[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[Valdarith]

-3 rancor -1 ash zealot

+4 Lightning mauler

that's where I'm at right now. Could also cut more ash zealots for +2 brimstone volley +1 reckoner.

it would have pyreheart wolves in the side to augment the weaker creature base.

I don't feel like I get green screwed more often than a 3 color deck gets it, aka pretty consistent. G/r is greedier with DOUBLE red costs in hellrider/hellkite with... 8 duals 5 mountains 13 sources?

8 duals, 1 temple garden, 1 guildgate+4 BTE= 14 green sources and I only need to see one per game.

Cutting ash zealots+rancor... it just feels so wrong.

UWr is always going to be a gross match-up, if youre running more dudes and less rancors youll just get supreme verdict for them to get 2-1s instead of maybe them having a
spear when you throw down rancor (and if youre on the play its not likely if you rancor your 1 drop.) Also zealots+rancor makes jund easymode, and it makes junk rites a HELLUVA lot easier IMO. Garruk not being able to have many targets is legitimate too.

As is making BTE's body even sexier

I see the merits of LM don't get me wrong. Goin fast is p. good, part of a nut draw. He's just insane with BTE and on t2...pretty specific. He's also just "ok" if hasting out a reckoner, because that means he's not doing anything himself T2. I just think Rancor is good with ANY creature you have (save hellrider) INSANE with Zealot, p.good on reckoner, etc.

TLDR:
Rancor is pretty bad against UWr Flash. But LM doesn't really fix that match-up either (dies to augur, verdict).
aka I think Rancor is good. But I don't see anyone playing it.

Note: I'm also ignoring that Rancor is bad G1 against mirror, because you have less bodies for them to remove/2-1 with 4 spears and shit. But if you had LM
instead and you side in elecktrickeries its the same thing, whereas you can 1-1 swap with VS and be in a much better position without diluting your threats.

If it helps, this is where I'm at:

[deck]
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firefist Striker
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Mauler
2 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager

Spells (4)
4 Rancor

Lands (19)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Temple Garden
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Volcanic Strength
2 Ground Seal
3 Domri Rade
2 Electrickery
[/deck]

Going down to only four spells (Rancor) has turned out to be a good choice. I still have a full set of GCR to act as removal AND trample damage and Rancor helps go through the fatties. I may add 1-2 Pyrewild Shaman as a mana sink in the late game.

[zemanjaski]

[deck]
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firefist Striker
4 Hellrider
2 Lightning Mauler
4 Pyreheart Wolf
2 Pyrewild Shaman
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Stonewright
4 Stromkirk Noble

2 Brimstone Volley
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

1 Hellion Crucible
21 Mountain[/deck]

Something like this maybe?

[Link]

Strikers seem really slow, especially without BTE.

T1 Dude T2 FS T3 Wolf, wait to swing? T3 Zealot?

[Link]

Going down to only four spells (Rancor) has turned out to be a good choice. I still have a full set of GCR to act as remval AND trample damage and Rancor helps go through the fatties. I may add 1-2 Pyrewild Shaman as a mana sink in the late game.

Looks pretty sexy. Think I'd rather have the chainwalkers just be Pyreheart wolves though imo.with that many dudes, getting dudes through is tech

[zemanjaski]

Strikers seem really slow, especially without BTE.

T1 Dude T2 FS T3 Wolf, wait to swing? T3 Zealot?

A lot of decks aren't going to have a blocker I mind swinging into on turn 2 or 3. Or, Ash Zealot on 3 as you mentioned; Lighning Mauler bonding with something, removal....

[Link]

I'm just thinking worst case scenario, and that you need more LM that you do strikers or a 3/3 split or something? its just the only thing that stuck out in my mind

[zemanjaski]

Standard feels kind of boring at the moment for some reason. I think winning with the same cards for so long is getting old ~ I need rotation or a M14 to get some inspiration and direction for new ideas.

[zemanjaski]

Anyone had the benefit of testing Gruul War Chant?

[Khaospawn]

The end of season 2 for GoT = holy fucking shit!

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'm hoping for a major shake up too. Tired of the same decks week in, week out.

M14 is a month before Kitakyushu, so the meta should be defined. I'm going to be grinding that month.

Anyone have any ideas on how to predict a meta.

[Christen]

Anyone had the benefit of testing Gruul War Chant?

Not yet, but I'm testing it tomorrow at my LGS with a RG list.

[deck]Creatures
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Hellrider

Spells
3 Rancor
3 Gruul War Chant

Lands
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Temple Garden
12 Mountain
[/deck]

Hopefully it's not too slow. Boros Reckoner can also be something like Firefist Striker to screw up blocks. I'm not too comfortable on going on the 20-land route though since GWC is a 4-drop and that means no Hellriders.

[TubeHunter]

So apparently Chandra's Phoenix is in m14. While that is a long way off, will that see play? Never played with the thing myself. Heard it was played last year, but that was then, and this is now.

[Alex]

So apparently Chandra's Phoenix is in m14. While that is a long way off, will that see play? Never played with the thing myself. Heard it was played last year, but that was then, and this is now.

Yes. The card is awesome for any red based aggro. It has a lot of reach and is resilient enough to demand proper answers.

[Alex]

Anyone have any ideas on how to predict a meta.

I'm going to post a (likely long-winded) post about this in the coming week. I finished up the article this morning but I don't think it should be on TCGPlayer. I'd rather it be here.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, it is really good; makes all your burn substantially better as well. Hard to predict if it will see play in the future meta, but based on previous experience, it is likely (it saw extensive play last season, and the decks there operated on a much higher power level).

[Alex]

More than that, I'm excited because I have Chandra's Phoenix's that are altered to have Squadron Hawk art on them. If they start printing good equipment I might be a happy camper.

[Khaospawn]

So apparently Chandra's Phoenix is in m14.

[photodyer]

So apparently Chandra's Phoenix is in m14. While that is a long way off, will that see play? Never played with the thing myself. Heard it was played last year, but that was then, and this is now.

HELL YES!!! I will definitely have to see about getting my playset of Argyle promos signed this weekend, yes I will! Even though RDW wasn't terribly competitive in the Delver meta, Phoenix was one of the cards that could carry the day in a burn-heavy deck. Of course, one has to hope that we're going to see some decent burn coming back with CP...and that maybe we will get a Standard-playable Chandra.

[Kazekirimaru]

So apparently Chandra's Phoenix is in m14. While that is a long way off, will that see play? Never played with the thing myself. Heard it was played last year, but that was then, and this is now.

I am SO up for that. M14 is looking pretty awesome.

[Kazekirimaru]

I'm feeling mono-red Sliver aggro or something of the sort.

[zemanjaski]

Wish list:
- lightning bolt
- arc trail
- ember hauler

That is all.

[Alex]

Even though RDW wasn't terribly competitive in the Delver meta

Totally won the AVR PTQ playing RDW. It was actually one of the few decks that could straight-up say "no" to Delver strategies because of how good Galvanic Blast was.

[zemanjaski]

Red was good; it was just that weak players insisted on using Dave Caplan's list with no innovation for 8 months while complaining the deck couldn't beat more recently developed strategies...Seriously, check out the archived Red Deck Wins subforum on MTGS; in eight months, the big developments were adding a couple of Rootbound Crags for Ancient Grudge and slightly changing the burn package. Terrible.

[Alex]

Red was good; it was just that weak players insisted on using Dave Caplan's list with no innovation for 8 months while complaining the deck couldn't beat more recently developed strategies...Seriously, check out the archived Red Deck Wins subforum on MTGS; in eight months, the big developments were adding a couple of Rootbound Crags for Ancient Grudge and slightly changing the burn package. Terrible.

But Hero of Oxid Ridge costs four mana, James! Four!

[zemanjaski]

Sorry, that was unfair of me; there was a variant built around attacking equipment to Spikeshot Elder then protecting it with Spellskite. My bad.

[Kazekirimaru]

Wish list:
- lightning bolt
- arc trail
- ember hauler

That is all.

Forked Bolt?

[zemanjaski]

Would play, sure. There is a difference between 'playable' and 'wish list' though.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Anyone have any ideas on how to predict a meta.

I'm going to post a (likely long-winded) post about this in the coming week. I finished up the article this morning but I don't think it should be on TCGPlayer. I'd rather it be here.

Thanks Alex. I underperformed at GP: Nagoya in December because I didn't meta well enough. I played my worst m/u like 4/9 rounds without MD hate cards. My devk + the relevant MD hate cards made top 8.

I'm paying to fly down to Kitakyushu, I don't want to repeat that mistake. Going to be smarter with my prep this time too.
My goal
is to make Day 2. You need x-2-0 for day two right?

I also have a PTQ on June 1st. Expecting 200+ players. Will likely be playing aristocrats for that one.

[photodyer]

Even though RDW wasn't terribly competitive in the Delver meta

Totally won the AVR PTQ playing RDW. It was actually one of the few decks that could straight-up say "no" to Delver strategies because of how good Galvanic Blast was.

Alex, you are at times a very contentious individual. Aggro in general was not having a whole lot of fun in Delver Standard; RDW was one of the more capable decks in the hands of a competent pilot (as evinced by your and James's successes), but it was not a dominant deck in the meta compared to the role of Rx in the current meta. I didn't say
the deck sucked wind--I stated the facts relative to how the statistics show the meta stacked up. My son played the deck all through SOM/ISD Standard and it could carry through against any deck on a given day, but it's telling that he was the only person at 50-70 player events that was on mono red.

EDIT: James just stated much more succinctly what I was trying to communicate. I wasn't trying to say red was bad, but rather that it was not successful. That it was not a center of innovative building efforts may indeed have been the difference there. My son played around with his list quite a bit and at times had pretty good winning streaks given it was his first year in the game.

[Alex]

Even though RDW wasn't terribly competitive in the Delver meta

Totally won the AVR PTQ playing RDW. It was actually one of the few decks that could straight-up say "no" to Delver strategies because of how good Galvanic Blast was.

Alex, you are at times a very contentious individual. Aggro in general was not having a whole lot of fun in Delver Standard; RDW was one of the more capable decks in the hands of a
competent pilot (as evinced by your and James's successes), but it was not a dominant deck in the meta compared to the role of Rx in the current meta. I didn't say the deck sucked wind--I stated the facts relative to how the statistics show the meta stacked up. My son played the deck all through SOM/ISD Standard and it could carry through against any deck on a given day, but it's telling that he was the only person at 50-70 player events that was on mono red.

EDIT: James just stated much more succinctly what I was trying to communicate. I wasn't trying to say red was bad, but rather that it was not successful. That it was not a center of innovative building efforts may indeed have been the difference there. My son played around with his list quite a bit and at times had pretty good winning streaks given it was his first year in the game.

It wasn't a dominant deck because it was under-represented, not because the cards or the archetype weren't strong enough. This happens
every time a public enemy #1 deck arises.

Delver, like Cawblade, ended up being the "go to" deck for any grinder who wasn't willing to lean into the wind. Having one "best deck" takes a lot of the otherwise inquiring minds away from other archetypes and sets them firmly in bettering the play of the deck they already have. Brews stop. You don't need to theorycraft when you can instead simply finetune.

Like James said, innovation came to a screeching halt, and it had a lot to do with Delver being around than anything else. People were fascinated with the card. This is something that has happened plenty of times throughout the history of competitive Magic, and it will happen again in the future when a new "it" deck pops up.

[Alex]

PS: The nice thing about the mentality above is that sheep are very easy animals to kill.

[zemanjaski]

^ Definitely. Most Delver and CawBlade players were awful.

[photodyer]

Very well stated, Alex...you do have a gift for analysis. I remember how tiresome it was playing from about AVR through rotation, simply because it got old having to play against Delver so many times at a given event. That's what attracted me to MBI in the later part of that season--doing something that wasn't Delver and that didn't care about lifegain and the like. People groaned and complained about how "unfair" Infect was, but at least it was something different.

[zemanjaski]

If people didn't like Delver, I cannot even imagine what they thought about CawBlade hahaha. People are the worst.

[Alex]

Very well stated, Alex...you do have a gift for analysis. I remember how tiresome it was playing from about AVR through rotation, simply because it got old having to play against Delver so many times at a given event. That's what attracted me to MBI in the later part of that season--doing something that wasn't Delver and that didn't care about lifegain and the like. People groaned and complained about how "unfair" Infect was, but at least it was something different.

Swamps are still my favorite basic land. Partly due to MBI, partly due to Drana in EDH.

Also I get the "you're kind of a contentious prick" thing a lot. It isn't like that. I just try and see things as broadly as possible, and at times I don't convey that
very well. I'm a very "understand both sides of the coin" kind of guy, so I'll often instigate debate as a means to try and understand the other side of an argument better.

[zemanjaski]

I think one of my many problems is that I get exhausted explaining things that I feel are self-evident; even when if I would just take a simple half-step back, I would appreciate that they are not.

[Link]

Anyone had the benefit of testing Gruul War Chant?

Not yet, but I'm testing it tomorrow at my LGS with a RG list.

[deck]Creatures
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Hellrider

Spells
3 Rancor
3 Gruul War Chant

Lands
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Temple Garden
12 Mountain
[/deck]

Hopefully it's not too slow. Boros Reckoner can also be something like Firefist Striker to screw up blocks. I'm not too comfortable on going on the 20-land route
though since GWC is a 4-drop and that means no Hellriders.

that list looks fun as hell. Been meaning to try out GWC as well since I got two at pre-release, but been in 20-land route lately. Pyrewild shaman somewhere to deal with floods that come with 22 lands? Also I would keep Reckoner because 4/3 reckoners are sweet.

Looking forward for a report.

[Alex]

I think one of my many problems is that I get exhausted explaining things that I feel are self-evident; even when if I would just take a simple half-step back, I would appreciate that they are not.

I'm pretty sure there's a word for that.

That word is "cocky." I've been called that a few times myself, likely for the same reasons.

[Christen]

I'm thinking of cutting on the Hellriders altogether to keep the curve low, though thats what the testing will be for.

[zemanjaski]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=62647#p62647:1e5juao6]Alex » Tue May 14, 2013 3:44 pm[/url:1e5juao6]":1e5juao6][quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=62645#p62645:1e5juao6]zemanjaski » Tue May 14, 2013 12:38 am[/url:1e5juao6]":1e5juao6]I think one of my many problems is that I get exhausted explaining things that I feel are self-evident; even when if I would just take a simple half-step back, I would appreciate that they are not.[/quote:1e5juao6]
I'm pretty sure there's a word for that.

That word is "cocky." I've been called that a few times myself, likely for the same reasons. [/quote:1e5juao6]

I prefer 'frustrated'. I am afterall, trying to raise the level of discourse.