[Primer] Dos Rakis

[RDW]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=59391#p59391:34lmevg9]windstrider » Sat May 04, 2013 10:54 am[/url:34lmevg9]":34lmevg9][quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=59387#p59387:34lmevg9]RDW » Sat May 04, 2013 10:33 am[/url:34lmevg9]":34lmevg9]I'll be piloting your deck next week, Redthirst; it's beautiful, haha. Has anyone tried Dega?[/quote:34lmevg9]

Photodyer experimented with a Dega splash for a while. It plays out a little differently from Dos Rakis.[/quote:34lmevg9]

What cards did he consider? I think the Dos Rakis core (as provided by Redthirst) is perfect, but the white splash is "free" (especially with four Godless Shrine for Boros Reckoner already), so I was thinking 2 Boros Charm and 2 Assemble the Legion out of the board against control... What're everyone's thoughts on this?

[windstrider]

I'll be piloting your deck next week, Redthirst; it's beautiful, haha. Has anyone tried Dega?

Photodyer experimented with a Dega splash for a while. It plays out a little differently from Dos Rakis.

What cards did he consider? I think the Dos Rakis core (as provided by Redthirst) is perfect, but the white splash is "free" (especially with four Godless Shrine for Boros Reckoner already), so I was thinking 2
Boros Charm and 2 Assemble the Legion out of the board against control... What're everyone's thoughts on this?

Four Shrines are too few white sources to run those with any consistency. I like the idea of Boros Charm, but Assemble the Legion would be too slow.

[RDW]

I'll be piloting your deck next week, Redthirst; it's beautiful, haha. Has anyone tried Dega?

Photodyer experimented with a Dega splash for a while. It plays out a little differently from Dos Rakis.

What cards did he consider? I think the Dos Rakis core (as
provided by Redthirst) is perfect, but the white splash is "free" (especially with four Godless Shrine for Boros Reckoner already), so I was thinking 2 Boros Charm and 2 Assemble the Legion out of the board against control... What're everyone's thoughts on this?

Four Shrines are too few white sources to run those with any consistency. I like the idea of Boros Charm, but Assemble the Legion would be too slow.

Oh, I'm well aware of that haha! Of course we'd bring in 4 Sacred Foundry and 4 Clifftop Retreat instead of Mountains, but the Godless Shrines are already there, putting us at 12 black, 12 white, 20 red, and all (R/W). Seems pretty smooth, although we'd be adding 4 shocks which would make our hyper-aggressive match-up even worse only for a marginal improvement in the control match-up. From my experience, Assemble the Legions ends a game against control.

[redthirst]

The deck is already strong against Control, so I don't think splashing another color will gain any benefits worth what messing with the mana base will take away from the deck.

[RDW]

The deck is already strong against Control, so I don't think splashing another color will gain any benefits worth what messing with the mana base will take away from the deck.

Good to know; then there's no reason to go into white (because I don't think white adds anything against other archetypes).

[hamfactorial]

I played with Dega for a few weeks and liked it, but I didn't feel like the deck was more powerful than straight Rb. I also disliked the mulligans from the check lands and extra shock damage.

[zemanjaski]

[deck]
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Spike Jester
2 Stonewright
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble

2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

3 Brimstone Volley
2 Dreadbore
4 Searing Spear

11 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Godless Shrine[/deck]

Comments?

I guess if you switch Spike Jester for Knight of Infamy or Lightning Mauler (any human) you can start to include some number of Cavern of Souls. Whether or not that is good I don't know. Exava seems very good as fantastic 4-drop 5-6.

[redthirst]

I tested Exava and I liked it, but I kept thinking "Man, I wish these were Hellkites" almost every time I played it.

[fireiced]

I played the exact same list as zemanjaski just that I used Thundermaws instead of Exava, KoI instead of Spike Jester and 2 Ultimate Prices instead of Brimstone Volley

Got land flooded like crap in top 4 and proceeded to lose (again!)

That aside, are Exavas good? As in good enough to include in this meta where Falkenrath is still legal? Sometimes I have my Thundermaw in hand and unable to draw the 5th land to close out the game (drawing 1 drops like bause turns 7-9) =/

[redthirst]

Exava is definitely good from what I could tell. I'd run it over Hellrider in the deck if you were looking for another 4-drop to play along FA.

[windstrider]

I completely redesigned the Primer, breaking the sections down into Main stage players and understudy cards. I included Brother redthirst's sideboard plans for the most current version of the deck.

If you want, z, I can add your version to the primer as well.

[Khaospawn]

I completely redesigned the Primer, breaking the sections down into Main stage players and understudy cards. I included Brother redthirst's sideboard plans for the most current version of the deck.

If you want, z, I can add your version to the primer as well.

Looks good, bud.

[redthirst]

Yup. Real solid Primer.

[windstrider]

Thank you, gents. I felt like simplifying it down. Any additions I need to make?

[Kazekirimaru]

Looking good!

[zemanjaski]

I played the exact same list as zemanjaski just that I used Thundermaws instead of Exava, KoI instead of Spike Jester and 2 Ultimate Prices instead of Brimstone Volley

Got land flooded like crap in top 4 and proceeded to lose (again!)

That aside, are Exavas good? As in good enough to include in this meta where Falkenrath is still legal? Sometimes I have my Thundermaw in hand and unable to draw the 5th land to close out the game (drawing 1 drops like bause turns 7-9) =/

So you didn't play the same deck at all, got it

[zemanjaski]

Might be able to go to 22 land if I'm not running any 5s.

[RDW]

7 3s and 6 4s are in there, so might want to stay at 23, but I've seen crazier things done than shaving to 22... Remember those retarded 19-land Hellrider lists? Lolz.

[fireiced]

I played the exact same list as zemanjaski just that I used Thundermaws instead of Exava, KoI instead of Spike Jester and 2 Ultimate Prices instead of Brimstone Volley

Got land flooded like crap in top 4 and proceeded to lose (again!)

That aside, are Exavas good? As in good enough to include in this meta where Falkenrath is still legal? Sometimes I have my Thundermaw in hand and unable to draw the 5th land to close out the game (drawing 1 drops like bause turns 7-9) =/

So you didn't play the same deck at all, got it

Pardon for my English bro, was too exhausted yesterday, besides how good are spike jesters compared to KoI?

Exava is definitely good from what I could tell. I'd run it over Hellrider in the deck if you were looking for another 4-drop to play along FA.

Tried darling Exava and loving her so much (:, really loving the speed I kill my friends without waiting for Thundermaw mana

[windstrider]

Pardon for my English bro, was too exhausted yesterday, besides how good are spike jesters compared to KoI?

Sadly, the Knight's value has dropped off recently.

Spike Jester is the best new toy we got from the Maze. Compare Cackler into Jester for 5 damage on turn two vs. Cackler into Knight for 3 damage. Jester is the better topdeck later in the game when we want to be swinging with multiple creatures since it trades with more. Sure, Jester dies a lot, but most of the early creatures are expendable anyway.

Try it out.

[windstrider]

Updates: Added Pyrewild Shaman and Rakdos Keyrune to the Understudy section. Moved Ultimate Price to the Sideboard area of the Show Time section. Fixed the Sideboard of the Matinee deck to add back the missing Reckoner.

[Self Medicated]

I don't know why I ever moved away from this deck. I played at my LGS this past weekend and my deck wrecked shop. I can't deny it's raw power. Big thanks to Windstrider for revising the primer.

[deschain]

Yeah I've been rocking the deck post RTR for a long while. Then GTC came along and the aggro freak in me just gravitated towards R/G BTE.dec. As I was playing more and more of that deck, I realized I missed Rakdos' SB flexibility I gave up for Gruul's G-1 explosiveness. Now Spike Jester comes along and I get to have my cake and eat it too. It's not as explosive as Gruul, but it's way more consistent across all MU's.

[windstrider]

@SM — Thanks! Dos Rakis got hated on pretty badly around here. Everything else went either Midrange or Lifegain Control. It wasn't stopping me from playing it, but those were some frustrating matches.

Yeah I've been rocking the deck post RTR for a long while. Then GTC came along and the aggro freak in me just gravitated towards R/G BTE.dec. As I was playing more and more of that deck, I realized I missed Rakdos' SB flexibility I gave up for Gruul's G-1 explosiveness. Now Spike Jester comes along and I get to have my cake and eat it too. It's not as explosive as Gruul, but it's way more consistent across all MU's.

(Emphasis mine)

And that, right there, is what makes this deck
successful. In my thinking, I tried to get too "cute" with sideboard options that ultimately only weakened the deck. A lot of credit goes to redthirst for the new sideboard. Right now we don't have to worry overly much about what the opponent plays: we can smash face no matter what.

The Jester adds a lot of value. I like everything about him except that artwork.

[deschain]

Oh man, I hear that. I used to jam a bunch of suboptimals in my SB, duress, appetite for brains, VNH, etc. and end up wishing for threat removals and big stomping flyers in my hand instead. Major thanks to you and redthirst for the awesome work on the primer / deck design!

Also, eff Lavinia. If that card had a face, I would punch it. So hard.

[dpaine88]

Holy shit this new list is terrific! Going back to my roots Been testing a whole slew of decks after getting a little bored of Dos Rakis lately , but after playing just a few playtesting sessions I remember why I love this deck so much.

Thanks to those more loyal than me for keeping the deck up to date and legit

Spike Jester really is an awesome faster replacement for KoI that this deck really needed to help keep pace in the aggro mirror race situation g1.

I havn't seen much of an explaination for the Frostburn Weird but I do remember trying this guy out when RtR first dropped in
RDW. I have not played with him much, but hyper-aggro has always been the hardest deck for me to play against and its pretty clear the sideboard is largely devoted to the aggro matchup. Just feels like there is more powerful decks out there but maybe not. I really liked Hound of Grislebrand against aggro, control and midrange out of the sideboard but it looks like you guys dropped him. No love?

[dpaine88]

Oh and now that Bant Pants is even better, I think tribute to hunter/ devour flesh deserves a sideboard spot condsideration.

[windstrider]

Oh and now that Bant Pants is even better, I think tribute to hunter/ devour flesh deserves a sideboard spot condsideration.

I've been thinking about it. I played a deck like that, and the only thing that gave me problems was a flying Geist. The Stalkers were annoying, but they didn't have the power level to outrace the damage the new list can put out. The problem with the sacrifice effects is that Bant Pants is the only deck I would use them against. If it becomes a more dominant deck, then I'd put them in.

The Weird is excellent against Aggro strategies, especially on the sideboard plan where we take out our small stuff. They bring in burn to kill Nobles and Cacklers, and we bring in 4-toughness guys.

As for Hound of Griselbrand, no one
doubts that it's a great creature, but it's more defensive in a deck that wants to be offensive more quickly. It doesn't feel like a good fit for the deck right now.

[dpaine88]

Ahh ok, the problem for me is that Unflinching Courage allows a stalker to race us pretty easily unless we have a ton of gas. Add another enchant or two and it's very hard to stop the life gain.


I also remember doubling Tribute to Hunger as a kill spell in the aggro mirror since the life gain can give you that extra turn.

Have any of you brought the deck to any bigger events than FNM? Seems like the versatility would pay off against a large field instead of the typical aggro-heavy field you find at FNM. Lotta TCG Diamond 5ks and States champs coming up soon.

I think the deck has a good shot too since B/R zombies has been top8 here n there and I fully believe we are better than that deck. Least with all the hyper aggro decks around, zombies has a worse aggro mirror than us

[dpaine88]

Oh and just a suggestion for the primer for me or anyone or whoever else wants to write up a much more specific matchup/sideboard section.

Breaking it down into the variants of each and also the new decks. Addition to the sideboard plans a little blurb on the matchup itself and what each deck tries to do.

Basically: Naya Blitz, Mono-Red, Bant Hexproof, Bant Flash, UWR , Esper, Reanimator, Jund Midrange, The Aristocrats

Might start typing some up tonight after some more playtesting.

[windstrider]

Oh and just a suggestion for the primer for me or anyone or whoever else wants to write up a much more specific matchup/sideboard section.

Breaking it down into the variants of each and also the new decks. Addition to the sideboard plans a little blurb on the matchup itself and what each deck tries to do.

Basically: Naya Blitz, Mono-Red, Bant Hexproof, Bant Flash, UWR , Esper, Reanimator, Jund Midrange, The Aristocrats

Might start typing some up tonight after some more playtesting.

Excellent idea. If anyone wants to type these up, then I'll add them to the primer page.

[dpaine88]

Naya Blitz/Mono Red - This is one of our toughest matchups as we don't race quite as well as other aggro decks and our top end(Falkenwrath) lines up poorly in defense. Ash Zealot, Boros Reckoner and Noble(for Blitz) are the key creatures to game 1 as they are amazing defenders. The maindeck burn can be used to kill difficult creatures such as Mayor of Avabrook and Hellrider/ Pyreheart Wolf. The other downside to this matchup is that we intend to 1-for-1 to start and stabilize the board to drop our big guys but Burning-Tree Emmisary throws a wrench in that plan if your opponent can cast many creatures on one turn but you might only be able to cast one spell a turn. Game 1 is not really in our favor, which explains the extreme aggro bias in the sideboard. In general, aside from zombies, we cannot realistically expect to race other aggro decks, although Spike Jester does certainly help there. The best plan of action in game 2/
3 is the classic "Go Big" plan. Our 1-drops look pretty lackluster compared to Experiment One and Champion of the Parish and even Boros Elite so we cannot compete here, we must transition into a midrangey control strategy. Our goal is to 1-for-1 them and keep the board clear till we can drop our bigger threats and win the game. Sideboard out your underpowered early beats for more removal and impactful creatures.

Bant Hexproof- This is a deck that got some real help from DGM in the form of Unfliching Courage, which is downright nasty , and Voice of Resurgance. Luckily, we are well positioned for VoR game 1 but it will give us some trouble if we don't have the corrosponding Pillar of Flame. An Unflinching Courage on an Invisable Stalker can be really really hard to beat. Bant Hex is more consistent now and is quite strong. Logical consideration must be paid to including sacrifice effects into the sideboard, but it depends on your local meta.


Jund - Normally, I wouldn't feel very good
in the matchup ,especially with small sideboard options, but the full big package of flying baddies really helps give the deck staying power opposed to the lower curve aggro decks that run out of gas and have low-impact topdecks turns 5+. If Jund uses their removal on your Cacklers and Zealots, Thundermaw will lead you to victory. Olvia is still a problem and must be stopped here. Bonfire is also really bad for us but mostly it is only effective if they miracle it. At least in game 1, be weary of holding too many cards back now with Sire of Insanity and Rakdos Return. Also if they do get a board going, Mizzium Mortors overload kills everything.

Esper Control - This deck is currently in decline, which is too bad becuase we are not that bad against control compared to some other aggro decks due to the high top end and Stonewright. The key to this matchup is to keep just 1-2 creatures on the board at a time and force their hand while keeping a strong array of follow-up cards. Stonewright is great here
and is a must-answer or else you get incredible value of your lands while holding onto your very valuable cards in hand. You don't get to draw another hand like they do, so your cards have to count. Aristocrat is your key to victory but do keep an eye open for Dissipate if they have been spending mana on your early guys. In the sideboarded games, just bring in Rakdos Return, a game-winner, against control. Keep your curve nice and low to get the pressure going early and often.

Reanimator - Saldly, I feel our deck is a bit weaker to Reanimator than your typical aggro deck that can kill faster than us. An Angel of Serenity can be back-breaking and we rarely win by turn 4. Still have to kill quickly. Our flyers are really our key to victory here and getting your spells out asap to minimize the effects of Slime..

U/W/R - This really can go either way depending on the list's being run but this deck is losing popularity. Sometime they just can 1-for-1 you every turn till t4 and they just Rev to get
wayyy ahead.

Heres just a little bit, I bet you loyal gentleman can write it up even better as you have more exp with the current meta.

[dpaine88]

Oh and also, feel free to disagree on how you view the matchups, I have not been playing the deck as much as you recently but did play the deck for many many months.

[windstrider]

Updated the Primer to include dpaine's analysis. I also moved Tribute to Hunger into the Sideboard section of Show Time to reflect the rising popularity of Bant Hexproof.

And I created a banner for the Primer.

[redthirst]

Do we like Tribute over Devour Flesh?

Is the little bit of life gain one way or the other big enough of a deal to pay 1 more for? I'm asking because I honestly don't know - I've played that MU maybe a half dozen times and none since they got new Cloak.

[windstrider]

Do we like Tribute over Devour Flesh?

Is the little bit of life gain one way or the other big enough of a deal to pay 1 more for? I'm asking because I honestly don't know - I've played that MU maybe a half dozen times and none since they got new Cloak.

I like Tribute over Devour simply because I don't like rewarding the other guy by giving him life and time to build another dude. There have been several games where all I needed was one more turn to kill someone, and I feel that Tribute would help in that regards. I also have not played that deck that much, so this might be the wrong call.

I don't know what I'd want to take out of the sideboard to add in the Tributes, though.

[dpaine88]

I think Tribute is the way to go because it can double against the aggro mirror where lifegain can help us a good bit.

Oh btw, I was completely tanked when I wrote the matchup thing, gonna revise one once I am sober

[dpaine88]

So to me, it just feels like 4 Reckoner and 3 Pillar is the right setup, could you guys elaborate on your strategy to only go with 3 Reckoner? Especially in a control-light meta like we currently have, he seems really good against aggro and midrange.

[RDW]

I took the most recent Dos Rakis list (with 3 PoF / 4 BR split) with redthirst's sideboard (plan) to a 4-2 finish at a 50-person FNM. One loss was my fault, and the other was the deck's. I'll report later, but this deck is still as solid as ever.

[finn62]

I ran the current Dos Rakis list for the second consecutive week. I mowed through mainly control and mid-range (although I did beat a Gruul Aggro deck) . My only loss before the finals was a mirror. In the finals I lost a close one to a Green, Red, Blue control. I couldn't be happier with where this deck and the SB are right now.
Rakdos Returns was huge for me last night. Frostburn didn't help last night, but was nice the week before. I need more work with Olivia. I don't feel like I use her correctly all the time.