hated stormblood berserker as a card).

It's also very true that "best decks" stifle innovation. That's why original Rav block was amazing. It was a tier 2 metagame from Kamigawa Rav->Rav-Spiral for the most part. I don't remember one truly dominant deck, so there were great rewards for innovating. Great decks from that Era:

Satanic Slight(Rakdos agro with dark confidant)
nGruul Aggro(multiple variations and Pro Tour winning decklist)
Boros agro(I remember an 18 land version because boros Garrison was that good. Also, boros swiftblade with sunforger anyone?)
Ghazi Glare(World Champion winning selesnya deck of amazingness)
The advent of Tapout blue focused on Keiga.
Draw Go dimir.
Tron decks of all flavors.
Solar Flare(actual solar flare)
Solar Pox(had a pox engine)
Angel Fire(dega and Raka versions)
Dragonstorm(ACTUAL COMBO)

Yada yada yada, I went nostalgic, I could go on. Best period of magic ever.

I don't have the "times of olde" for comparison, but I don't think current standard is all that stifled either. Junk rites is pretty much uncontestedly the "best" deck, but it isn't unbeatable or 80% of the meta.

We have:

UWr Control
UWr Midrange
Bant Flash
Bant Control
Bant Enchantments
Prime Speaker Bant
R/g Sligh
G/r Sligh
Mono Red
Jund aggro
Naya Blitz
Jund Midrange
Jund Smash
Gruul Midrange
Junk Rites
nB/w Tokens (I've seen some lists place, yeah)
Junk Tokens
Grixis Tempo (Fabiano)
Esper Control
Rakhammer
Dega Vampires
Dega Midrange
Aristocrats
Naya Midrange

That's off the top of my head too, I'm sure I'm missing a few.


Speaking of G/r sligh, anyone else notice that list? Its got mirrors to Red sligh, experiment one is like Stromkirk noble, Dryad militant is like Cackler except hoses UWr flash and rites off the bat.

Had 2 of Revenge of the hunted, 2 of fling, slaughterthorn and bloodrush out the ass. Also had vexing devils but hey >_>

[Sasky]

That's not right. The current metagame is:

Junk Rites
Jund Midrange
Naya Blitz
Occasionally performing tier 2 decks.

[windstrider]

Level of discourse in the last two pages has pretty much made my day.

@Alezamski: In normal social settings, I'm pretty much the perfect communicator. Talking about magic, I come off as the most egotistical prick sometimes when talking to people because as James said, I assume people aren't stupid, then they are and I tend to brutal shred there "logic".

Strider hit the nail on the head. It really is hard to simplify things. I can teach a 13 year old how congress works(happened yesterday when he wanted to understand the flavor of a filibuster counter) and I can teach grown adults how to do algebra(very hard actually when someone has gone 40 years of life with a phobia of numbers), but telling people why vexing devil is bad? Convincing my playtest
partner how everything he thinks about esper is...flawed? Dealing with my store trying to get me to play vexing devil and telling me pyreheart wolf is crap? That I struggle with.

Just remember this.
"Education is an admirable thing, but it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught."
--Oscar Wilde

I always add either "It must be learned" or "It must be experienced" to the end of that quote.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I think I'd be fine if the new Chandra had +1 shock a creature as an ability. Or even better 0, shock a creature or player, though that's probably OP.

As far as Chandra's phoenix and old RDW, that deck gave me an appreciation for agro. The games that didn't go turn 2 shrine, you had to work for your wins. But as others have said, the deck was fine and good(even if I hated stormblood berserker as a card).

It's also very true that "best decks" stifle innovation. That's why original Rav block was amazing. It was a tier 2 metagame from Kamigawa Rav->Rav-Spiral for the most part. I don't remember one truly dominant deck, so there were great rewards for innovating. Great decks from that Era:

Satanic Slight(Rakdos agro with dark
confidant)
Gruul Aggro(multiple variations and Pro Tour winning decklist)
Boros agro(I remember an 18 land version because boros Garrison was that good. Also, boros swiftblade with sunforger anyone?)
Ghazi Glare(World Champion winning selesnya deck of amazingness)
The advent of Tapout blue focused on Keiga.
Draw Go dimir.
Tron decks of all flavors.
Solar Flare(actual solar flare)
Solar Pox(had a pox engine)
Angel Fire(dega and Raka versions)
Dragonstorm(ACTUAL COMBO)

Yada yada yada, I went nostalgic, I could go on. Best period of magic ever.

During original Rav, I played Boros Deck Wins, Orzhov Deck Cheats (bw control) Ideal Form (Enduring Ideal into Form of the Dragon), and Zur's Firemane Control (UWR). Was good times.

[Sasky]

Holy shit Bob Maher is on team scg??? I haven't heard from that guy ever since oath days.

[Dodger]

The news that Chandra's Phoenix getting reprinted is good indeed. Hope I still have my playset. So Pyrewild Shaman 5 in the air that you can bring back? Yes please. Or with Gruul and GCR, 6 in the air the next turn, yes yes all over my face yes. Phoenix will be great with bloodrush.

[TubeHunter]

Chandra's Phoenix = SWAG

[Jack]

I used to have a playset of Japanese phoenixes. Got them off ebay for $1 + $1 shipping. Now I have 3, and I'm very confused as to where the fourth could have gotten to.

[TubeHunter]

That feeling when there is 29 creatures in your 45 cards left and Domri bricks 5 turns in a row....

[hamfactorial]

A wild variance appears!

[Solemn10]

I wouldn't say junk rites is uncontestedly the best deck. Here in Japan the large amounts of aggro make it hard for rites to get big. It does exist but I'd say for every junk rites player there are 4 or 5 blitz/gruul/monored players.

[Alex]

Jund is easily the best deck.

[Sasky]

I used to have a playset of Japanese phoenixes. Got them off ebay for $1 + $1 shipping. Now I have 3, and I'm very confused as to where the fourth could have gotten to.

I am facing the same problem with my promo phoenixes. I have 3 and 1 went missing.