[Variant] All-In Mono Red

[zemanjaski]

/this is going to be a workspace area for a variant I want to work on.

Introduction
- why this deck?
- why now?

Core Concepts and Strategy
- the perfect curve
- the perfect mana base
- redundancy
- little synergies, big victories

[deck]All In Red v1.0[/deck]

Card Discussion
Core
- ash zealot
- gore-house chainwalker
- lightning mauler
- rakdos cackler
- stormkirk noble
- searing spear

Testing
- boros reckoner
- burning tree emissary
- firefist striker
- legion loyalist
- dynacharge

Potential
-
hellrider
- brimstone volley
- pillar of flame

Comments
- land count discussion

Matchup Guide and Notes
- junk reanimator
- uwr variants
- esper control
- aristocrats
- gruul Aggro
- jund midrange
- naya aggro

Discussion Point - Do you bother playing around Supreme Verdict?
- theoretical examination
- mathematical examination

Links
http://www.twitch.tv/zemanjaski/videos

[Helios]

Having actually played with Legion Loyalist, I'd cut it down to 3. I was pretty content with 2, though he was basically serving the function of Pyreheart Wolf. Since you don't have her in here, 4 might actually work. I'm just not convinced that you want to draw multiples.

[zemanjaski]

I am not sure either, but I have a sneaking suspicion I need the card as a hasty battalion enabler ~ with so many creatures, I can be a little more relaxed about throwing away a card here and there (it is effectively a 1 mana sorcery in many board states anyway) to give first strike and trample to everyone else. It may very well be that I need to draw them in multiples to ensure the trigger etc? Don't know! Something to test

[Calamity]

I'll try playing a list similar to this at FNM this Friday... probably with less legion loyalists and more...something. Not sure yet. I only have two copies of him atm and probably won't get two more by friday.

[zemanjaski]

Cool, let me know how it goes. Any notes on the cards under 'testing' would be fantastic, as well as feedback on the land count (I think I have it right, but there is no substitute for experience).

[Christen]

I think we could go as low as 18 (or 17 if you're pushing it) in our current curve. We are running only Boros Reckoner and overload Dynacharge as 3cmc.

God forbid I say this, but maybe maindeck Madcap Skills could be worth testing.

[Pyreheart Bezerra]

Would it be possible to drop the GHC for Flinthoof, with the addition of shocks and checks. Or is GHC doing the job no better than the boar in this situation? I ask because I made a similar 2-drops.dec but I went the gruul route, however I did not use or even consider dynacharge just rampager. In hindsight dynacharge seems a much better fit.

[zemanjaski]

@ Pyreheart: No it isn't possible. The express concept of the deck is avoiding the mana problems that plague Gruul Aggro and Naya Blitz. While Flinthoof is a more powerful card than GHC, the introduction of the shocks and checks significantly weaken the manabase. This deck avoids those issues entirely. FWIW, you mostly just want a 3 power body and GHC does that, although you do have significant downside in never been able to haste of course.

@ Christen: worth experimenting with, although having played with the 18 land versions I was always a little uncomfortable. It is probably exactly the same as when I was playing 24 lands in Mono Red last season but everyone else was playing 23 ~ I REALLY like to hit my land drops and I suppose I lean on my capacity to play through flood to compensate for the slight increase in occasions when it happens. It is also worth noting that compared to the 18 land Gruul decks, the huge number
of 2 and 1 drops means that you want to hit 3 mana slightly more often so you can start casting 2 spells in one turn sooner (also important for battalion).

[zemanjaski]

I think the sideboard will look something like:

4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Volcanic Strength
3 Traitorous Blood

With the idea of just doing straight exchanges where appropiate (eg: take out Cackler in Aggro mirrors for Pillar; take out Reckoner against Reanimator for Traitorous Blood etc).

[Speedbump]

19 Mountain is the lowest that you'd want to go to, mainly because of needing to cast all the critical 2-costing spells. You have to give up on things like Hellrider if you go to that many lands though. You could in theory be sitting at 20 Mountain, cutting 1 Firefist Striker for the sideboard. Even then, the only time I want to be sitting at 20 lands is when I'm playing Modern/Legacy Red. I also think Boros Reckoner is a little bit greedy on a land-light build. You could get away with it in the board if the Aggro match-up turns out to be horrible. Better off either trying to maximize T3/T4 wins with either Dynacharge, or just having more shit on the board.

I think Pillar of Flame is absolutely necessary
as well. 3 Main/1 Board, so you can kill the manadorks that Junk throws out, as well as cards like Ash Zealot/Burning-Tree Emissary. If you're worried about being stonewalled, maybe Mugging could be something to test as well.

Mono-Red has very little options playing around Supreme Verdict, especially Hellrider-less versions. You have to go balls to the walls, while keeping 1-2 creatures to ensure Supreme Verdict doesn't fuck up your day.

EDIT: Traitorous Blood should be Mark of Mutiny, unless you have more land than 19.

[zemanjaski]

I don't see what 19+ land has to do with the Traitorous Blood vs Mark of Mutiny discussion?

Re: Pillar, it ranges from just good to really bad; I would rather have it in the board. I think all the problem scenarios you envision can be played around with the inherent synergies already in the maindeck.

Reckoner might be the worst card in the maindeck. It is certainly very slow; but I think being able to cast it is one of the main reasons to play this variant, as opposed to say, Naya Blitz. It certainly makes a big difference in that matchup and is not horrid elsewhere. The metagame would determine whether or not it is maindeckable (I would still want 4 in the 75).

[LP, of the Fires]

With Zero Testing, I'm just gonna say a bunch of stuff.

If ever you go up to 20 lands for whatever reason, I'd play 2 hellriders. Just saying.

0 Stonewright HAS to be wrong.

I'd like to see more pump affects ala dynacharge as game ending reach.

It's actually very possible boros reckoner isn't good in this deck. The majority of the time, you're probably going to prefer playing multiple guys, probably hasty over a 3/3. I could even see a case for pyreheart wolf>Reckoner. Or, I'm probably just being an idiot. I think you'd rather sacrifice the little power you have for pure speed though.

Vexing Devil. I mean more burn. Spear is nice. I'd like a couple more spells for reach. I don't think clearing blockers is necessary with infinite battalion guys that affectively do that anyways, but having Brimstone volley as like, more versatile dynacharges(did I really compare those spells?) seems like a net plus.

[Speedbump]

I don't see what 19+ land has to do with the Traitorous Blood vs Mark of Mutiny discussion?

Re: Pillar, it ranges from just good to really bad; I would rather have it in the board. I think all the problem scenarios you envision can be played around with the inherent synergies already in the maindeck.

Reckoner might be the worst card in the maindeck. It is certainly very slow; but I think being able to cast it is one of the main reasons to play this variant, as opposed to say, Naya Blitz. It certainly makes a big difference in that matchup and is not horrid elsewhere. The metagame would determine whether or not it is maindeckable (I would still want 4 in the 75).

I'm a fuckwit. I thought it costed 4. D

Boros Reckoner is solid sideboard material, although it depends on how you want to sideboard.

[zemanjaski]

With Zero Testing, I'm just gonna say a bunch of stuff.

If ever you go up to 20 lands for whatever reason, I'd play 2 hellriders. Just saying.

0 Stonewright HAS to be wrong.

I'd like to see more pump affects ala dynacharge as game ending reach.

It's actually very possible boros reckoner isn't good in this deck. The majority of the time, you're probably going to prefer playing multiple guys, probably hasty over a 3/3. I could even see a case for pyreheart wolf>Reckoner. Or, I'm probably just being an idiot. I think you'd rather sacrifice the little power you have for pure speed though.

Vexing Devil. I mean more burn. Spear is nice. I'd like a couple more spells for reach. I don't think clearing blockers is necessary with
infinite battalion guys that affectively do that anyways, but having Brimstone volley as like, more versatile dynacharges(did I really compare those spells?) seems like a net plus.

It might be that the deck wants 2-3 Brimstone Volley in place of pump / Reckoner. I haven't had any experience with Stonewright and so few land ~ I imagine that you draw so much action, even inf your bad draws, that you can't use him effectively, but I will try to keep notes on how often he would have been good, at least for the sake of discussion.

[Speedbump]

With Zero Testing, I'm just gonna say a bunch of stuff.

If ever you go up to 20 lands for whatever reason, I'd play 2 hellriders. Just saying.

0 Stonewright HAS to be wrong.

I'd like to see more pump affects ala dynacharge as game ending reach.

It's actually very possible boros reckoner isn't good in this deck. The majority of the time, you're probably going to prefer playing multiple guys, probably hasty over a 3/3. I could even see a case for pyreheart wolf>Reckoner. Or, I'm probably just being an idiot. I think you'd rather sacrifice the little power you
have for pure speed though.

Vexing Devil. I mean more burn. Spear is nice. I'd like a couple more spells for reach. I don't think clearing blockers is necessary with infinite battalion guys that affectively do that anyways, but having Brimstone volley as like, more versatile dynacharges(did I really compare those spells?) seems like a net plus.

It might be that the deck wants 2-3 Brimstone Volley in place of pump / Reckoner. I haven't had any experience with Stonewright and so few land ~ I imagine that you draw so much action, even inf your bad draws, that you can't use him effectively, but I will try to keep notes on how often he would have been good, at least for the sake of discussion.

I think I'm being rather greedy with Stonewright on 22 land. Most of the time though, it's much more fun to force the Wrath with 2 creatures on board.

Also, I think Rw is just strictly better than Mono-Red. Being able to
bait a Supreme Verdict with Boros Charm feels so clutch every time I do it.

[zemanjaski]

I like Stonewright with 21+ red sources.

I don't think 'strictly better' means what you think it means

[Valdarith]

Yeah, I don't know how I feel about Stonewright on a 19-land build. Seems counterproductive, and I'm a huge Stonewright proponent. Maybe at 20 I'd throw in a couple.

I agree that Reckoner may not be where this deck wants to be, especially with all the removal being played to work around him now. Worth testing though.

EDIT: I also love that someone finally gets it with Burning-Tree Emissary in a mono red deck. You've maximized the number of (1)R drops to make the green mana produced relevant. Go you!

[Speedbump]

I like Stonewright with 21+ red sources.

I don't think 'strictly better' means what you think it means

I should elaborate better. I believe that with a lot of opponents going to run Supreme Verdict, the ability to still have a board presence afterwards makes the Rw version much more favourable in these match-ups over the Mono-Red version. I do think that the Mono-Red is better situated against Reanimator, because it can race before Thragtusk becomes a factor. I believe that with my specific Rw build (4 Pillar of Flame + 4 [card]Searing Spear[/card:
rpjedqzq]), the Aggro match-up pre-board is slightly more favourable as well.

This is the best I can do sans caffeine.

EDIT: My main-deck suggestion:

[deck]All In Red v1.0[/deck]
Maindeck could also go -1 Dynacharge, +1 Stonewright if you feel it is more suitable.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, I don't know how I feel about Stonewright on a 19-land build. Seems counterproductive, and I'm a huge Stonewright proponent. Maybe at 20 I'd throw in a couple.

I agree that Reckoner may not be where this deck wants to be, especially with all the removal being played to work around him now. Worth testing though.

EDIT: I also love that someone finally gets it with Burning-Tree Emissary in a mono red deck. You've maximized the number of (1)R drops to make the green mana produced relevant. Go you!

Its crazy that I know more about red deck construction than the scrubs on MTGS, I know The card is actually very good in this
deck, both for the increase in velocity that it offers and for the extra body when enabling battalion.

[Speedbump]

Yeah, I don't know how I feel about Stonewright on a 19-land build. Seems counterproductive, and I'm a huge Stonewright proponent. Maybe at 20 I'd throw in a couple.

I agree that Reckoner may not be where this deck wants to be, especially with all the removal being played to work around him now. Worth testing though.

EDIT: I also love that someone finally gets it with Burning-Tree Emissary in a mono red deck. You've maximized the number of (1)R drops to make the green mana produced relevant. Go you!

Its crazy that I know more about red deck construction than
the scrubs on MTGS, I know The card is actually very good in this deck, both for the increase in velocity that it offers and for the extra body when enabling battalion.

You know much more than me as well, I do admit. I do like Burning-Tree Emissary, but it is one card that I can't run due to being in Rw.

If you need someone who's self-purportedly slightly competent to test the Aggro mirror, I can do so for a little bit tonight/tomorrow night.

[zemanjaski]

Sweet, would love to hear whatever you come up with

Re: Boros, how is the mana working out? I think I would want to mostly keep the all-red creature base (because I think hitting white on 2 will be too much to ask, though I would love Wojek Halberdiers), but splashing for 2-3 Boros Charm seems perfect; both as protection against the aforementioned sweepers, but also as an easily topdecked finisher. What does you mana base look like? 10 Mountain + 8 duals + 1 plains?

[LP, of the Fires]

I was thinking:

[deck]
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
3 Legion Loyalist
2 Stonewright
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Firefist Striker
4 Ash Zealous
4 Burning Tree Emissary

2 Dynacharge
2 Brimstone Volley
4 Searing Spear

19 Mountain[/deck]

You still got 33 creatures(we've come so far), that streamlined curve, and every opening hand containing at least a single 1-drop. I also think if you don't have spare mana for stonewright, you're probably winning, while you retain the ability to have your 1-6 drop in games where you flood. Lastly, it's not like you don't mind playing him last.

[zemanjaski]

That looks solid to me. I think a sub-theme that has become clear to me, at least conceptually, is that the deck's viability significantly hinges on making BTE as good as possible, which I think right now, we're doing.

Relegating Reckoner to the board takes away a lot of mana pressures and increase the range of keepable hands (which is good). Volley is like a hasted 3 drop anyway, especially in this deck; when you're going to be aggressively trading card-advantage for damage.

[zemanjaski]

And just to clarify LK ~ you're in the 'reckoner is too slow for this deck' camp?

I am leaning towards agreeing. Post board, we could always side in 4 Reckoner + 1 mountain + a small amount of extra removal (in exchange for cards like Cackler and Dynacharge) to be a bit more controlling in the aggro mirror.

[LP, of the Fires]

Basically, yes. I want to beat reanimator and jund first and foremost and reckoner is the worst card against those decks. In aggro mirrors, we have more natural card advantage and removal in additon to various forms of psuedo evasion so simply boarding in a hoser(reckoner) seems good enough to me.

The concept of this deck really is to be the perfect red deck, ergo, you do the same mediocre thing every game but you do it twice as fast as the next guy with maxiumum efficiency.

We aren't reinventing the wheel tactically. We're beating people with superior deck construction and laser like focus.

[zemanjaski]

Not to mention significantly more practice in turning guys sideways...who knows, under enough pressure they may just not be able to manage it, but for us career red mages, it is just our nature.

Any advantage is a good advantage.

[Speedbump]

Sweet, would love to hear whatever you come up with

Re: Boros, how is the mana working out? I think I would want to mostly keep the all-red creature base (because I think hitting white on 2 will be too much to ask, though I would love Wojek Halberdiers), but splashing for 2-3 Boros Charm seems perfect; both as protection against the aforementioned sweepers, but also as an easily topdecked finisher. What does you mana base look like? 10 Mountain + 8 duals + 1 plains?

My decklist is yet another variant of Red. It's more closer to the RDW of yesteryear, but splashing white for Boros Charm main and [card]Thalia,
Guardian of Thraben[/card] side. I'll post it there once I figure out the exact side I want to run. I'm still tossing up between running Oblivion Ring/Thunderbolt/Mark of Mutiny/Mizzium Mortars/any other card I've missed, as well as the split of each.

For the All-in variant, if you're only running 2 or 3 Boros Charm, you can get away with 10-12 Mountain, 4 Sacred Foundry and 4 Clifftop Retreat. I'm testing whether or not I need to add 1 Boros Guildgate to that base. I think that this is more useful a discussion in the Rw Thread though.

IMO, you can't afford to run non-red sources if you're playing 4 Ash Zealot and 4 Burning-Tree Emissary, more so
if you're on the 19-21 land plan.

EDIT: Put me in the 'Boros Reckoner is too slow' camp as well.

[zemanjaski]

Legion Loyalist + Dynacharge is very satisfying.

[Alex]

Legion Loyalist + Dynacharge is very satisfying.

This is also how I feel about Dynacharge + Goblin Bushwhacker in pauper, there HAS to be something to this card, right?

[zemanjaski]

At the very least, been quasi-rogue = lots of blowouts and easy wins. Even if they know you have it and play accordingly, that means that they have to give you a LOT of respect which can be a good thing as well.

[LP, of the Fires]

More importantly, the look on there face when they die to dynacharge and realize your deck has to be for real because your deep in the tourney.

The people tryna black ball me forgot about 2 things; my black balls.

[zemanjaski]

Even funnier is that they would have to then ask "how many other times have you done this today?"

[zemanjaski]

In MJ's voice "Sir, What is your life total? Sir? Sir, I asked you a question! What is your life total?"

Receives response.

"Oh, in that case...dead"

[LP, of the Fires]

Is he just dead? I think he's at dead.

Yeah, now I want to play tournament magic and slay people with mountains. This deck actually looks like the nut, conceptually at least. We're faster then everything, we have zero consistency issues, it's only a matter of if the powerlevel is just high enough to win close games.

Something I'm wondering about potential boarding strategies: Do we even board pillar on the play? Against other red decks sure, but against naya, I don't think they have any reasonable way of beating decks faster then them. I'm guessing that we do, but it's something that is at least interesting enough to discuss.

Also, what about bringing in 2 hellriders and a land versus control? Probably way to greedy. Still, it would be funny to just drop a hellrider after they 5-for-1 you with verdict and kill them with angry devil man.

[Helios]

As stated in the main thread, I'm up for taking this to FNM if ya'll are sure that it is at least decent; i.e., a modicum of playtesting as proof-of-concept:)

My thoughts on why this deck is good: When I played Dos Rakis and later Sligh, my experience was that the games I won were the ones where I had the nut draw of 1-drops, or a really good curve. This deck seems to drastically increase the odds of a nut draw; you trade the late-game flexibility for a deck that has high odds of a "nut draw". I know I'm roostering, but is that what's going on here? To paraphrase AF, if I'm being an idiot, just tell me.

As a practitioner of a style of swordsmanship which whose draw was designed to be just slightly faster than the other major style's draw, these appeals to me on a visceral level. I'm (all) in.

[LP, of the Fires]

You basically have the right of it. We want a deck that nut draws every game, doesn't flood, and doesn't die to it's own manabase. Basically Naya blitz with perfect mana, a lower curve, and more reach.

We trade size and power(boros elite, Mayor of Avabruck, 3 colors) for speed and psudeo-evasion(1 color, legion loyalist, Firefist Striker). Plus, haven't you ever wanted to dynacharge someone for lethal?

[Helios]

That's what makes this strategy seem so viable...it's almost too good to be true. Must playtest...if only I didn't spend 12 hours at work/school/training tomorrow. And I'm so effin sleepy, so I'm out for tonight.

I played Izzet to 3rd place at the 30-something man RTR pre that I attended (my only loss being to the guy who won, when like an idiot I forgot to SB for our second game). I HAVE Dynacharged for lethal It feels oh so good.

[Alex]

At the very least, been quasi-rogue = lots of blowouts and easy wins.

This is true with my deck a lot of the time. They're always like 120% shocked when I snap down Restoration Angel.

[RedNihilist]

I'm trying to set my mind on these ideas (I swear I thought you were kidding when I first saw the list - I wouldn't have joked about the VD otherwise), THEN I'd like to ask some questions.
I want to try out things by myself before that, though.

[Christen]

Tested with Firefist Striker in gruul. He is nuts when coming off from BTE. Multiples specially hurt. Take note we are still vulnerable to Restoration Angels though.