[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[LP, of the Fires]

I much prefer Draft to Sealed. If you end up with a shitty card pool in Draft (or, shitty-er than the average card pool at your table, anyway) then that's something you can work on and improve in the future. If you end up with a shitty card pool in Sealed - oh well - it's not like you can practice opening better packs.

In every other format everyone either starts with the exact same pool of cards to make their decks from or you have some say in what your pool of cards looks like - in Sealed it's completely luck-based.

A crap shoot.

That's why I say fuck it and plan on just taking a guild I'm comfortable with.

I'd say as much as you can practice drafting, you can practice building sealed pools similarly(if not quite the same). You may
not have say in what your pool looks like in sealed, but you do in your decklist and even then if you register garbage, you can often figure it out and board into the deck you didn't decide to play which you here pro players commenting on at every limited GP.

I concede that sealed is strictly speaking more luck based since in draft you are making more choices, but I think it's a myth that draft is the skilled format and sealed is all luck. I think on a sliding scale of luck involved from 1 to 10, 1 being chess and 10 being Russian roulette, people put draft at a 2 and sealed at an 8 when it's more of 4 and 5 respectively(or something like that, the numbers are made up).

[photodyer]

LK, I think you have the right of it. We are all coming at this from the perspective of primarily Constructed mentality, and for lack of a better comparison that's like a team volleyball player trying to apply their strategy set to beach volleyball. It may be the same game, but it ain't the same game!

Just like any other format, there are folks who excel in Limited formats. My nephew is all about Limited; he spends his time organizing and running IRL tournaments, so he has not been able to realistically participate in the Constructed season for years. However, he can jump into a Draft or Sealed queue at any time--and does. There are a number of other players around here that only play these formats, because it's where they focus and what they enjoy; they study and understand the various archetypes that are strongest within any given Limited format, and they know at a glance at a Sealed pool
what their best bet will be. It is not about luck for them beyond what percentage of the best card interactions they pull for a given archetype. They study, make spreadsheets (I'm looking at you, master lorddax), and know the best possible decks that can be built within the set; they aren't taking bombs and trying to cobble a deck around them, but rather looking at groups of card effects that will provide them consistent engines. They know which archetypes play better against others, and they can hit a pretty damned consistent win percentage in a Sealed event. If you doubt this, go out an do a few searches; you will find articles detailing the strongest archetype options for any given Limited set, as well as the different cards that can be combined to make these archetypes run. It's a very specific skill set within Magic, and I have serious respect for the players with this talent because I tend to get tunnel vision rather than being able to do this kind of "big picture" analysis.

That
being said, as LK points out, there is more of a component of luck in Limited formats than in Constructed simply because your card pool is randomized. But a good Sealed player with a mediocre pool is going to do better on average than a poor/inexperienced Sealed player with a god pool. The dude with a deck full of bombs is going to get random blowouts, but the Sealed aficionado who constructed a consistent mid-power deck and knows how to play it is going to excel in the long run.

[redthirst]

I'm not sure if y'all are honestly not getting my point or if you're being contradictory just for the sake of it.

Please tell me which point you disagree with:

1. The plays you can make are limited by the deck you build - I consider this a fact: you cannot make plays that are not in your deck.
2. The deck you can build is based on your card pool - Another fact: you cannot build your deck from cards that are unavailable.
3. The card pool in Sealed is random - A third fact: you are given a (mostly-to-completely) random assortment of cards to build from.

And I get that proper card evaluation and deck building will mitigate the luck factor of your card pool just like proper deck building and playing will mitigate the luck factor of variance - I'm not claiming different - but that doesn't mean that the entire foundation of your tournament performance (your card pool) isn't completely, 100%, a crap shoot.

[Khaospawn]

Everyone makes great point about Sealed format but I personally hate it. I think what appeals the most about Magic to me is that I can have an idea, construct the deck, and then enjoy playing the deck. With Sealed, it's more or less (to me) here's your pile of cards, cross your fingers and hope that you open a bomb, and then build the best deck you can out of the pile of crap you just opened. Meanwhile, the jerk across from you is going, "Whee! Look at me! I get to play with TWO Domri Rades!"

Actually, that guy was me at a GTC Prerelease. But, for example, during the RTR prerelease, I pulled, no joke, 3 Conjured Currency in my packs. How the flying fuck does that happen? My pool was crap and I lost 2 games in a row before dropping in disgust.

As much as I hate Sealed though, I do enjoy a good draft every once in awhile. I think it's because I feel like I have some control over what I'm building. I'm not
that good at drafting but I can always manage to build a solid deck that I'll enjoy playing a few rounds with.

[TubeHunter]

I personally don't like sealed, but I'm pretty crap at any limited event, so take that at what it is. I've just never really took the time to improve, focusing more on improvment in constructed.

[redthirst]

On a completely different note does anyone else find this post ironic?

You know... quoting zem to scold me right after doing something like asking a question that had already been answered in the thread - which was a pretty well known irritant of zem's.

[TubeHunter]

Well to be fair, we were disrupting the discussion on there, no matter how half-brained it might be. Not that it bothers me, I have a total of 3 posts on MTGS since the move anyway. Though it was pretty ironic.

[windstrider]

I actually like Sealed, especially the Prereleases, because of the variance. No one knows what they are going to be playing before they open those packs. I have just as much chance of pulling some good stuff as I am at pulling bad stuff, and that goes for everyone there. What I don't like is how some players react to what they've opened. Ur not an awesom dood for pulling three good mythics out of six packs.

For what it's worth, I agree with redthirst's assessment. Basically, what you can do is limited by what you open. If you get a good set of cards, you can build a good deck. If you get a decent set of cards, you can build a decent deck. If you get a bad set of cards, you get to build a bad deck. Skill levels matter at both card evaluation and playing, but you can't make a pile of gold out of shit and straw.

[redthirst]

Well to be fair, we were disrupting the discussion on there, no matter how half-brained it might be. Not that it bothers me, I have a total of 3 posts on MTGS since the move anyway.

Personally, I consider the fact that we made that guy have to actually read the thread to find out that his question had already been answered at least once to be a victory.

His attitude sucks though: "I had to find my answer on page 3 because none of you could be bothered to drop the discussion you were having long enough to do what I wanted you to."

[TubeHunter]

Well to be fair, we were disrupting the discussion on there, no matter how half-brained it might be. Not that it bothers me, I have a total of 3 posts on MTGS since the move anyway.

Personally, I consider the fact that we made that guy have to actually read the thread to find out that his question had already been answered at least once to be a victory.

His attitude sucks though: "I had to find my answer on page 3 because none of you could be bothered to drop the discussion you were having long enough to do what I wanted you to."

Agreed. Looking is super secret tech.

Also: MUST HAVE PROMO CACKLERS.

[windstrider]

Someone proposed Blood Scrivener as a replacement for Knight of Infamy in Dos Rakis. That's not right.

[TubeHunter]

Someone proposed Blood Scrivener as a replacement for Knight of Infamy in Dos Rakis. That's not right.

But windstider, it can draw you two Cards!

[Platypus]

Also: MUST HAVE PROMO CACKLERS.

Oh yeah! I'm usually not much for promos/foils, but I'd like a couple of those.

[photodyer]

I actually like Sealed, especially the Prereleases, because of the variance. No one knows what they are going to be playing before they open those packs. I have just as much chance of pulling some good stuff as I am at pulling bad stuff, and that goes for everyone there. What I don't like is how some players react to what they've opened. Ur not an awesom dood for pulling three good mythics out of six packs.

For what it's worth, I agree with redthirst's assessment. Basically, what you can do is limited by what you open. If you get a good set of cards, you can build a good deck. If you get a decent set of cards, you can build a decent deck. If you get a bad set of cards, you get to build a bad deck. Skill levels matter at both card evaluation and playing, but you
can't make a pile of gold out of shit and straw.

I think you get to the heart of the issue, ws--what is "shit" in a Sealed pool? My contention is to someone like me coming at Sealed with the eyes of a Constructed player, I get hung up on my BREAD analysis if I can't see a clear path in a major color theme. But a seasoned Sealed player can look at the pile of chaos I see and come out with recognizing the essential elements of an evasion/pump-based attrition deck that will perform consistently and thus rack wins over swingy, inconsistent, built-around-a-bomb decks.

There is no question that some pulls are better than others; I'm simply saying that defining a "better" or "worse" pull goes beyond the skills that most of us who only do the odd PR to get our mitts on the new cards have honed. It's a different approach to card/deck evaluation than we use in Constructed, because as Alex was saying, it is keyed on the ability to pull back and look at the
pool as a whole in a big-picture sense rather than going myopic on individual cards as we often do in Standard.

Bottom line, I totally accept that pull pools are a random entity. But knowing the prevalent themes within a set, the viable archetypes and different approaches to getting there are anything but random, and having that particular skill set mitigates many of the issues inherent in a random card pool.

Time for me to nap now...then off to MU-Columbia and back before PR tonight.

[photodyer]

Someone proposed Blood Scrivener as a replacement for Knight of Infamy in Dos Rakis. That's not right.

Can I please get a big AMEN, brothers. I remember seeing that, too...was it an SCD of the card and did rt shoot it down? I'm too groggy to be sure...

[photodyer]

Also: MUST HAVE PROMO CACKLERS.

Oh yeah! I'm usually not much for promos/foils, but I'd like a couple of those.

The new foils are cool, but I love the current art. Cackler is just so obviously malign in that image...he's a badass little devil!

[redthirst]

Someone proposed Blood Scrivener as a replacement for Knight of Infamy in Dos Rakis. That's not right.

Can I please get a big AMEN, brothers. I remember seeing that, too...was it an SCD of the card and did rt shoot it down? I'm too groggy to be sure...

Yeah, people seem to think that if they want the card to be Bob hard enough that it will be.

Bob is:

• Step 1 -
  Play Bob
  Step 2 - Profit

Scrivener is:

• Step 1 - Play Scrivener
  Step 2 - Meet a condition that you have to build your deck to meet but won't be available until, at least, turn 4 anyway and then opens you up to being completely blown out by a myrad of sweepers being played
  Step 3 - Profit

For whatever reason, some people want to pretend like Step 2 doesn't mean anything.

[Platypus]

I actually like Sealed, especially the Prereleases, because of the variance. No one knows what they are going to be playing before they open those packs. I have just as much chance of pulling some good stuff as I am at pulling bad stuff, and that goes for everyone there. What I don't like is how some players react to what they've opened. Ur not an awesom dood for pulling three good mythics out of six packs.

For what it's worth, I agree with redthirst's assessment. Basically, what you can do is limited by what you open. If you get a good set of cards, you can build a good deck. If you get a decent set of
cards, you can build a decent deck. If you get a bad set of cards, you get to build a bad deck. Skill levels matter at both card evaluation and playing, but you can't make a pile of gold out of shit and straw.

I think you get to the heart of the issue, ws--what is "shit" in a Sealed pool? My contention is to someone like me coming at Sealed with the eyes of a Constructed player, I get hung up on my BREAD analysis if I can't see a clear path in a major color theme. But a seasoned Sealed player can look at the pile of chaos I see and come out with recognizing the essential elements of an evasion/pump-based attrition deck that will perform consistently and thus rack wins over swingy, inconsistent, built-around-a-bomb decks.

There is no question that some pulls are better than others; I'm simply saying that defining a "better" or "worse" pull goes beyond the skills that most of us who only do the odd PR to get our mitts on the new cards have honed. It's
a different approach to card/deck evaluation than we use in Constructed, because as Alex was saying, it is keyed on the ability to pull back and look at the pool as a whole in a big-picture sense rather than going myopic on individual cards as we often do in Standard.

Bottom line, I totally accept that pull pools are a random entity. But knowing the prevalent themes within a set, the viable archetypes and different approaches to getting there are anything but random, and having that particular skill set mitigates many of the issues inherent in a random card pool.

I agree with this. It's something I've noticed as well during my sealed plays with my friend. Even when I've pulled some pretty good cards that I felt very confident with, he comes around with a 4 color deck that has so good synergy he just wins most of the games anyway. Of course, there's been times when one of us have pulled such bomb-heavy or removal-heavy pools that the other hasn't got the faintest chance of winning.
But in general, because he somehow sees those card synergies better than me he almost always manages to win most of our games. Despite the card pools.

[windstrider]

Do people on Sally just not remember what they write in the very same thread?

On Spike Jester: "It can't match the value of BTE, so ... it doesn't get to save dos rakis." (Stupid comparisons aside)
redthirst responds.
Same guy: "'Saving grace' not my actual point." Then why the hell did you just dismiss the card for that very reason?

[Aesnath]

I know this is kinda odd, since I wasn't really involved in the construction/maintenance of the R/x forum, but I'm rather enjoying some of these conflicts.

When tubehunter suggested vexing devil a few days ago, I really lost it. So flippin' funny.

I also really enjoyed S_A's definition of competitive magic--very inclusive.

Also--I really like RT's little zinger at the end.

[redthirst]

Do people on Sally just not remember what they write in the very same thread?

On Spike Jester: "It can't match the value of BTE, so ... it doesn't get to save dos rakis." (Stupid comparisons aside)
redthirst responds.
Same guy: "'Saving grace' not my actual point." Then why the hell did you just dismiss the card for that very reason?

That's Midnight - he's actually a FoS member and I try to be less of a dick to y'all. Besides, I was more than enough of a dick to him before we established a clan - though, in my defense, he did deserve it then.

[redthirst]

Still... that may be a little too good not to point out.

[lorddax]

So I worked out a "cheat sheet" notation for each of the sets, do you guys want me to post it? It shows the removal and evasion for each color, each color pair and each guild plus how much of that number is at the common/uncommon slot. Fits on a post it now

[redthirst]

Yeah man, that's good stuff.

[rcwraspy]

wait, promo cacklers? WHERE?!?!?!?

[Platypus]

Go ahead!

[TubeHunter]

Sure Lorddax, I could use all the info I can get for the Prerelease, even though I'll probably just pick rakdos.

[Platypus]

wait, promo cacklers? WHERE?!?!?!?

It's the July FNM promo:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/A ... rcana/1219

[TubeHunter]

wait, promo cacklers? WHERE?!?!?!?

It's the July FNM promo, so a long way off, but I want 4 of them.

EDIT: Sniped by a platypus.

EDIT2: Yay for useless achievements! 100 posts!

[redthirst]

What happened windstrider? I was all ready to see what you were going to write in the Spiked Gobo thread.

[rcwraspy]

wait, promo cacklers? WHERE?!?!?!?

It's the July FNM promo:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/A ... rcana/1219

[windstrider]

What happened windstrider? I was all ready to see what you were going to write in the Spiked Gobo thread.

Wife woke up while the baby was asleep. Nooky time takes precedent.

[redthirst]

Okay... understandable.

[rcwraspy]

What happened windstrider? I was all ready to see what you were going to write in the Spiked Gobo thread.

Wife woke up while the baby was asleep. Nooky time takes precedent.

Best excuse ever.

Also, has that Lasav quote been in your signature for a while or was it a recent update?

[Link]

I think I rather have more pillar of flame searing spear promos TBH, the original cackler art is so adorably menacing.

ANYWAY Alex I want to see those screenshots of last night's hands.

Also your decklist, althought from what I saw I think you were playing something like this:

16x Stonewright
12x Stromkirk Noble
2x Midnight Haunting
3x Boros Reckoner
3x Nearheath Pilgrim
22x Mountain
1x Clifftop Retreat
1x Slayer's Stronghold

SB:
8x Restoration angel (which you never sided in for reasons I can't discern)
4x Volcanic Strength
1x Searing Spear
2x Rhox Faithmender


am I close?

[Valdarith]

Do people on Sally just not remember what they write in the very same thread?

On Spike Jester: "It can't match the value of BTE, so ... it doesn't get to save dos rakis." (Stupid comparisons aside)
redthirst responds.
Same guy: "'Saving grace' not my actual point." Then why the hell did you just dismiss the card for that very reason?

Pack mentality at its finest.

lorddax - please post it. I'm still having trouble deciding if I'm going Gruul or Orzhov.

[windstrider]

What happened windstrider? I was all ready to see what you were going to write in the Spiked Gobo thread.

Wife woke up while the baby was asleep. Nooky time takes precedent.

Best excuse ever.

Also, has that Lasav quote been in your signature for a while or was it a recent update?

I thought so as well.

I just added the Lazav quote yesterday. Seemed to fit.

[windstrider]

I responded with this:

"It can't match the value of BTE, so ... it doesn't get to save dos rakis."
"'Saving grace' not my actual point."

These two statements contradict each other, so why did you just dismiss the card for that very reason? I'm confused.

It's a false comparison anyway. Decks built around BTE go for the speed kill, which is much more aggressive than Dos Rakis, which seeks to have a strong early game followed by a resilient, overwhelming mid to late game. The Jester fits that gameplan perfectly, allowing for 5 damage on turn two.

I'd argue that two creatures for 5 damage is better card advantage than 3 creatures for 6 damage using BTE. Jester, by itself, trades with more things than BTE does as well.

Jester is going to be a very good card for Dos Rakis to use.

[redthirst]

Good response - less snide than I would have been.

[windstrider]

Good response - less snide than I would have been.

He wasn't being obnoxious. Not like that moron in the Reckoner thread. We'll see how he responds.

I am really starting to dislike people who compare cards based solely on CMC. OMIGAWD! It's a 2-drop, so it must be interchangeable with every other 2-drop in every archetype.