MDU's Rx Builds

[dauntless268]

Village Messenger is decent vs Wr Humans, Ramp, Midrange, Tempo, Mill and Control - its sometimes ok vs Coco and Token (but mostly trash), I still like it as 1-drop 9-12 but it depends on your meta I guess (if your seeing lots of Coco, Midrange and Token you might be better of with Whisperer or Chandra).

Agree, Sir. After a bit of testing, I'm getting more and more convinced of Whisperer more and more and hence...

[deck=Whispy's Red Dragons]
Creatures 24
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Lightning Berserker
4 Dragon Whisperer
4 Ire Shaman
4 Thunderbreak Regent

Spells 13
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Temper
4 Draconic Roar
2 Lightning Axe

Lands 22
22 Mountain

Sideboard 15
4 Fiery Impulse
2 Rending Volley
2 Roast
2 Twin Bolt
3 Goldnight Castigator
1 Act of Treason
1 Goblin Dark-Dweller
[/deck]

-------------
EDIT: Lightning Axe was originally an experiment as a 1-of all purpose MD removal for pesky things like Angel + Seer. it was surprisingly good in testing, so a second got added for the 23rd land

[stuffydollfan]

Small update on my development for the rakdos deck,

I tried going for the heavier dragon splash but it was an utter mess. It was a small modification to the deck list i had last posted but I guess it made enough of a difference for me to notice.

[deck]2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Foreboding Ruins
12 Mountains
4 Smoldering Marsh
3 Swamp

4 Insolent Neonate
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan

3 Tormenting Voice
4 Draconic Roar
2 Read the Bones
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Temper
[/deck]
I removed all the Alms and Olivia from the deck, I also believe I removed 1 Tormenting Voice since the deck has fewer madness cards. Then I added 2 dragon lands to take the land count to 25, 4 Draconic Roar, and 2 dragons.

While I didn't play test all that much, I tested enough for me to see that the deck was no good. The deck slows down quite a bit without Alms providing support and having 25 lands. I did feel a little better using Draconic Roar so that was nice at least. In the end it just didn't have enough fire power in the early game for our dragons to finish it by the time they came out.

The next step if we want to continue down this path is to fully change this to a proper midrange deck. Which would mean going away from the madness route and running more creatures in the early slots. But before doing that I'm going to try lowering the curve and running a few more 1 drops like previously suggested.

[dauntless268]

For whatever it's worth, here's my current Grixis Dragons List

[deck]
Creatures 20
4 Dimensional Infiltrator
4 Rattlechains
3 Olivia, Mobilized for War
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Goblin Dark Dwellers
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan
1 Dragonlord Silumgar

Spells 14
4 Draconic Roar
3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Read the Bones
2 Ultimate Price
2 Kolaghan's Command

Lands 26
4 Mountains
3 Island
3 Swamp
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Smoldering Marsh
2 Sunken Hollow
4 Shivan Reef
3 Wandering Fumarole

Sideboard 15
2 Duress
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Fiery Impulse
1 Ultimate Price
1 Rending Volley
4 Radiant Flames
1 Ob-Nixilis, Reignited
2 Chandra Flamecaller
[/deck]

This is the best I could come up with in terms of remaining reasonably aggressive against decks like GW Tokens and Control/Ramp, while being able to switch into a full on control deck if necessary vs. WR Aggro, Aristocrats and Bant Humans (note that vs. WR Humans you should leave the blue Creatures in as early Blockers (-3 Firecraft -4 Stormbreath -3 Olivia -1 Dragonloard Kolaghan -1 Read the Bones +4 Radiant Flames + 2 Fiery Impulse +1 Rending Volley +1 Ultimate Price +1 Ob-Nixilis +2 Chandra), while vs. Crats and Bant Humans, I would side them out (-4 Rattlechains, -4 Infiltrator -3 Olivia -1 Exquisite Firecraft +4 Radiant Flames +2 Fiery Impulse +1 Ultimate Price +1 Ob-Nixilis +2 Chandra +2 Transgress the Mind)

[stuffydollfan]

Small update.

I haven't take the deck to any actual events yet but instead been doing more play testing in the tournament room.
Been playing around with a couple of modifications to the deck but so far i haven't noticed anything way different with the deck.

Currently I'm testing the going small approach and it's been good. I wouldn't say better but just different.

The biggest revelation so far is that this deck no matter what version of it i try is really weak to white weenie. Such a terrible match up for red in general i would think. Maybe the R/U version might have better luck but i cant see other versions competing. That deck is just way too stupid synergistic and strong against this strategy. Even with a tailor made sideboard white weenie feels like it's too strong. Other match ups that feel hard are W/B/x and G/R ramp, but those decks at least feel like there's a chance. CC decks and G/B feel a bit more on our side but can still lose if not careful.

[magicdownunder]

Wx is quite rough (even for the MonoR builds) I tend to lose R1 and (try to) win R2 + R3 - you can fix this MU by adding more cheap removals MD though this will weaken the other MU.

[dauntless268]

Agree with MDU. G1 is pretty difficult. Key to the MU is to hold your Abbots (and Shamans if you have them) as long as possible, and aggressively trade your creatures to limit their synergies. Post SB, keep a few creatures that can win the game on their own, like Whispering Dragon or even Lightning Berserker. Because we are the control deck in this MU, I side out the Firecrafts in favor of quicker removals.

Played 2 LE to a 4-1 and a 3-2 with the above MonoR list. Oddly losing to Grixis Control twice in the second league. Kologhan's Command is a pretty backbreaking spell against this deck. I'm getting more comfortable with the GW and BG matchup (I lost to BG in the first league mainly due to very unmotivated play, otherwise it would have been 5-0

MDU, what do you think of the Mono Red Midrange List of the guy on MtGS?

[magicdownunder]

I think the MonoR Midrange list is very inconsistency and will almost always lose to control and ramp, the deck creator mentions that he gets around this by dealing 5-12 damage with Lightning Berserker then finishing the game with burns but honestly if those decks kept hands which allow you to connect that many times then you would have most likely win with anything.

My main concern with MonoR midrange is that while its true sometime the deck is going to feel like a well oiled machine (kinda like that Rb list I built) but if you really sit down and farm tons of games you will notice that Red doesn't mull or draw well and with so many top-heavy cards 3cc+ your going to suffer a lot.

[stuffydollfan]

@ MDU: If this deck gets the nut draw against us the its pretty much over no matter what we do. My sideboard is good in hate with Avacyn's Judgement and Self Inflicted Wound the help out. Though Avacyn's Judgement becomes useless after a few turns. I also have few Lightning Axe in the side to help out.

@ dauntless: I been playing the Rakdos version and still haven't tested out both shaman or abbots yet. I suppose those cards do give us a fighting chance against WW but those guys can go super aggressive almost all match up long. Yeah i slowly realized that we are the control against them since they were out racing most my decks no matter what i did.

Anyways here is the latest version on the Rakdos version

[deck]4 Foreboding Ruins
11 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
3 Swamp

4 Insolent Neonate
4 Village Messenger
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Dragon Whisperer
4 Heir of Falkenrath
3 Chandra, Fire of Kaledesh
2 Olivia, Mobilized for War
4 Thunderbreak Regent

3 Draconic Roar
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Temper[/deck]


In order to go with the smaller creature list I had to drop all copies of Alms, Bloodseeker, and Tormenting Voice since the synergy is no longer there and those cards become less effective. At this point I might even ask why go black? Well Heir of Falkenrath is still great at giving us a creature that can go all the way by itself and she helps with lowering the cost of Fiery Temper which is nice. Olivia is good but she is easily dealt with. Black also gives us access to other cheap removal like Ultimate Price which hits mostly all the important stuff. On the side board both Virulent Plague and Self-Inflicted Wound are great to have for any token or any g/w decks.

So far been liking this latest version but feels like it still needs more work. I would like to test for abbot and shaman next but I have been liking Dragon Whisperer. Though Abbot might be a better choice. The 10 one drops are all decent and having that many almost ensures we get a one drop on turn one. At this moment i'm testing out Chandra just to see how she is and so far I'm liking her. With most of our curve being lowered, she's not that hard to flip. I guess if I were to try abbot and or shaman they would slot in in the Zurgo, Dragon Whisperer, or Chandra spot. Went with the decision of going with 22 lands because of greed and because the deck has a lower curve. And finally stayed with the dragon for obvious reasons.

[dauntless268]

@ Stuffydolphan

Looking at your list, I wonder if with all those modifications, you may have arrived at a version that is essentially a worse-off mono red build. It get it that Heir is fantastic when the combo with Temper comes together BUT

- with only 11 Black sources, you can't consistently cast Heir on T2 (you would need at least 13 dfor that) and with only 4 Madness outlets, you risk having card disadvantage for only a marginally ahead of the curve creature.

- With 3 Swamps, you don't get to play Lightning Berserker which is probably the best red card vs control and you risk not being able to play Dragon Whisperer on curve.

You gain Olivia, which is a good card, but again not so incredibly powerful that it's worth the splash. If you sub Heir with Abbot and Olivia with Berserker and go Mono Red, is the deck so much worse? But it's certainly much more consistent!

One important lesson to learn in Magic is that you shouldn't try to build a deck that tries to do what other decks do better. If you want a consistent aggro deck, try to go R or RG with a light green splash. If you want consistent t2 fliers, go RU. If you want to go RB, try to maximize on "unfairness aspect" of the madness cards (i.e. play Alms, Youth, Heir, Neonate, Temper and possibly even Bloodseeker in ONE Deck, and try eg to add a playset of Read the Bones to keep the synergies flowing). All of these builds are OK I believe even though they may clearly differ in effectiveness depending on how good the cards are that we have available to execute the underlying strategy

Hope you find this advice useful and take it with a pinch of salt - I'm myself not a very strong player, so I might be all wrong, of course

[stuffydollfan]

Oh yeah thats what i was alluding to on my last post. If I take the R/b deck and go the small route, it's probably better to go on mono red and take full advantage of what the color has to offer. I was just trying to justify sticking to black because of my bias towards the color.

With the last build of my R/B deck i was trying to find a good balance of madness cards and cheap creatures but the madness cards dont really play well without good support. I will admit that I am not good at deck building and I might have missed something in my last few builds to glue everything together into the ultimate monster. I did find the most success with the build that uses a play set of Torments and some RtB for the extra card draw you were talking about. Being able to draw into gas is what wins it games. The only other creature I want to try out is Abbot. And he will be most likely taking the space of the Bloodseeker slot since that is the easiest place to make the switch.

After so much trial and error I think that is where the deck wants to be. Which will be good enough for me to take into MTGO tournaments soon. Now whether it can win said tournaments is another question in itself

[dauntless268]

I think the MonoR Midrange list is very inconsistency and will almost always lose to control and ramp, the deck creator mentions that he gets around this by dealing 5-12 damage with Lightning Berserker then finishing the game with burns but honestly if those decks kept hands which allow you to connect that many times then you would have most likely win with anything.

My main concern with MonoR midrange is that while its true sometime the deck is going to feel like a well oiled machine (kinda like that Rb list I built) but if you really sit down and farm tons of games you will notice that Red doesn't mull or draw well and with so many top-heavy cards 3cc+ your going to suffer a lot.

Good point. Also with only 12 Spells and 4 GDD the deck relies quite a bit on Sin Prodder to get Burn in to the Yard. Sin Prodder is good when it works but I will stay wary of 3+ cmc cards that do nothing when they enter or exit as long as a certain Reflector Mage is in the format

Finished another 4-1 with my list (after the initial 4-1 and the 3-2)- didn't drop a single game except in one ill-fated match against WR Humans where I lost g1 expectedly, won g2 in clear fashion and then didn't find a single burn spell in g3. Lesson learned - keeping no removal hands post SB vs. this deck is a risky business. That said, I won two other matches vs. Humans 2-0 and would like to believe I'm getting better in this particular one.

Biggest issue I have is the control matchup. The 4 Dragon Whisperers which have been truly excellent against everything else are a bit of a liability there, suddenly you wish they were Village Messengers again LOL. I guess I could probably play a 2/2 messenger Whisperer split and maybe that's what I should do.... EDIT: Could Ember-Eye Wolf be worth testing? Damage output OK, haste, 2 toughness, 2 cmc creature, and an acceptable anti-control card?

One card I've been extremely happy with is my 2xLightning Axe MD. Against WR Humans Axe plus Temper is exactly what you need to have somewhat of a chance, against GW this gives you a huge tempo play vs. Archangel and a tiny bit of insurance against Dromoka's Command Blowouts. Against slower decks, you very often can pitch a useless land by the time you need it. That it kills a Dragonlord Silumgar is just a bonus.

I feel this has truly been an interesting season so far! I plan on taking the deck to one more paper tournament but will continue to practice on here until rotation...

[stuffydollfan]

That human MU is such a nightmare. You definitely want to see removal in that opening hand and just up to draw into it long enough to stabilize. Is that even possible against that deck? Seems like they got gas for days. Maybe I am siding out poorly.


And for control I like the wolf. I like pretty much like anything with haste or card advantage. The great thing about the wolf is that he is good at almost any point of the game against control. Though with both Castigator and the Wolf on the side is probably way too many cards to devote to control. Especially with humans SB cards already taking up a large portion of the side.


As far as other MU goes, how is everybody experience with RG ramp or any of the other Eldrazi decks? I dont have many games against those decks but so far they have been able to beat me in close games.

[dauntless268]

Question for my last minute tournament preparation: I have 4 slots to dedicate vs. Control in my SB. Do you think it's a legitimate idea to run a 2/2 split of Zurgo and Castigator? Or better 3 Castigator and 1 Scab-Clan? I'm on 22 lands. Thx!

[stuffydollfan]

I think a 2/2 split with Zurgo and Castigator is fine with your land count.
Even post board you are going to want a creature on turn 1 and Zurgo helps with that. And Zurgo doesn't completely suck in the late game because of his dash ability lets him dodge sorcery speed removal. with 3/1 castigator/scab split might be a bit too top heavy for my liking. Even though castigator is great vs. control.

[dauntless268]

Thanks, Stuffydolphan. I did go with your recommendation in the end and made it all the way to the finals. Admittedly it was only a small tournament (actually a European Invitational Qualifier for SCG), but the atmosphere of being the the only guy with a red deck in the whole room was absolutely priceless. Will post matchup and sideboard guide tomorrow.

I have 200 EUR to spend on new cards now (no cash payout) so I'll be playing paper standard for some time to come

[LaZerBurn]

Well done!

I'm very much looking forward to the Match Up and SB Guide!

[stuffydollfan]

Congrats man!

I can't wait to read your report.
I'll be most interested on to hear about your humans MU. Those bastards get another stupid powerful card in the next set!

[magicdownunder]

Not sure that 3-drop is good enough for W aggro.

EDIT: I saw the new instant and angel... yeah it doesn't look good for "burn" so its going to be another creature heavy meta.
EDIT2: Wr Human looks EVEN BETTER - nothing great for madness or red aggro (though looking at the new mechanics I think they're not going to bother).

[dauntless268]

True, but it's gonna be a pretty massive addition to Bant Humans

[dauntless268]

[deck]Whispy Dragons, 2nd at MTG TOP Series Amsterdam, 25th June 2016[/deck]

Matchup and Sideboard Guide:

GW Tokens (unfavored)
This matchup is hard, especially on the draw. I find that the best chance is to out-tempo them, especially when we are able to use a Lightning Axe (or a Rending Volley after Board) to kill their Angel. If I manage to stick one or two early creatures, I can use my removal on their creatures to invalidate their Dromoka's Commands. Need to carefully assess every time whether it's worth killing a walker or better throw everything at their face.
OUT: 4 Lightning Berserker
IN: 2 Rending Volley, 1 Coldnight Castigator, 1 Roast
Lightning Berserker get's blocked by everything, and you can't afford to the tempo loss for trading up. Rending Volley is the best tempo play, and Roast is a bit of extra removal for Pacifists + Advocates

Wr Humans (even)
This matchup get's significantly better after board, when we should be able to break their synergies. Basic rule for me is to remove his creatures via trades and removal as early as I can - as on a 1:1 basis our individual threats are almost all better than theirs, and Declaration loses a lot of value as the games goes on. I try not to make plays that turn declaration into huge blowout (such as playing Thunderbreak against a full board while we still have removal, playing the same creature multiple times etc.), as we often don't recover from that. I play my Abbots as late as possible, CA is badly needed.
OUT: 4 Insolent Neonate, 2 Lightning Berserker, 4 Exquite Firecraft
IN: 4 Fiery Impulse, 2 Roast, 2 Rending Volley, 2 Twin Bolt
Firecraft comes out as the most mana-inefficient removal (you never have it going to the face in this matchup). Note that Twin Bolt can kill Thalia plus an x/1 creatures if you play it while the trigger is on the stack. Now that you've got so much removal, play Abbot only if flipping a removal spell gives it a target.

Bant Humans (even)
Similar to GW tokens, I think our advantage is that we have better tempo plays then them. Their deck is strong when it fully develops, but the manabase is a bit shaky so they often take some time to get their powerful engines going. I try to develop some sort of a board before / while you remove their creatures. Again, I like cheap removal, expensive one less so.
OUT: 2 Whispering Dragon, 2 Lightning Berserker, 4 Exquisite Firecraft
IN: 2 Zurgo, 4 Fiery Impulse, 2 Rending Volley

Sultai / Abzan Control (even)
Similar Matchup. This is not really a control deck, but much more of a midrange deck which will grind you out. Clear Blockers and try not to overcommit to the board. Berserker is almost always dashed here. Try to engineer a situation where you can follow up a Languish with a dashed Berserker. Before and after sideboarding, try to assess how many creatures they run and board accordingly.
OUT: 2 Whispering Dragon (or Shaman), 2 Lightning Axe, 2 Fiery Temper
IN: 2 Zurgo, 2 Roast, 2 Goldnight Castigator
I find both Axe and Temper not ideal here. Our 2-drops are a little bit slow and the evasion doesn't matter that much, bit we don't want to side out too many creatures. I like Shaman on the play since they sometimes keep mana open for an ultimate price and the morph is colorless.

BW Control (even)
They have less early blockers but tokens, so while the matchup is similar, I sideboard differently
OUT: 2 Lightning Axe, 4 Draconic Roar
IN: 2 Zurgo, 2 Goldnight Castigator, 2 Twin Bolt
During the tournament, I was considering to side out 2x Lightning Berserker, but the card is just too important against Languish decks

Grixis Control (even)
Kolaghan's Command is very annoying, so again a bit of a different sideboard configuration
OUT: 2 Lightning Axe, 2 Whispering Dragon, 2 Draconic Roar
IN: 2 Zurgo, 2 Goldnight Castigator, 2 Roast
Remember we can discard Fiery Temper to a Kolaghan's Command...

Last but not least a word of warning: In my view, what this season's Red Deck deck does well is to be able to play a bit of a longer game thanks to good value creatures and a serious removal package. What it lacks is the ability to simply run your opponent over - and in that sense it's very different than Red decks of old.

[LaZerBurn]

Great guide! Thanks! There are only 20 creatures in the list, I take it Abbot is missing?

[dauntless268]

Yes, corrected it - thanks!!

[stuffydollfan]

Yeah I guess the new Thalia doesnt help Humans kill at a faster rate but she's very powerful against both control and other creature decks. I could at least see her on the side if not in the MD.

Nice write up. How were your matches before side board?

[magicdownunder]

Last but not least a word of warning: In my view, what this season's Red Deck deck does well is to be able to play a bit of a longer game thanks to good value creatures and a serious removal package. What it lacks is the ability to simply run your opponent over - and in that sense it's very different than Red decks of old.

^This is something I agree with 100% - I've tried to explain this to mtgs a few times but i still get comments about how shocking it is that the aggro 'mirror' takes so long (people even compare my list with the 'all-in' whack brews but it really is different).

Also many thanks for the guide and report

[dauntless268]

How were your matches before side board?

Interesting question. Generally I would say with this red deck the postboard matches are better, because you become a more focused deck. But also g1 being on the play vs. draw matters a lot obviously.

In my tournament, a pretty annoying paper rule says that in top 8, the player with the better record from the swiss always wins the die roll. Having drawn into Top 8 as 7th, I found myself on the draw in g1 of all three Top 8 matches.

[stuffydollfan]

I only asked because the deck looks so slow. I know that speed isn’t part of reds thing this standard, but looking at your main deck list, I had to question how tough it is for you in general to win against the top decks in standard before you side board.

Even when red isn’t fast, I would like to think we want to end the game ASAP because in the late game, they usually have the advantage since at best a R/x deck will be trading 1 for 1 most the time and because our spells dont have the same impact as theirs in the late game. I will say that the sideboard is really good here.

[dauntless268]

I would partly agree.

The lack of 1-drops hurts the deck a quite a bit - but this is mainly because for a red aggro deck every mana counts and you don't want to waste a single mana in the early turns. My conclusion after testing was that Red has currently 3 quite good value-for-mana 2-drop creatures (Abbot, Shaman and Whisperer) while most of the 1-drops beyond Insolent Neonate are VERY matchup dependent (Lightning Berserker, Messenger, Zurgo and Gorger), Hence I consciously decided to take the risk with only 8 1-drops (Lightning Berserker was chosen for having the highest upside), which gives me an about 65% chance to draw one, not great but also not terrible. Playing a few more 1-drops and less 2-drops (like e.g. MDU does in his latest Mono Red list) is perfectly reasonable, too - and I have been going back and forth on this one a lot. Don't forget that with the exception of Mono White Humans and the absolute nut draws of GW Tokens and Bant Humans, most decks are very slow in this format - so speed is not quite so decisive as it may be otherwise, and card quality matters more.

What in my view isn't quite true is to generalize that you necessarily need to end the game as quickly as possible. What is more relevant is that what you can do with 1 mana worth of spells in order to swing the game - both early and late game. Take Lightning Axe / Rending Volley vs. Avacyn's Archangel for example - that play doesn't exist until t5 of the game, but spending 1 mana to neutralize 5 mana is huge. In my last game vs. GW I had 4 mana available to give my 3 Whispering Dragons flying over an army of blockers and to cast Lightning Axe to kill his Angel, which gave me a much more effective use of my mana than my opponent and actively contributed to winning the game.

And last but not least - 22 lands in a mono Red Deck is A LOT

[dauntless268]

3-1 and 2nd place at final FNM of the season (I warned you )

Winning against W Humans, Naya Walkers and GW Tokens 3-0 without a single game loss, I lost in finals to a GU Ramp Homebrew who didn't even have a sideboard! Oh well!!

Small change to the list above: -1 Dragon Whisperer +1 Zurgo in the MD (thanks Stuffydolphan for setting me thinking!). Deck feels very good as is. Not a single missed trigger is what really counts - Hoot!

[dauntless268]

Look, a nice RB madness outlet!

http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/bloodhallpriest.html

[stuffydollfan]

While the 1-drops might not be as explosive as they were in previous standard, I do like how all of them still have some use even after the early game. In this deck it does seem like you need a minimum of 8 1-drops since early game damage is usually the best opportunity to get in easy damage.

I like the 2-drops quite a bit here since they are good in the early game and have good impact in the late game. No complaints with those.

That's just my red mage mindset of the game. You're right when you say that's not the case here. Even with my madness deck, I cant come up with a consistent way of dealing 20 points of damage by turn 4. The quickness for red is not there and it has forced us to play to its other strengths.

And 22 land is fine even for your curve. You got a few mana dumps and both the shaman and abbot like having mana so you can cast those extra spells you get from them. That's what I run for madness.


Congrats on your FNM result. Very Impressive in not dropping a game against the higher tiered decks but disappointing to lose against green ramp.

I would lie to say i'm excited for the new standard but so far i haven't seen much love for red. Im not sure how i feel about the new vampire you showed. Feels like an excellent bargain if you madness her and at regular cost shes fine. Almost like a mini red titan.

[dauntless268]

Bloodhall Priest could be very nice with Olivia, since it can potentially get rid of blockers and then bash for a hasty 5...

[magicdownunder]

Still no burns or decent 1-2 drops, Wx Midrange looks more powerful now.

I might skip this season's standard.

[dauntless268]

Come on, why'd you say this as the one who has proven that this season's "unplayable red" is actually quite good?? Don't forget that a lot of burn is at common or uncommon, and that by definition could not have been possibly spoiled yet.

As for me, I definitely wouldn't mind a good 1-drop. But what I really hope for is another good Dragon or a halfway decent cheap madness outlet for red. Lightning Axe is already now playable as a sort of red Force of Will and the more expensive White Angels we get, the more we can possibly out-tempo them with this card. The fact that Thalia hurts nonbasics might also make a mono colored deck better positioned in relative terms. And if that all doesn't happen - a few good RB cards might be all the archetype needs.

We'll see!

[magicdownunder]

Yep - I'm still holding out some hope, RB midrange is shaping up well though (I dislike midrange...).

EDIT: We got a new 3cc sorc speed Lightning Bolt and its a rare....

[dauntless268]

Looks to me like a very solid card... better than Exquisite Firecraft given how it scales.

I also like Stromkirk Occultist. It's not quite Ire Shaman on its own, but 2 mana madness a very nice bonus. EoT Lightning Axe their creature, Discard Occultist, then Swing for an extra card. This guy is sooo much better than the near unplayable Bloodmad Vampire...

[magicdownunder]

We finally have 2c 3dmg burn and it EXILE stuff (this pleases me).

[dauntless268]

Excellent!! The ability to rid of these pesky Hangarbacks is absolutely priceless...

This gives us all the tools I think we need to build a more traditional Red Aggro Deck. This would be my starting point:

[deck]New Red Aggro v 0.9[/deck]

Bring on those overpriced Giselas... We've got 16 removal spells ready for her!

[magicdownunder]

I'm not really sold on Falkenrath Gorger, Zurgo Bellstriker or Stromkirk Occultist in a W dominated format.

If I was to play Rx Aggro - I would still pretty much run my old build except with the new incinerate.

- - -

I do however think Big Red is looking better now with the new Mirrorwing Dragon + United Resistance (to ditch all the access lands) that 6RR devil looks quite powerful as well (WOTC is really selling me on Big Red this set). Still need something to beat Control though I think I know how to sort that out.

- - -

Red is looking pretty good right now (not really aggro though, though I don't think we need to go the big red route either).

[stuffydollfan]

Would it have been too much to ask for instant speed burn? I guess i'll take it. Either way this will be a welcomed addition for red that's for sure. Harmless Offering by itself creates a whole bunch of wacky scenarios. And the new mythic dragon seems kinda interesting as well. I'm also a big fan of the Bedlam Reveler for the Rakdos deck since that deck tends to be more instant and sorcery heavy. Then there's also a new 2-drop vampire that enables madness for free that might be worth checking out. It is finally looking like red might be in a good spot this standard. Though other colors are getting lots of love as well.

Been doing some 2-man tournaments with my rakdos deck with some good results. I think I finally am getting the hang of playing against Humans and Bant. With humans I try to keep them down to 1-2 creatures of the field and go overhead with my flyers. And with bant I am throwing everything to their face. Rakdos should be able to out-tempo Bant most of the time. I could post some of my MTGO matches to show people the many different ways the deck can play if that would interest anyone.

[dauntless268]

I'm not really sold on Falkenrath Gorger, Zurgo Bellstriker or Stromkirk Occultist in a W dominated format.

Why exactly is that? I can see Zurgo actively being bad vs. Wx aggro as not being able to block, but Gorger should be an OK g1 card against them. Other than that if such white decks are slow and can't lock up the ground with Hangarback nonsense, shouldn't we have a realistic chance to go under them?

If I was to play Rx Aggro - I would still pretty much run my old build except with the new incinerate.

Sure enough. BtW, do you think Mirrorwing Dragon is good enough to add him to our decks, maybe with going to 23 lands? I have my doubts, but it's a hard to evaluate card for me

Red is looking pretty good right now (not really aggro though, though I don't think we need to go the big red route either).

What are you thinking of here?

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@ Stuffydolphan: I could very well see a fast RB Vampires deck with some of the new madness outlets. You have some ideas how to best build it?