[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[zemanjaski]

People are often much more comfortable sharing with strangers than they are sharing with family. Not everyone of course, as every relationship has to be addressed on its own merits; but look at the honesty of discussion within this clan.

[Christen]

oh and a shuffle effect at the cost of 1 life.

This is the biggest reason, especially in any list that runs any number of cantrips.

In lists that don't cantrip? They set up shocks, feed Deathrite Shaman, Grim Lavamancer and Tarmogoyf, and and help you just generally not draw "more" lands when you don't want to. (Less lands in
your deck = more business when it's business time.)

Deck thinning is a minimal effect (under 10% if I recall) but it's still an edge over somebody without fetches.

This has been covered ad naseum. Deck thinning is a myth. You need to crack like, 10 to improve a single draw. No good player would pay 10 life for one card.

If deck thinning is a myth, then wouldn't that make 61-card decks a myth as well?

[Lightning_Dolt]

oh and a shuffle effect at the cost of 1 life.

This is the biggest reason, especially in any list that runs any number of cantrips.

In lists that don't cantrip? They set up shocks, feed Deathrite Shaman, [card]Grim
Lavamancer[/card] and Tarmogoyf, and and help you just generally not draw "more" lands when you don't want to. (Less lands in your deck = more business when it's business time.)

Deck thinning is a minimal effect (under 10% if I recall) but it's still an edge over somebody without fetches.

This has been covered ad naseum. Deck thinning is a myth. You need to crack like, 10 to improve a single draw. No good player would pay 10 life for one card.

If deck thinning is a myth, then wouldn't that make 61-card decks a myth as well?

Not sure what you are getting at...

[Helios]

@Cristen: I think that they essentially are a myth, for any deck that doesn't play bad cards. Because of the 60 card deck size, you'll find that most decks have "bad" cards, so it is rare that you actually want 61.

People are often much more comfortable sharing with strangers than they are sharing with family. Not everyone of course, as every relationship has to be addressed on its own merits; but look at the honesty of discussion within this clan.

To be fair, I'm not sure that anyone has shared anything

1) illegal (outside of speeding/underage drinking, etc., but nothing legitimately incriminating)
2) legitimately embarrassing
3) that would cause undue social pressure in other circumstances.

Though I do agree that the
observation is generally true.

[Christen]

Not sure what you are getting at...

It's because of the argument that 60-card decks will always be more optimal than 61-card decks. Fetchlands guarantee that you'll not draw that land you fetch in the remainder of your game.

[zemanjaski]

@Cristen: I think that they essentially are a myth, for any deck that doesn't play bad cards. Because of the 60 card deck size, you'll find that most decks have "bad" cards, so it is rare that you actually want 61.

People are often much more comfortable sharing with strangers than they are sharing with family. Not everyone of course, as every relationship has to be addressed on its own merits; but look at the honesty of discussion within this clan.

To be fair, I'm not sure that anyone has shared anything

1) illegal (outside of speeding/underage drinking, etc., but
nothing legitimately incriminating)
2) legitimately embarrassing
3) that would cause undue social pressure in other circumstances.

Though I do agree that the observation is generally true.

I guess, though a lot of us have been pretty open about drug use, personal problems, relationship problems, legal problems etc; stuff you wouldn't normally be open about with people you don't actually know.

As for embarrassing stuff; I submit as evidence the puncture of me with the wolf hat

[Lightning_Dolt]

Not sure what you are getting at...

It's because of the argument that 60-card decks will always be more optimal than 61-card decks. Fetchlands guarantee that you'll not draw that land you fetch in the remainder of your game.

60 cards are always more optimal. That's clear cut.

Fetch lands have been proven mathematically to be of next to no benefit unless you want them for one of the reasons I listed.

Here, maths:

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096

[zemanjaski]

I know you guys are cool, but are you 8pm bed time cool?

Yeah, totally wiped.

[zemanjaski]

Junk Midrange built around tokens and Planeswalkers seems really good, if you can stomach a sub-optimal reanimator matchup.

[hamfactorial]

[bragtag]
Another new and very satisfied lady just left chez ham on day 88.
[/bragtag]

[zemanjaski]

4 Farseek
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Lingering Souls
1 Midnight Haunting
2 Petrify
4 Selensya Charm
1 Sever the Bloodline

2 Geist-Honored Monk
4 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk

1 Garruk Primal Hunter
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

2 Gavony Township
2 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
4 Woodland Cemetry
1 Vault of the Archangel[/deck]

Something like that as a starting point. Intangible Virtue turns your PWs into pretty terrifying engines; lots of lifegain and decent removal.

[redthirst]

I don't think deck thinning is a literal myth so much as it's so innefficient that it doesn't make sense to do it.

You're paying 1/20th of your life for a much much less than 1/20th chance to draw a relevant spell over another land. The only way that's a good trade is if you don't care about your life total at all or you can abuse the ability enough in a long enough game to make the thinning significant.

I played them for both those reasons before - if you honestly think there's not another deck that can race you, then who cares if you trade a life for a 1% chance at a better top deck? 1% is still better than 0%. If you play an extremely defensive deck that usually doesn't win until turn 20 and have a way to abuse the fetchlands then making all your late game topdecks relevant is also pretty good.

Those are two pretty extreme corner-cases though. In any practical sense, unless you need fetches for mana fixing
or to put cards in your yard, all you're doing by playing fetches is spending $200+ to make it easier for your opponent to kill you.

[photodyer]

@Cristen: I think that they essentially are a myth, for any deck that doesn't play bad cards. Because of the 60 card deck size, you'll find that most decks have "bad" cards, so it is rare that you actually want 61.

People are often much more comfortable sharing with strangers than they are sharing with family. Not everyone of course, as every relationship has to be addressed on its own merits; but look at the honesty of discussion within this clan.

To be fair, I'm not sure that anyone has shared anything

1) illegal (outside of speeding/underage drinking, etc., but nothing
legitimately incriminating)
2) legitimately embarrassing
3) that would cause undue social pressure in other circumstances.

Though I do agree that the observation is generally true.

This perception is partially based on the nature of the relationships in this clan--as well as the individuals that make up the whole. We as a group are not critical of the choices individual brothers make in terms of "indulgences" beyond thoughts of personal and public safety, and there are certain themes of shared life experiences that reinforce our general attitudes of acceptance. Some of us have aired "stuff" that would raise eyebrows and elicit whispers in genteel society, though mostly from the perspective of living through egregious circumstances rather than promulgating them (with the possible exception my and windstrider's musings on the relative merits and pitfalls of our exes "disappearing" ). We are, as a rule, open to saying pretty much anything around here.

@windstrider - My friend, your attitude and observations highlight the reality of education in our society. People like you--who do it for the intangible rewards of improving upon the human condition despite lack of commensurate compensation--are the only reason the system works at all. I raise my glass to you ( sorry that it's just coffee, but the sentiment is no less sincere ).

[photodyer]

Has anyone else noticed issues over on MTGTop8? They evidently haven't updated their database for DGM, as all of the decks that include new cards have either omissions or mismaps (e.g., Strangleroot Geist being listed in Jund decks in place of Sire). Just FYI...don't take anything from the site at face value for now.

[Valdarith]

Any opinions on these three Modern decks? My FNM is Modern next week and I hope to participate, but I can't decide what to run. I'm leaning towards the Gruul Zoo deck. I don't know the current local metagame, but I expect tier 1 decks at the top.

Modern Burn

---

[deck]Land (20)
2 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
6 Mountain

Creatures &#
40;14)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Hellspark Elemental

Spells (26)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Shard Volley
4 Rift Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Searing Blaze

Sideboard
3 Torpor Orb
4 Smash to Smitereens
4 Rakdos Charm
1 Volcanic Fallout
3 Back to Nature
[/deck]

Modern Gruul Zoo

---

[deck]Lands (19)
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Stomping Ground
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
2 Forest
3 Mountain

Creatures (28)
4 Kird Ape
4 Experiment One
4 Goblin Guide
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Stormblood Berserker
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager

Spells (13)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rancor
2 Dismember
3 Searing Blaze

Sideboard
4 Volcanic Fallout
1 Dismember
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Back to Nature
4 Vines of Vastwood
[/deck]

Modern Goblin

---

[deck]Lands (20)
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Stomping Ground
12
Mountain

Creatures (28)
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Goblin Guide
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Wardriver

Spells (12)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Shared Animosity
2 Dismember
4 Lead the Stampede

Sideboard
4 Volcanic Fallout
1 Dismember
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Back to Nature
4 Vines of Vastwood
[/deck]

I'm limited to these colors due to available shocks/fetches. Would love to include white in the Burn and the Zoo decks, but it isn't possible atm. The Goblin deck is very much an untested homebrew so I don't know what that's capable of. But it probably isn't expected, so it has a surprise bonus.

I like the Gruul Zoo list the most.

Do you have the mana base for this list I brewed up last night? I have a deck brewing problem, and am now brewing decks in formats I don't even play. Someone halp!

[deck]Creatures (31)
4 Experiment One
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Rakdos Cackler
4
Spike Jester
4 Jund Hackblade
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar

Spells (12)
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike

Lands (17)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Stomping Ground

Sideboard (15)
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
7 Flex slots[/deck]

I really want to make room for Deathrite Shaman to turn on Jund Hackblade more reliably and provide another green one drop to cast BTE off of. Could also provide some good turn two ramp. Maybe cut one Flinthoof Boar and a Mutagenic Growth for two?

I have the mana base, except for only 6 relevant fetchlands, but I could put in some Copperline Gorges and Blackcleave Cliffs instead. I've been thinking about a similar build myself, mostly because of Spike Jester. Inquisition of Kozilek would be nice as well. Some thoughts:

- 17 lands feels like too few. I'd go with 18-19.
- Lava Spikes feels wrong here. Put in 2-3 Dismember instead.
- Rancor instead of Mutagenic
Growth?
- Deathrite Shaman instead of Rakdos Cackler?

1) Probably right on the land count. 18 feels better.
2) Lava Spike is there to increase the number of possible pathways for a turn 3 kill. I do like the idea of Dismember though and I'd probably remove Mutagenic Growth for 2-3 of them.
3) The problem I have with Rancor is that it opens you up to 2-for-1s and we often won't have time to cast it. We want to kill as quickly as possible and Rancor only slows down the tempo since we're not playing a dude instead. At least with Mutagenic Growth we can cast it at the cost of life and not mana.
4) Again, Cackler to increase the number of possibilities for a turn 3 kill.

I definitely want Deathrite Shaman and Dismember in the deck, but removing Mutagenic Growth makes a turn three kill much less likely. That said, it would also increase the deck's consistency in the mid to late game, so how about:

[deck]Creatures (32)
4 Experiment One
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Rakdos
Cackler
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Spike Jester
4 Jund Hackblade
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Flinthoof Boar

Spells (10)
3 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lava Spike

Lands (18)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Stomping Ground

Sideboard (15)
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
7 Flex slots[/deck]

Some examples of strong starts:
1) T1: play or fetch Stomping Ground, cast Experiment One. T2: play or fetch Blood Crypt, cast Goblin Guide, cast Kird Ape, swing 5, T3: play or fetch any land, cast BTE, cast Jund Hackblade, Bolt or Spike for 3, swing 10, opponent at two before turn four (and quite possibly dead if playing fetches and shocks).

You can see why I had Mutagenic Growth in the deck now.

2) T1: play or fetch Stomping Ground, cast Rakdos Cackler or Kird Ape. T2: play or fetch Blood Crypt, cast BTE, cast Jund Hackblade, swing 5. T3: play or fetch any land, cast
Spike Jester, Bolt or Spike for 3, swing 10, opponent at two before turn four.

There's so many different combinations for explosive starts in this deck. The more I think about it, the more we really want three land on turn three, so 19 might be a better number for land. I'd remove one Flinthoof Boar for a land in that case since he's the least valuable creature in the deck.

EDIT: maybe Lava Spike should be Searing Blaze instead...

[Link]

I don't know anything about modern still so speaking from a position of complete ignorance (and also unbiasedness?), if you're aiming for T3 T4 kills, I like the idea of mutagenic growth better.

What are you removing with dismember?

Also if you up the number of red 1 drops and green 1 drops, you can probably remove flinthoof altogether? (i.e. 1 more cackler, 1 more DRS/burn spellthing, 1 more land to 19?) Playing two spells off BTE is almost always going to be better than Flinthoof I think. I guess him evolving Experiment 1 to 3/3 is important though

Also Searing blaze is 2 mana, for understandbly more value. But when you're trying to use your mana as efficiently as possible to kill them as fast as possible, I can see why you have Spike?


like I said Idk much about modern. What early defenders/walls go down that deserve removal? and if those are your only weakness, you got 7 flex slots in the SB for dismember/w/
e.

This is definitely the kind of build I'd like to play (is there any glaring reason to play straight Gruul Zoo over this? Hackblade looks tech as hell) if I got into it though, $45 fetches are a still being a pretty good deterrent >.>

[Link]

Back to standard though:

So the newest vesrion of Junk Rites was running Fiend hunters for anti-aggro. T2 Fiend is actually scarier than a T2 Smiter imo. Especially with resto angel and unburial rite crap

and they got Sin collector... which is actually the freakin nuts against control. A threat+hand destruction.

Someone please convince my Pyrewild shaman/ZTD is equally the nuts so I don't feel like we got completely shafted this set

[LP, of the Fires]

Back to standard though:

So the newest vesrion of Junk Rites was running Fiend hunters for anti-aggro.

and they got Sin collector... which is actually the freakin nuts against control. A threat+hand destruction.

Someone please convince my Pyrewild shaman/ZTD is equally the nuts so I don't feel like we got completely shafted this set

No...we got shafted. Goblin spike jester is likely the best card for immidieate play in red decks.

[redthirst]

It is reeeeeeeeeeeally good, though.

[Link]

It is

if you're in R/b aggro. T_T

I have everything but aristocrats/hellkites to make the switch for awhile, and I'm pretty sure those flyers are core to the build.

[redthirst]

Oh yeah - that top-end is what gets us there.

[redthirst]

If it makes you feel better, I'm positive the Hammer of BoGoblin is a legitimate substitution for Stonewright if you're running 23+ lands, though.

[Kazekirimaru]

like I said Idk much about modern. What early defenders/walls go down that deserve removal? and if those are your only weakness, you got 7 flex slots in the SB for dismember/w/e.

Spellskite. And that's reason enough to warrant removal in most cases.

[Kazekirimaru]

Good morning, all. Though I hope your mornings are better than mine. I am avoiding the sun, food, and human contact today. Drinking is bad. Except not really.

[redthirst]

You know what'll fix that hangover?

A drink.

[Dodger]

Back to standard though:

So the newest vesrion of Junk Rites was running Fiend hunters for anti-aggro. T2 Fiend is actually scarier than a T2 Smiter imo. Especially with resto angel and unburial rite crap

and they got Sin collector... which is actually the freakin nuts against control. A threat+hand destruction.

Someone please convince my Pyrewild shaman/ZTD is equally the nuts so I don't feel like we got completely shafted this set

Do you have a list? I gotta say playing Prime Speaker Bant last night really made me want to use and abuse Restoration Angel for as long as she remains in standard.

[Kazekirimaru]

To be fair, I'm not sure that anyone has shared anything

1) illegal (outside of speeding/underage drinking, etc., but nothing legitimately incriminating)

Is that directed at me? I kinda feel like it is. I'm legal, technically. If I can drink myself stupid legally in my home country(Canada) I should be able to do it elsewhere. At least, that's how I justify it.

[Kazekirimaru]

You know what'll fix that hangover?

A drink.

Capital idea, rogue captain.

I gotta drive places today, though.

[windstrider]

How are you feeling about your impending nuptials, kaze?

[redthirst]

One drink:

1 raw egg
1 shot bourbon
black pepper

Kills a hangover and makes a man of ya.

[windstrider]

^ guaranteed to purge your stomach as well?

[Kazekirimaru]

How are you feeling about your impending nuptials, kaze?

Better, actually. Maybe. Well, I'm not really that nervous anymore. I'm more worried about the ceremony going wrong somehow than the actual marriage, which I guess is a step in the right direction.

One drink:

1 raw egg
1 shot bourbon
black pepper

Kills a hangover and makes a man of ya.

Is that legitimate? I've got the components.

[Valdarith]

Back to standard though:

So the newest vesrion of Junk Rites was running Fiend hunters for anti-aggro. T2 Fiend is actually scarier than a T2 Smiter imo. Especially with resto angel and unburial rite crap

and they got Sin collector... which is actually the freakin nuts against control. A threat+hand destruction.

Someone please convince my Pyrewild shaman/ZTD is equally the nuts so I don't feel like we got completely shafted this set

I've been playing a lot of Gruul Sligh on MODO but the meta is evolving there such that it is not the best deck to be playing right now. With Rites running Smiters and Fiends maindeck and that stupid UG deck with Young Wolf, Augur of Bolas, Rapid Hybridization, et al being flavor of the week, it's just a
poor choice right now.

Really, Dega Burn and Rakdos sligh seems INCREDIBLY well positioned right now in both paper and MODO. I've posted both lists in the Burn thread if you're interested.

[redthirst]

^ guaranteed to purge your stomach as well?

If you can stomach it, it'll make you feel better - if you can't, you'll throw up and feel better anyway.

Of course, 2 Aspirin, a Gatorade, and a meal will make you feel better too, but that's way more work and way less epic.

[rcwraspy]

Kaze, congratulations! Looking forward to the next couple days?

I really like what someone else said- plan things out beforehand, then simply don't make stupid mistakes on the day of. They really will be paying most of their attention to her, not you. AND EAT YOUR FOOD! You'll feel pressured to get up all the time and thank people but be up, then sit down when a course comes, eat it, then get up again until the next course comes.

I'm pretty excited to get into Modern. Definitely red-based something. I have no Modern experience, but there are 3 or 4 builds I like. One is the Gruul build, but I lack 'goyfs. Another is the RDW build that is very similar to the old Scars/Inn standard RDW I had. A few key changes, especially Gobiln Guide in the one spot. He's in the mail . Then I like R/x burn a lot.
Either mono-R or Z's R/w burn list posted earlier in this thread. That looks really fun and I'm only missing a few cards from it.

I don't have all the fetches, but am just missing the greens - Verdant Catacombs and Misty Rainforest. That doesn't get in the way of a red build whatsoever. I just can't play Jund. I'm ok with that.

I didn't think I'd get excited for Modern Masters, but I'm starting to.

[Link]

Back to standard though:

So the newest vesrion of Junk Rites was running Fiend hunters for anti-aggro. T2 Fiend is actually scarier than a T2 Smiter imo. Especially with resto angel and unburial rite crap

and they got Sin collector... which is actually the freakin nuts against control. A threat+hand destruction.

Someone please convince my Pyrewild shaman/ZTD is equally the nuts so I don't feel like we got completely shafted this set

Do you have a list? I gotta say playing Prime Speaker Bant last night really made me want to use and abuse Restoration Angel for as long as she
remains in standard.

it was sent to me in an e-mail by Ced Phillips... don't have the list.

Was pretty standard lookin junk rites with sin collectors in the SB, fiend hunters in the MB over loxodon smiters. Plenty acidic slimes cause resto angel lol

Oh

also

2 voice of resurgences in the SB because LOLJUNK CAN PLAY THAT CARD TOOO

[Alex]

Back to standard though:

So the newest vesrion of Junk Rites was running Fiend hunters for anti-aggro. T2 Fiend is actually scarier than a T2 Smiter imo. Especially with resto angel and unburial rite crap

and they got Sin collector... which is actually the freakin nuts against control. A threat+hand destruction.

Someone please convince my Pyrewild shaman/ZTD is equally the nuts so I don't feel like we got completely shafted this set

n

Do you have a list? I gotta say playing Prime Speaker Bant last night really made me want to use and abuse Restoration Angel for as long as she remains in standard.

it was sent to me in an e-mail by Ced Phillips... don't have the list.

Was pretty standard lookin junk rites with sin collectors in the SB, fiend hunters in the MB over loxodon smiters.

Oh

also

2 voice of resurgences in the SB because LOLJUNK CAN PLAY THAT CARD TOOO

And you bothered to read it?



...sorry, just another SCG employee I dislike. Anybody notice a trend?

[Valdarith]

Back to standard though:

So the newest vesrion of Junk Rites was running Fiend hunters for anti-aggro. T2 Fiend is actually scarier than a T2 Smiter imo. Especially with resto angel and unburial rite crap

and they got Sin collector... which is actually the freakin nuts against control. A
threat+hand destruction.

Someone please convince my Pyrewild shaman/ZTD is equally the nuts so I don't feel like we got completely shafted this set

Do you have a list? I gotta say playing Prime Speaker Bant last night really made me want to use and abuse Restoration Angel for as long as she remains in standard.

it was sent to me in an e-mail by Ced Phillips... don't have the list.

Was pretty standard lookin junk rites with sin collectors in the SB, fiend hunters in the MB over loxodon smiters.

Oh

also

2 voice of resurgences in the SB because LOLJUNK CAN PLAY THAT CARD TOOO

And you bothered to read it?



...sorry, just another SCG employee I dislike. Anybody notice a trend?

Why? Need more info. Not that I agree or disagree with your sentiment. I don't have a general opinion on Cedric beyond what little I've gleaned from his stream (his streams are a lot better than most I've
viewed).

[Kazekirimaru]

^ guaranteed to purge your stomach as well?

If you can stomach it, it'll make you feel better - if you can't, you'll throw up and feel better anyway.

Of course, 2 Aspirin, a Gatorade, and a meal will make you feel better too, but that's way more work and way less epic.

That was...not as bad as I thought. Reminds me of Texas Thunder. I think I can feel my Y chromosomes flexing.

Kaze,
congratulations! Looking forward to the next couple days?

I really like what someone else said- plan things out beforehand, then simply don't make stupid mistakes on the day of. They really will be paying most of their attention to her, not you. AND EAT YOUR FOOD! You'll feel pressured to get up all the time and thank people but be up, then sit down when a course comes, eat it, then get up again until the next course comes.

Aye, I hear you. I just realized I need paper plates. That would have been a disaster. I'll try to keep the stupid mistakes to a minimum.

And as far as meals go, the wedding is outdoors and so is the reception. I couldn't really afford a snazzy reception, so it's more of a potluck cookout. I hear there's going to be bacon corn.

[TubeHunter]

Is there any one at SCG that you actually like Alex?