[Primer] Dos Rakis

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[Primer] Dos Rakis

Postby Nuwen » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:44 pm

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Last Edited
Added [card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card] and Chandra, Pyromancer to the Show Time section.


Updates 5/16/2013
Added The Competition, a section containing dpaine88's analysis of the current decks. Moved Tribute to Hunger to the Sideboard area of the Show Time section to reflect the rise of Bant Hexproof.

Updates 5/10/2013
Added Pyrewild Shaman and [card]
Rakdos Keyrune[/card] to the Understudy section. Moved Ultimate Price to the Sideboard area of the Show Time section. Fixed the Sideboard of the Matinee deck to add in the missing Reckoner.

Updates 5/9/2013
An overhaul of the spoiler sections, breaking creatures and spells down to main deck and sideboard. I've added the Understudy section that discusses creatures that just aren't quite right for the deck but might be a consideration.

I want this to be a thread where we can bring Dos Rakis back into the limelight and restore it to its former glory. Red and Black complement each other very well and should be well positioned with the tools necessary to compete favorably in this meta.

LP, of the Fires wrote of Dos Rakis:
"While I don't think this was quite our first love, the
affectionately named Dos Rakis no doubt holds a special place in the hearts of the Founding Flames of The Fires of Salvation clan. This. Deck. Is. Power. You have the typical aggro curve that all the other aggro decks have, but instead of quad Hellrider, you have quad Falkenrath Aristocrat which is tremendously more durable and unrelenting, no matter the board state. There are tons of tricks that this deck has, especially when you introduce threaten affects and cards like Brimstone Volley. Sometimes, your opponent doesn't know that they're just dead. This deck has one million haste guys, can recover from anything, and enjoys employing the aid of hasty fliers ignoring board stalls. To boot, black has solid if not exciting board options; aside from Olivia Voldaren. I love her. The issues come from lacking sufficient(or any) mana sinks and being much more reliant on the 4th land drop
then the other red decks. Still, UNLIMITED POWER. The big downside is that you're pretty bad in the mirror. Not the best deck choice in an aggro heavy metagame."

First, a recap of where the deck has been. These decklists and card choices are pre-GTC.
Decks from the past
[deck=LP, of the Fires's version]
Lands 24
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Godless Shrine
12 Mountain

Creatures 28
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Hellrider
2 Zealous Conscripts

Spells 8
3 Searing Spear
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Ultimate Price
1 Traitorous Blood
[/deck]

Other recent versions of the deck look like this:


[deck=Redthirst's version 02/07/13]
Lands 23
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Rakdos Guildgate
10 Mountain

Creatures 29
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Knight of Infamy
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
n2 Thundermaw Hellkite

Spells 8
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Sideboard 15
4 Dreadbore
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Rakdos Charm
2 Sever the Bloodline
2 Olivia Voldaren
[/deck]

[Deck=windstrider's version]
Lands 24
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
11 Mountain
2 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Swamp

Creatures 26
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Ash Zealot
4 Knight of Infamy
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Thundermaw Hellkite

Spells 10
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Searing Spear

Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Ultimate Price
2 Hound of Griselbrand
1 Olivia Voldaren
2 Slaughter Games
2 Zealous Conscripts
[/DECK]
Show Time: Our main line up
These creatures and spells deserve the spotlight and main billing.
Creatures

Maindeck

CMC 1
[card]
Rakdos Cackler[/card] The little demon who could. Early pressure is a good thing, and this guy provides it, especially on the play with his newest friend, Spike Jester. Unleash him and let him go. He's such an unassuming little fellow that still gets in for a good 4-6 points of damage.

Stromkirk Noble The best red 1-drop. Get him down turn one and watch the opponent cringe. If they can't answer him or block him, then the Noble can take over a game by itself. Not optimal as a top-deck card in the mid to late game where he becomes a chump blocker or an Aristocrat snack. Still, that's the price you sometimes pay for awesomeness.

Stonewright One of the weaknesses of red/black is that our creatures tend to be packed with value but attached to a smaller body. Enter the Stonewright to even the odds. Stonewright paired with Rakdos Cackler, [card]Ash Zealot[/
card], or Spike Jester, allows those creatures to trade with much bigger threats. He's an excellent topdeck draw in the later stages of the game when you can abuse him like the mana sink he is. He's fragile but potentially very powerful.

CMC 2
Ash Zealot Talk about value. Haste, first strike, and flashback hate all stapled to a respectable 2/2 body. An auto 4-of in almost every build. There had better be a very good reason she's not in the deck. She's an all-star.

Spike Jester is the best new toy we got from Dragon's Maze. The Jester provides a lot of early pressure. His 3-power and haste make him a Lightning Bolt on legs. He trades with much bigger guys and can prevent a lot of decks from establishing a good board presence. His [mana]rb[/mana] casting cost requires a heavier concentration of black sources to
cast him on curve, so adjust your mana accordingly.

CMC 3
Boros Reckoner One of the best creatures to appear in years, the Reckoner is a force to be reckoned with. He can kill creatures much bigger than him though damage redirection, and his first-strike can kill anything similarly sized. His triple-red/white casting cost is his only real drawback in a dual-colored deck, though the addition of Godless Shrines to the manabase helps get both him and our black creatures out more easily.

[card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card] A weenier hasty, evasive creature with value recursive to each red burn source played.

CMC 4
Falkenrath Aristocrat One of the reasons to play Dos Rakis. Do not be fooled by her 1 toughness. This sexy, hasty, evasive, resilient vampire laughs at most damage and can quickly end games.

[card]
Chandra, Pyromancer[/card] Compliments our initial plan to play fragile creatures, then transition to evasive/reach cards. Her +0 allows us to see more of our threat-dense deck.


CMC 5
Thundermaw Hellkite The best dragon in Standard and the bane of flying creatures everywhere. Hellkite is the finisher of choice in most sledgehammer builds.

Sideboard options
Frostburn Weird The Weird is more attractive now that the fast aggro lists are on the rise. Good on defense, it can also get in for a respectable amount of damage.

Knight of Infamy Don't be deceived by his small stature. This Knight packs quite a punch. His exalted provides pseudo-haste for our one drops, enabling them to trade with bigger guys. And his pro-white allows him to ride right on past bigger white creatures and avoid white-based counters to swing in for 3 or more damage. A very
good card, and one of the best reasons to go with black, especially with white cards everywhere. He's fallen out of favor recently as the deck has transitioned into a faster early game.

Lightning Mauler A lot of our guys have haste already. Mauler is there for those who don't, like Boros Reckoner or Olivia Voldaren. If you need even more haste, bring him in.

Olivia Voldaren Against the right decks, she's a monster. If they can't answer her, they die to her. She's a very powerful creature with a lot of interesting options. Bring her in against Aggro and Midrange.

Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch A very powerful option from Dragon's Maze, Exava is currently overshadowed by Falkenrath Aristocrat and Olivia Voldaren in the 4-drop slot. As a hasty 4-power, first striker, she is very tempting and could serve as a pseudo-Falkenrath 5-6.
n
Hellrider Once a headliner for Dos Rakis, Hellrider was replaced by that sexy monster Falkenrath Aristocrat for more resiliency. If you run a lot of smaller creatures, he's worth another look. His reach is amazing, and two of them on the field are just glorious together. He dies a lot, though, which is something to consider in a removal-thick meta.

Zealous Conscripts She's a hasty 3/3 that steals their best permanent (creature, planeswalker, artifact, or land) and uses it against them. The Conscripts works very well with Falkenrath Aristocrat since you can sac their creature to her after you're done beating them with it. A lot of interesting options in one card.
Spells
Maindeck

CMC 1
Pillar of Flame Pillar is an excellent damage spell for
killing small guys, especially Silverblade Paladin, Champion of the Parish, and opposing Stromkirk Nobles and Ash Zealots. Bonus: It exiles problem cards like Voice of Resurgence and Blood Artist without triggering their abilities, which is an important consideration. If you're seeing lots of aggro, this is a good choice. Can also go to the face for a few points.

CMC 2
Searing Spear Other decks have begun using this precisely because it is an incredibly useful spell. Kill 3 toughness or less creatures instantly or go 3 to the face. Deceptively powerful, this card can get in those last points of damage to win. How many of your opponents have looked up after combat has reduced their life totals and said "You have a Spear, don't you?
"

Sideboard Options
Mizzium Mortars With all the 4-toughness things running around, this is an excellent removal spell for when Pillar falls short. There are those few special times when you get to overload this sucker and wipe out everything on the other side. Good times.

Dreadbore A kill spell without restrictions that also nukes opposing Planeswalkers. If you're playing this deck, you should be playing some amount of this card.


Ultimate Price Let's get this out of the way first: yes, there are a lot of creatures this does not kill. There are, however, a lot of creatures it does kill: Hellrider, Thundermaw Hellkite, Restoration Angel, Griselbrand, and Angel of Serenity, etc. If you see a
lot of mono-colored creatures like these, then this spell deserves a slot. I predict this card's value will rise with the release of the new sets.

[card]Rakdos's Return[/card] Direct damage is good. Discard is good. Put both of them together, and you get an excellent card. Very useful against control decks that like to draw a lot of cards. Control players like options. Deny them those options. Also a good late-game mana sink for getting in those last few points of damage. Works wonders against midrange decks.

[card]Devil's Play[/card] Like Rakdos's Return above, this is a great mana sink for dealing a lot of damage. Unlike Rakdos's Return, this can kill creatures. Use accordingly.

Flames of the Firebrand This card's usefulness rises and falls with the surrounding metagame. If you're plagued by lots of small creatures like mana dorks and spirit tokens, then this is a better choice than Mizzium Mortars. Its
ability to burn to the face should not be overlooked either. In a world full of big creatures, though Mizzium Mortars is better.

Brimstone Volley Five damage for three mana is pretty good, especially since it kills big monsters and players dead. And then there are times when it's a worse Searing Spear, which is ok too. With lifegain from 'tusk and Revelation running rampant in some areas, this becomes a good choice for dealing damage quickly.

Tribute to Hunger The instant-speed and the lifegain are what make this card attractive. Not-so-good with lots of dorks and tokens though with Hexproof Bant on the rise thanks to Unfinching Courage, this deserves consideration.
Understudy cards: not quite ready for the main stage.
These creatures and spells just don't quite make it right now, but their time may come. These are
options for a meta shift.
Creatures
Legion Loyalist A Gatecrash card that hasn't seen much play, Loyalist could give our guys a lot of power if we can make use of it. He's more of a build-around card.

Thrill-kill Assassin Her deathtouch and toughness make her special. Do you need a 1/2 deathtouch blocker or a 2/3 deathtouch attacker? In a meta full of big ground creatures, she can trade favorably with the biggest of them, but she just doesn't get there on her own. Worth a look if you can give her first-strike.

Gore-house Chainwalker Used a lot in previous builds, the Chainwalker has fallen out of favor. But with bigger creatures sitting across the field, his time might come again. A 3/2 can do quite a lot of damage on his own. Currently outclassed by Spike Jester.

Vampire Nighthawk A deathtouch, lifelink evasive
creature? What's not to love about this guy? He has double-black in his cost, he's slow, and he's just not resilient enough. It's an awesome creature, but it doesn't quite fit in this deck.

Hellhole Flailer Before Reckoner, this guy was used in quite a few lists. After Reckoner, he's been effectively sidelined. He's an aggressive monster, though, and can get in quite a lot of damage. Pair him up with Knight of Infamy, and those exalted triggers enable you to get in damage even against stalled board states. Might be an interesting choice for an Exava-themed deck, but he doesn't fit in Dos Rakis right now.

Rakdos Keyrune This card has been played in Dos Rakis before, both for its mana acceleration and as a 3-power first striker. It dodges sorcery-speed removal. It's a bit too slow for the current version of the deck, though.
Spells
[card:
3v6erh1r]Tragic Slip[/card] For the right price, this spell kills everything. If you can enable morbid, then this is an excellent choice for an instant-speed kill spell. It's not as good for Dos Rakis.

Duress There are quite a few things out there that we don't want to see: Blind Obedience, Rancor, [card]Sphinx's Revelation[/card], Assemble the Legion, planeswalkers, etc. Get rid of them before you need to worry about them.

Appetite for Brains With the rise of Reanimator and the prevalance of big creatures like Thragtusk, Resto Angel, Angel of Serenity, Craterhoof Behemoth, and Griselbrand, this card could be seeing more play. Right now, our removal options are so much better choices.

Electrickery There aren't as many 1-toughness creatures running
around right now, but they are there. If you're worried about mana dorks, this can kill Pilgrim and Arbor Elf and any buddies they bring along. Kills spirit tokens all day long. Potentially a 2-for-1 or even 3-for-1 for 2 mana. If you're looking for this effect, look at Flames of the Firebrand first since it can hit bigger creatures and burn to the face.

Rakdos Charm All three modes are useful. Reanimator getting you down? Exile their graveyard just as they cast Unburial Rites. [card]Runechanter's Pike[/card] hurting you? Blow it or their graveyard up. Assemble the Legion about to run you over? Smack them with their own soldiers. The choice is yours. Use it.

Devour Flesh An edict that gains the enemy life is not something we usually want to be using. However, if you're beset by an enchanted Invisible Stalker, this is
a good way to kill it. Note that you can use it on your own creatures for the lifegain as well.

Victim of Night One of the best instant-speed removal spells available if you have a heavy concentration of black. As with any double black mana costs, there will be times when this is a dead card in hand. That is not a good situation to be in.

Murder It's really a more expensive version of Victim of Night without restrictions. That three mana cost makes this much less attractive, however. Its ability to kill anything at instant speed is very tempting.

Traitorous Blood What's better than stealing their biggest creature and attacking them with it? Giving it trample. Steal the creature, attack, then sac it to Aristocrat. Note that you can also use this on your own creature to give it trample.

Sever the Bloodline There are times when you'll use
this to get rid of something big, and then there are times when you get rid of lots of something, kinda like Mizzium Mortars.

Slaughter Games If you really don't want to see a card hit the field, use this to make sure your opponent can't cast it or any other copy of it in their deck. Gets rid of Thragtusks before they become a 2-for-1 (or more) nuisance. Also good vs. [card]Sphinx's Revelation[/card]. It's best use is to steal away win conditions.
The Competition: Decks trying to steal our spotlight
dpaine88's analysis of the current metagame.

Naya Blitz/Mono Red
This is one of our toughest matchups as we don't race quite as well as other aggro decks, and our top end (Falkenrath) lines up poorly in defense. Ash Zealot, Boros
Reckoner, and Noble (for Blitz) are the key creatures to game 1 as they are amazing defenders. The maindeck burn can be used to kill difficult creatures such as Mayor of Avabruck and Hellrider/ Pyreheart Wolf. The other downside to this matchup is that we intend to 1-for-1 to start and stabilize the board to drop our big guys, but Burning-Tree Emmisary throws a wrench in that plan if your opponent can cast many creatures on one turn, but you might only be able to cast one spell a turn. Game 1 is not really in our favor, which explains the extreme aggro bias in the sideboard. In general, aside from zombies, we cannot realistically expect to race other aggro decks, although Spike Jester does certainly help there. The best plan of action in game 2/3 is the classic "Go Big" plan. Our 1-drops look pretty lackluster compared to Experiment One and Champion of the Parish and even Boros Elite, so we cannot compete here. We must transition into a midrangey control strategy. Our goal is to 1-for-1
them and keep the board clear until we can drop our bigger threats and win the game. Sideboard out your underpowered early beats for more removal and impactful creatures.

Bant Hexproof
This is a deck that got some real help from DGM in the form of Unflinching Courage, which is downright nasty, and Voice of Resurgence. Luckily, we are well positioned for VoR game 1 but it will give us some trouble if we don't have the corresponding Pillar of Flame. An Unflinching Courage on an Invisible Stalker can be really difficult hard to beat. Bant Hex is more consistent now and is quite strong. Logical consideration must be paid to including sacrifice effects into the sideboard, but it depends on your local meta.

Jund
Normally, I wouldn't feel very good in the matchup, especially with small sideboard options, but the full big package of flying baddies really
helps give our deck staying power opposed to the lower curve aggro decks that run out of gas and have low-impact topdecks turns 5+. If Jund uses their removal on your Cacklers and Zealots, Thundermaw will lead you to victory. Olivia is still a problem and must be stopped here. Bonfire is also really bad for us but mostly it is only effective if they miracle it. At least in game 1, be weary of holding too many cards back now with Sire of Insanity and Rakdos's Return. Also if they do get a board going, an overloaded Mizzium Mortars kills everything.

Esper Control
This deck is currently in decline, which is too bad because we are not that bad against control compared to some other aggro decks due to the high top end and Stonewright. The key to this matchup is to keep just 1-2 creatures on the board at a time and force their hand while keeping a strong array of follow-up cards. Stonewright is great here and is a must-answer or else you get incredible value of your lands while
holding onto your very valuable cards in hand. You don't get to draw another hand like they do, so your cards have to count. Aristocrat is your key to victory but do keep an eye open for Dissipate if they have been spending mana on your early guys. In the sideboarded games, just bring in Rakdos's Return, a game-winner against control. Keep your curve nice and low to get the pressure going early and often.

Reanimator
Sadly, I feel our deck is a bit weaker to Reanimator than your typical aggro deck that can kill faster than us. An Angel of Serenity can be back-breaking, and we rarely win by turn 4. Still have to kill quickly. Our flyers are really our key to victory here and getting your spells out asap to minimize the effects of Slime.

U/W/R
This really can go either way depending on the lists being run but this deck is losing popularity. Sometimes they just can 1-for-1 you every turn till t4 and then just Rev to get way ahead.[/spoiler:
3v6erh1r]

Matinee: Where we are now
The current iteration of the deck aims for more speed and more resiliency.

[deck]Post-GTC[/deck]

Sideboarding Plans
From Brother redthirst
There's not really one specific card you take out for any other card - the SB plan is a package deal:

Aggro: -4 Cackler, -4 Stromkirk, -2 Stonewright, -2 Jester; +4 Dreadbore, +3 Mortars, +2 Olivia, +2 Frostburn, +1 Reckoner

Midrange: -4 Cackler, -4 Stromkirk, -4 Pillar; +4
Dreadbore, +3 Mortars, +2 Olivia, +2 Rakdos's Return, +1 Reckoner

Control: -3 Reckoner, -4 Pillar; +4 Dreadbore, +3 Rakdos's Return

Reanimator: -4 Pillar, +4 Dreadbore

Against Aggro and Midrange, you take out your very low impact early game stuff and just play defense until you can start dropping superior threats that they can't deal with well. The bonus here is that your opponents will board in to deal with an Aggro deck, and you'll have a Midrange deck -- instead of both decks becoming better suited to take on the other, your deck becomes better and their deck becomes worse.

Against Control and Reanimator you do about the same thing -- remove spells that don't do much in those MUs for ones that do and race them.
Admin edit, 23th July 2013: windstrider passed the torch to Nuwen. Good luck to the new primer maintainer!
Last edited by Nuwen on Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:42 pm, edited 20 times in total.
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Postby redthirst » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:06 pm

I think if we want Dos Rakis to be viable in the current meta, then we need a real plan for playing defense against a deck packing:

Rampager
Rancor
Firefist Striker
Tempo gains from BTE

Because that's what's killing us. Figure out how to stem the bleeding from Gruul and Blitz and we can get somewhere.

Oh, and UWr playing BlOb is a bitch too, but, according to zem, it's not an issue in the wider meta like Blitz is so we can probs put that on the back burner.
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Postby Sasky » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:32 am

Does a hybrid between Gruul and Dos Rakis not work?
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Postby photodyer » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:38 am

Does a hybrid between Gruul and Dos Rakis not work?
Sure--it's called Jund Aggro and it's competitive in the meta. Regrettably the mana stretch makes Strangleroot Geist impractical, but it is still a pretty cool aggro concept.
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Postby Sasky » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:04 am

Nono I don't mean Jund aggro. Jund aggro uses like experiment ones and strangleroot geists which I do not like. I was thinking gruul with a black splash for aristocrats.
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Postby windstrider » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:40 am

I think if we want Dos Rakis to be viable in the current meta, then we need a real plan for playing defense against a deck packing:

Rampager
Rancor
Firefist Striker
Tempo gains from BTE

Because that's what's killing us. Figure out how to stem the bleeding from Gruul and Blitz and we can get somewhere.

Oh, and UWr playing BlOb is a bitch too, but, according to zem, it's not an issue in the wider meta like Blitz is so we can probs put that on the back burner.
Frostburn Weird looks like a good choice for a defensive card for those early rounds. I also like Thrill-kill Assassin if we're thinking more defensively. Unleashed she can attack into smaller creatures
without worry.

Stonewright + Vampire Nighthawk can swing things back to us as well.

But it's not just enough to play defense. We need a way to regain the offensive for a decisive counterpunch. They're gonna flood us with little guys otherwise. A Magmaquake for even just one point could even the odds nicely in our favor by killing lots of smaller creatures. Electrickery is an option, but 'quake scales if we need it to.
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Postby Kazekirimaru » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:58 am

This primer has honestly made me consider finally coming out of my RDW comfort zone.

So...pretty much just gotta Slaughter Games for Terminus or you're screwed, eh?
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Postby windstrider » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:22 am

This primer has honestly made me consider finally coming out of my RDW comfort zone.

So...pretty much just gotta Slaughter Games for Terminus or you're screwed, eh?
Forgot to add Terminus to the list. Good thing there's an edit button. :)

Duress and Appetite for Brains also work against Terminus. Terminus gets around our resilient creatures, which are one of the deck's main strengths. I haven't seen a lot of Terminus lately, though.
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:33 am

Burning-Tree Emissary This gal enables some very explosive starts. Usually paired with Lightning Mauler for 6 damage coming your way on turn 2. Ouch. And she can be used to activate Ghor-Clan Rampager's bloodrush ability. Recommended actions: Kill the Mauler with Electrickery, Tragic Slip or Ultimate Price and neutralize her early effectiveness if possible. Block with Frostburn Weird or Ash Zealot.

Go home windstrider. Your drunk.

This needs re-editing as BTE's mana can't activate bloodrush(mana leaves the pool as phase ends).

I'd add that Knight of infamy should get flagshiped as one of the best cards in this deck. Simply allowing you to attack into augur, azorius charm, restoration angel, etc. And it blocks cards out of naya blitz all day. It's probably the best card in the deck after FA.
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Postby zemanjaski » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:37 am

There seems to be a real over-reliance on Slaughter Games. It is only good if it is taking win-conditions.
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Postby windstrider » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:43 am

Burning-Tree Emissary This gal enables some very explosive starts. Usually paired with Lightning Mauler for 6 damage coming your way on turn 2. Ouch. And she can be used to activate Ghor-Clan Rampager's bloodrush ability. Recommended actions: Kill the Mauler with Electrickery, Tragic Slip or Ultimate Price and neutralize her early effectiveness if possible. Block with Frostburn Weird or Ash Zealot.

Go home windstrider. Your drunk.

This needs re-editing as BTE's mana can't activate bloodrush(mana leaves the pool as phase ends).

I'd add that Knight of infamy should get flagshiped as one of the best cards in this deck. Simply allowing you to attack into augur, azorius charm, restoration angel, etc. And it blocks cards out of naya blitz all
day. It's probably the best card in the deck after FA.
As of right now, I am a bit tipsy after a glass of wine for the evening.

Thank you for the correction to BTE. The offending sentence has been removed.

I also added more to KoI's section to highlight his importance.

Anything else?
There seems to be a real over-reliance on Slaughter Games. It is only good if it is taking win-conditions.
Just trying to point out that it can be used to get rid of a lot of problem cards. I'll amend those sections to de-emphasize using it.
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:46 am

So I definitely read the opening and was like...this sounds familiar. I feel like an idiot.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby photodyer » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:54 am

Oh LK...so modest as to not even recognize what you're credited for as yours...too much cold medicine!! ;-)

Dammit...where's my facepalm smilie?
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Postby windstrider » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:55 am

So I definitely read the opening and was like...this sounds familiar. I feel like an idiot.
I did credit you for originally writing that section. :) I'll change it around so that your name appears at the beginning of that paragraph.

Any other suggestions for changes or additions?

Edit:
[card]Yeva, Nature's Herald[/card] would allow BTE to use Rampager's bloodrush ability. :p
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:12 am

I know, I don't need credit for it. It was just eerie reading it and having forgot that I wrote that.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Postby windstrider » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:17 am

I know, I don't need credit for it. It was just eerie reading it and having forgot that I wrote that.
It's a good summary of the deck. If I don't give you credit, then I'm plagiarizing what you wrote. I can't do that.
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Postby windstrider » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:27 pm

What does anyone think about Gloom Surgeon in this deck? I didn't include him in the sections up top since I don't remember seeing anyone discussing him for Dos Rakis.
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Postby photodyer » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:51 pm

Dur on me...I just answered you over in the clan thread. You should read through Van Lunen's summary of the current meta here; I don't agree with everything he wrote, but it really is a good broad-brush of what we will see for the next few weeks.
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Postby windstrider » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:31 pm

Dur on me...I just answered you over in the clan thread. You should read through Van Lunen's summary of the current meta here; I don't agree with everything he wrote, but it really is a good broad-brush of what we will see for the next few weeks.
Seeing some play in Rakdos Aggro (read Zombies). The exile bit depends on how tolerant a deck is to losing cards. It would work similarly in Dos Rakis against Naya Blitz and GoST decks like Bant Delver because we have playsets
of aggro cards and no real combo dependence.

The regrettable reality right now is that Dos Rakis is really poorly positioned in the meta, period. It can take down Rites if it can hit the right removal and get in past Smiter and LS tokens to take them down before they stabilize, but once they start hitting big stuff we're done. Same with the midrange decks--if they hit a board wipe, we're sitting at lower mana than them with a deck full of relatively little creatures while they are dropping bombs. UWR has our number if they are running BlOb for sure, and even without it they have a good chance because they have enough burn to keep us from mounting a comeback from boardwipe. We can side in SG to take out their Revs and kill card advantage, but if they can stick Aurelia we're kinda done. The BTE-based decks are all the same issue--if they are on the play, we're dead unless we're running Bonfire and it hits after a BTE chain but before they send in the swarm. If they hit a BTE chain on their opener
otherwise, we are just too slow. After board, they are running VS, so again we get stuck trying to balance having removal to keep from getting dead with applying enough pressure to get them dead.

Bottom line, as much as I love the deck, Dos Rakis is just flat sucking wind in this meta...it's too slow for the uber-aggro mirrors, and can't scale enough to take on the big midrange strategies.
Nah, that's on me. I posted the question in both places.

The question is this: how do we apply pressure while staying alive and stabilizing ourselves?

Can we take inspiration from that black demon list that was posted in the clan thread? Lots of removal and hand disruption, and then using big creatures to finish?
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Postby redthirst » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:30 pm

Got these off the Sally thread - Santa Clara WMCQ - 259 players:

Jacob Dobbs (2nd)
[deck]Creatures: 29
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
2 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
2 Lightning Mauler
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Hellrider
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Thundermaw Hellkite

Spells: 8
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Lands: 23
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blood Crypt
15 Mountain

sideboard: 15
4 Duress
4 Appetite for Brains
4 Volcanic Strength
3 Skullcrack[/deck]

Ellis Edmunds (T4)
[deck]Creatures: 24
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Ash Zealot
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler

Spells: 13
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Devil’s Play

Lands: 23
14 Mountain
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine

sideboard: 15
4 Reckless Waif
4 Hellrider
2 Volcanic Strength
2 Flames of the
Firebrand
1 Traitorous Blood
1 Skullcrack
1 Electrickery[/deck]

What do these decks have in common? Right off the bat I see:
  • - A full set of: Cackler, Noble, Zealot, Reckoner, Pillar, and Spear.
    - A high(er) curve than what most of us have been playing.
    - 23 lands (I run between 23-24) which I think is probably the sweet spot.
    - A set of Hellriders in the 75
    - No KoI.
Anything else? What from these builds should we be applying to our own?

I think the obvious lessons are:
  • - We want to play the full set of: Cackler, Noble, Zealot, Reckoner, Pillar, and Spear.
    - We want a higher curve which includes Hellriders in our decks.
    - We should be playing approx. 23 lands.
    - We should - at least - consider dropping KoI from the list.
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Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
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Postby Midnight_v » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:13 pm

I've been thinking koi hasn't been good enough myself for a bit now. Still I'm not fond of the higher mana curve as a package shying away from rakhammer, I guess. .
I've been thinking... maybe (and don't throw anything) maybe Dos rakis can run the little engine that could and add Burning-tree emissary/ lightning mauler/ Gore-house chainwalker to the deck. All humans to feed the queen, and add that explosiveness that everyone else is benefiting from.
Mostly because once you drop koi from the decklist whats the main thing you're running black for? Aristocrat. I look at the list and they're not even running black removal anymore.
So basically, if Dos Rakis is become RDW and splashing "B" for falkenrath aristocrat then you might as well run the best Rdw's possible and then splash black.
After playing gruul for a bit, I suspect the best version of rdw will include "The emissary engine"
because going turn 2: drop two creatures is too much to ignore.

I state all that ONLY under the occurrence that KoI losses its maindeck position.
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Postby redthirst » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:31 pm

I've got no problem trying out a build that's basically RDW+FA - there's no reason why we should be any slower than Mono R Aggro so if it's viable, then we should be too.

The problem is that there's only so much room in the deck.

You def want 23 land (if you're playing FA) + a minimum of 8 burn/removal spells so that only leaves a maximum of 29 slots for creatures.

I think you want a minimum of 8 one drops and I, personally, prefer 2-3 Stonewright in addition to those. Then you want 4 Zealots, 3-4 Reckoner, 3-4 Hellrider and FA, and 2-4 Hellkites. That leaves like 4 slots at most, which is not enough for the BTE package.

To run BTE + 2 drop package you'd want to cut the majority of your 3+ drops, and, at that point, why not just play All-In Gruul/Red?

I think where we want to be is fast enough to steal games and punish durdly decks, have enough top-end to play a longer game against the grindy Midrange, and
still have enough control elements to switch gears against decks that are just plain faster than us.

I just don't quite know how to balance all those elements just right in 75 cards...
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Postby windstrider » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:17 pm

Thoughts regarding the above lists: These lists are lean and mean and work well without a black source on the field. I like the first list for its raw power. That thing can push damage through like there's no tomorrow. But I also like the removal package on the second list. I like the full sets of Appetite and Duress. Graveyard hate isn't needed if we can just exile the monster away.

Things I don't like: No Knights. I'm kinda attached to him as he does so much work. I realize that I am biased, though, and it would make sense for him to be dropped in certain matches. No Dreadbores or other spot removal for big nasties. The first list somewhat dodges that by including Appetite for Brains, but what happens if something big hits, and you can't kill it?

Suggestions: 2/2 split between Hellkites and Conscripts main. Thundermaw is a beast, but those threaten effects are sometimes more useful, especially with Hellrider. Plus,
steal and sac to Aristocrat equals pseudo-removal option. 4/4/4 Knight, Appetite, and Duress in the sideboard. Streamline the sideboard as well. Those cards are good vs. a lot of the current decks that give us fits. Maybe include Rakdos's Return or Devil's Play as a 1-of for scalable burn. Volcanic Strength as a 2-of to get our creatures out of burn range? More burn? Not sure for the last two slots. Bonfire of the Damned?

Pressure early. Hit hard later. I like it.
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Postby redthirst » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:23 pm

[deck]Creatures: 29
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
2 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
3 Lightning Mauler
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Hellrider
2 Thundermaw Hellkite

Spells: 8
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Lands: 23
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
15 Mountain[/deck]

No SB, but I'm imagining a package that allows switching out 1 drops for removal against Aggro/Midrange and Pillar, Reckoner for disruption vs Control and Combo.

Thoughts?
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Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

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Postby redthirst » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:37 pm

No real thought involved SB:

[deck]Sideboard: 15
1 Boros Reckoner
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dreadbore
3 Rakdos Return
1 Lightning Mauler
3 Rakdos Shred-Freak[/deck]

Aggro: -4 Rakdos Cackler, -4 Stromkirk Noble; +4 Mizzium Mortars, +3 Dreadbore, +1 Reckoner

Midrange: -4 Stromkirk Noble, -4 Pillar of Flame; +4 Mizzium Mortars, + 3 Dreadbore, +1 Reckoner

Control/Combo: -4 Pillar of Flame, -3 Boros Reckoner; +3 Rakdos Return, +1 Lightning Mauler, +3 Rakdos Shred-Freak

Alternatively, you can switch out Mauler/Freak for 4 Reckless Waif - I've not tested it lately, but it seems to get a lot of love.
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Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

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Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
I love the D...

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Postby windstrider » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:54 pm

[deck]Creatures: 29
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
2 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
3 Lightning Mauler
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
3 Hellrider
2 Thundermaw Hellkite

Spells: 8
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Lands: 23
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
15 Mountain[/deck]

No SB, but I'm imagining a package that allows switching out 1 drops for removal against Aggro/Midrange and Pillar, Reckoner for disruption vs Control and Combo.

Thoughts?
I really like the consistency of this list. At first, I questioned the Lightning Maulers, but then I realized that they served several different purposes besides giving haste to Reckoners. They're good for early damage,
and they also limit the usefulness of Azorious Charm. I'm not sure I like 3 of them, though, so maybe -1 Mauler, +1 Zealous Conscripts for late-game threaten effects?
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Postby redthirst » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:01 pm

Can't really defend the 3-of Mauler since I haven't actually tested that build, but I already hate having less than 8 2-drops... I really don't want to be running only 6.
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Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
I love the D...

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Postby redthirst » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:06 pm

Oh, and I think the Blood Witch will be taking the place of Hellrider in that build.
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Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
I love the D...

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Postby Pyreheart Bezerra » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:30 pm

Yeah, I am excited for the new Rakdos toy. Should be very good in build such as this. I DO like mauler in this build though. Looks very fast.

Midrange: -4 Stromkirk Noble, -4 Pillar of Flame; +4 Mizzium Mortars, + 3 Dreadbore, +1 Reckoner
I am sure you just threw together the quick SBing tips. But I was curious why for the midrange matchup you'd bring our 4 Nobles as opposed to 4 cacklers. Typo? or is there reasoning, if so I am interested. SBing is still very difficult for me to do well with any consistency.
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Postby redthirst » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:16 pm

They're both bad in that MU and are probably only getting in one hit at most. It hardly matters which you take out, really... in fact you should probably take the other out for Rakdos Return and Lightning Mauler anyway.

But yeah, that was some fast and dirty SBing. I'd probably want a couple of Olivia in there too.
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Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
I love the D...

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Postby Pyreheart Bezerra » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:20 pm

Fast and dirty, you know how I like it... ;)
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Postby redthirst » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:20 pm

Here's the list I've been playing around with:

[deck]Creatures: 29
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Lightning Mauler
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Thundermaw Hellkite

Spells: 8
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Lands: 23
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Cavern of Souls
11 Mountains

Sideboard: 15
4 Dreadbore
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Rakdos Return
2 Olivia Voldaren
1 Boros Reckoner
2 Open Slots[/deck]

General SB Plans:

Aggro: -4 Stromkirk Noble, -4 Rakdos Cackler, -2 Stonewright; +4 Dreadbore, +3 Mizzium Mortars, +2 Olivia Voldaren, +1 Boros Reckoner

Midrange: -4 Stromkirk Noble, -4 Rakdos Cackler, -4 Pillar of Flame; +4 Dreadbore, +3 Mizzium Mortars, +2 Olivia Voldaren, +1 Boros Reckoner, +2 Rakdos Return

Control: -3 Boros Reckoner, -4 Pillar of Flame; +4 Dreadbore, +3 Rakdos Return

UWr: -4 Stromkirk Noble, -2
Exava, -4 Pillar of Flame; +4 Dreadbore, +3 Rakdos Retun, +2 Olivia Voldaren, +1 Boros Reckoner

Reanimator: No real good strategy besides just racing them, but I might use the open slots for Rakdos Charm and simply go -2 Pillar; +2 Charm

General Thoughts:

-The little playing I've done has shown Exava to be much less explosive than Hellrider, but also much better by herself and less likely to get punked.

-Lightning Mauler is good, but fragile. It's odd to have traded out KoI for Mauler because Mauler is more explosive (though more fragile too) and have traded out Hellrider for Exava for the exact opposite reason. I think I need to go one way or the other... Mauler + Hellrider or KoI + Exava depending on "dat meta".

-I may need more :symb: sources - what I have is good enough for the MD, but the SB plays a lot of non-creature B spells so I think I might need a few Guildgates in there.
Maybe -2 Mountain; +2 Rakdos Guildgate

-No clue what I really need to fill the holes in the SB.
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Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
I love the D...

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Postby windstrider » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:34 pm

If you've got Exava, I think you'd want more unleash creatures to take advantage of her haste-granting ability. What about Gore-house Chainwalker or Thrill-kill Assassin? Pyreheart Wolf seems like a good sideboard choice here with Exava as well. It'd be a much more all-in strategy, but it could pay off big.

I noticed you went down to 3 Mizzium Mortars to add another Dreadbore. Why? I loves me some Dreadbore, but with 8 black sources, Mortars is easier to cast.

Sideboard: Traitorous Blood or [card]Devil's Play[/card] for the open slots?

I've got something similar that I'm working on. I won't be able to test it out this week, though. Dammit.
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Postby redthirst » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:43 pm

I have thought about trying out GHC with her - but the ability isn't that big of a deal so I don't feel like I need to build around it to make the card worth its slots.

Biggest reason I tested 4 Dreadbore and 3 Mortars? They were already in the deckbox so I didn't have to dig around for another Mortars. Besides that, Dreadbore is a good card against Aggro, Midrange, and Control while Mortars is only good againt the first two - so that's convenient for SBing.

I do think I need to up the number of B sources in the MD to better accommodate the SB though.
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Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
I love the D...

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Postby windstrider » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:35 pm

I have thought about trying out GHC with her - but the ability isn't that big of a deal so I don't feel like I need to build around it to make the card worth its slots.

Biggest reason I tested 4 Dreadbore and 3 Mortars? They were already in the deckbox so I didn't have to dig around for another Mortars. Besides that, Dreadbore is a good card against Aggro, Midrange, and Control while Mortars is only good againt the first two - so that's convenient for SBing.

I do think I need to up the number of B sources in the MD to better accommodate the SB though.
Ok, makes sense.

I like the reasoning behind Dreadbore vs. Mortars. I'll have to try that out.

+2 Guildgates would give 10 sources. That should be enough for more black cards.
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Postby redthirst » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:41 pm

+2 Guildgates would give 10 sources. That should be enough for more black cards.
Cool. That's what I was thinking as well.
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Postby redthirst » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:45 pm

Here's the list I've been playing around with:

[deck]Creatures: 29
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Lightning Mauler
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Thundermaw Hellkite

Spells: 8
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear

Lands: 23
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Cavern of Souls
11 Mountains

Sideboard: 15
4 Dreadbore
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Rakdos Return
2 Olivia Voldaren
1 Boros Reckoner
2 Open Slots[/deck]
Did some testing yesterday with this list but with 2 Rakdos Guildgate over 2 Mountains and 2 Rakdos Charm in the SB - it's strong. Exava was pretty good - she came down and just dominated a lot of board states that Hellrider wouldn't.
Also, I'm a pretty big fan of Maulers - they help make the early game more explosive and the deck, in general, less vulnerable to tempo plays.

I think I was wrong about not wanting to play Mauler and Exava in the same deck because extremely explosive starts into very resilient late-game threats seems like right where I want to be.

Also, I did a lot of testing against UWr and the new list just dominates them.
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Originally posted by Dechs Kaison on MTGS
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

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Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
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Postby zemanjaski » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:08 am

Yeah, Exava seems very good. Unlike the other 4s, which are conditionally powerful (ie: they both wants buddies to enable their abilities), Exava is just a beating by herself. 4 power with first strike beats...everything in the current format. I really favour cards that are always good, and she is. Look forward to playing with her more.

I don't understand how Dos Rakis isn't favoured against UWR. You have all the right tools to beat both versions of the deck. If you're seeing more UWx decks than aggro in your format, Dos Rakis should be a really good choice.
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Postby photodyer » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:56 am

I don't understand how Dos Rakis isn't favoured against UWR. You have all the right tools to beat both versions of the deck. If you're seeing more UWx decks than aggro in your format, Dos Rakis should be a really good choice.
I think things are swinging back to where we're better positioned. The dominance of Reanimator has made UWr have to focus more slots on GY hate and the like, which means that BlOb is a rarity and they are also limited as to how many slots they can dedicate to burn. Couple that with the move to a more hasty list and it makes sense that UWr would again be a decent MU. Running Mauler really kills the impact of Azorius Charm...we're can be more aggressive with one-drops attacking in if Mauler is helping to mitigate the tempo
loss of having them go back atop our library.

FWIW, I think Conscripts a/o the 3cmc threatens are still very strong in the deck and should be somewhere in the 75.
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Postby RedNihilist » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:09 am

Is sorcery-speed Dreadbore that good?
Ultimate Price is conditional, Victim of Night too mana intensive and Death Wind just stupid, but (correct me if I'm wrong) maybe Tragic Slip could find its place in here - especially if Lavinia atcually sees play.


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