[Primer] UR Delver

[rcwraspy]

I'm on 4 YP$ also, but that's probably because I've had a lot of success with it. There are grixis delver lists without any YP$ and then there are also grixis delve lists without either YP$ or Delver. I feel the YP versions are better than the other 2, and the right number is either 3 or 4 but I lean toward 4. I'd shave a Snapcaster before a YP.

[Valdarith]

I've been playing the deck on and off for the past couple of months, but it appears the meta has begun to shift toward strategies that Delver has difficulty with. Jund, Tron, and Amulet decks are all more prevalent now, and people are also experimenting with a more midrange Grixis list eschewing Delver that lines up particularly well against Delver of Secrets and Young Pyromancer. I believe this deck is now being pushed out as a result. If anyone intends to play this deck within the next month, I suggest wholesale changes that move the deck away from aggression and toward more goodstuff.

[Jack]

That's funny. I always liked the tron matchup.
Anyway, I'll keep playing aggro until I can't. That "midrange grixis experiment" doesn't even show up for online results and I have yet to see it locally. My number one rule when it comes to deck choice is "do powerful things", and this deck certainly does. Plus, with robots on the rise, the deck isn't poorly positioned.

This is what I'm on for now. I tried to take your advice of playing 4 YP$, but I found that I liked having an extra counterspell more (and he really goes poorly with deprive).

[deck]Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler

Instants
1 Deprive
1 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
1 Murderous Cut
2 Remand
2 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
4 Thought Scour

Sorceries
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp


Side
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Spellskite
2 Dispel
1 Flashfreeze
1 Hibernation
1 Negate
2 Rending Volley
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vandalblast
3 Dragon's Claw
1 Engineered Explosives
[/deck]

The sideboard could probably use work. It could also use blood moons, but I only have one of those, sooooo
I'll probably drop to one dispel and put in another anti-jund card. Probably only one rending volley as well.
I don't see the need for vandalblast, but it seems to be what everyone else is playing right now.

[Valdarith]

Pretty much everyone agrees that Tron is a poor matchup for Delver.

Your build seems fine. I'm also going back down to three Pyromancer.

Vandalblast serves double duty against Affinity and Amulet. It's key against the latter since it's easy for them to get under counters on turn one or turn two when we're on the draw.

[Jack]

re: Vandalblast: I get that, but the overload doesn't seem to make it any better than Shattering Spree and the like.
TBH, I don't have a clue how to fight amulet

[Valdarith]

You really can't. I got killed on turn two and turn three today consecutively through countermagic. The deck deserves a ban.

[Valdarith]

Tested this today at the LGS vs Grixis Twin.

[deck]
Creatures (10)
4 snapcaster mage
1 vendilion clique
2 tasigur, the golden fang
3 gurmag angler

Spells (29)
4 serum visions
4 thought scour
4 lightning bolt
1 dispel
2 spell snare
1 shadow of doubt
4 terminate
2 mana leak
2 remand
2 kolaghan's command
1 electrolyze
2 cryptic command

Lands (21)
4 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn
2 watery grave
2 steam vents
2 sulfur falls
2 creeping tar pit
3 island
1 swamp
1 mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 dispel
1 engineered explosives
2 nihil spellbomb
1 negate
1 flashfreeze
1 spellskite
1 izzet staticaster
2 blood moon
3 anger of the gods
1 keranos, god of storms
[/deck]

I don't know where GerryT gets the idea that Twin is favored in this matchup because I feel like it's VERY hard to lose as the Grixis Control player. I do think the matchup is slightly more difficult if the Twin player is playing three IoK like Gerry is, so I think it's a combination of that and him being better than his opponents that has jaded his opinion.

General thoughts on my decklist:

1) LOVE the singleton Shadow of Doubt. It's a lot like Splinter Twin in that once people know you're running it, they go to ridiculous lengths to play around it, so it's good at times when you don't even have it. And when you get someone with it, you GET EM.

2) Vendilion Clique felt really good here. Hand information is always nice to have and it gives the deck another evasive threat. You can also get it back with Kolaghan's Command, but it's obviously nowhere as good as getting back Snapcaster Mage.

3) Two Cryptic Command felt like plenty. In fact I'd say any more than that vs Twin is a liability, but it's probably really nice to have three vs other fair nonblue decks.

4) I didn't test the sideboard, but I'm not sure of a couple of choices. Should I be running Leyline of the Void over Nihil Spellbomb? Leyline is nowhere near as good when you don't draw it, but it probably makes the mirror unlosable if it's in your opener. Spellbomb seems better vs unfair graveyard-based decks since you can draw into it though. Also, Fulminator Mage or Blood Moon? Obviously looping Fulminator with Kolaghan's Command is nutter butters, but, y'know, Blood Moon...

5) Should I be running three Kolaghan's Command or is that too greedy? If I ran a third I'd take out Electrolyze. I feel like the mirror in game one could come down to who resolves more Kolaghan's Command.

6) Similarly, it feels like Remand is a real mirror-breaker. Remanding a Tasigur is just the best thing ever, as is Remanding your own spell in response to Cryptic Command.

[Jack]

I think 3 commands is actually where you want to be. The third might belong in the sideboard. Your list doesn't have any dedicated artifact removal in the side, and its kinda comforting to know that you have something to bring in to stop artifact strategies. This is especially nice with command because it gives you an answer to some artifacts that they might side in against you while still being a strong card even if they don't draw any artifacts.

[Jack]

I should probably get myself a shadow of doubt. Hell, I should probably get the stuff to change to grixis control, but I don't feel like spending more money on a game I don't play too often.

[Platypus]

Maybe the Grixis Control versions should have their own thread? There are lots of similar card choices between those decks and Grixis Delver, but they are still different enough to warrant different threads. They both get lumped together under Grixis Control on MTGGoldfish (Mtg Top 8 seems to separate them) and it's bothersome to find just the Delver versions there.

I'm still on Grixis Delver, mostly because I don't have Cryptics, Cliques, Fulminators, Tar Pit etc for Grixis Control. This is my current list:

[deck]
Land
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Tasigur, the Golden fang
2 Gurmag Angler

Spells
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Terminate
1 Murderous Cut
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
1 Deprive
1 Remand

Sideboard
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Blood Moon
2 Shatterstorm
2 Electrolyze
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Counterflux
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dispel
1 Monastery Siege
[/deck]

I've taken this (or similar) to FNM twice in July. 3-1 the first time (lost to Bloom), and 2-1-1 yesterday (lost to mono-green ramp/stompy, draw against a slow new player with a borrowed bad RW deck. Should have won the match, but I didn't want to be a jerk about slow play. It was FNM and the guy was obviously inexperienced). Anyway, I'm taking something similar to the Modern WMCQ in September. But it needs to be tweaked and I need to practice more with it. Still feels quite capable.

I'm still unsure about the Tasigur/Angler ratio, feels good right now, but I could test some other ratio as well. The Murderous Cut feels a bit awkward at times, maybe a third Terminate instead? Although, having a one-mana removal spell is great as well with this low land count. Deprive and Remand...could maybe be Dispel and Spell Pierce instead. The rest of the main deck feels ok for now.

The sideboard on the other hand needs to be worked on. I first just threw in some things I want to try, so it's a bit of a mess.

2 Dragon's Claw - These go nowhere as long as burn is a thing.
2 Blood Moon - Unsure about these, but I don't have Fulminator Mages. Maybe skip on the LD altogether? Or Molten Rain?
2 Shatterstorm - I don't like Vandalblast, could maybe go for Shattering Spree instead. Shatterstorm is a blowout against Affinity though, but costly.
2 Electrolyze - Feels necessary
1 Kolaghan's Command - I want a third available
1 Counterflux - Against control matchups
1 Engineered Explosives - General usefulness
1 Keranos, God of Storms - This probably needs to go, too costly. But it is great in those long matchups.
1 Spell Pierce - Great.
1 Dispel - Great.
1 Monastery Siege - Tried this yesterday. Needs more testing. Dropped it turn three against burn and the mirror (chose Dragons both times). Did its job both times. Choosing Khans might be good in longer matchups, so maybe dropping Keranos for a second copy?

Cards I'm considering:

Inquisition of Kozilek (I don't have any Thoughtsiezes)
Vapor Snag - Against the mirror, when they drop an early Angler/Tasigur

Any thoughts?

[Jack]

Dispel should be 1 main, 2 side.

[Platypus]

Yeah, I could certainly go with that. I also want some sweepers in the SB, most likely Anger of the Gods.

[Valdarith]

Yeah, at least 3 Dispel in the 75 and quite possibly all 4 depending on the expected meta. It's pivotal in blue matchups and vs Burn.

[Platypus]

I'm having doubts about Grixis Delver for the upcoming WMCQ, but I'm still a bit interested in thoughts about this list:

[deck]
Land
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt

Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Terminate
2 Mana Leak
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Electrolyze
1 Murderous Cut
1 Dispel

Sideboard
1 Monastery Siege
2 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Dismember
1 Vampiric Link
1 Dragon's Claw
3 Duress
1 Negate
1 Spell Snare
1 Surgical Extraction
[/deck]

It's based on Caleb's list in here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... er-primer/
But I've had to change a few cards due to availability. No Thoughtseizes or Spellskite mostly, but based on the sideboarding guide I think Duress might work just as well, and while Monastery Siege isn't close to Spellskite it still works well against Burn. But I might be able to borrow what I'm missing.

[Valdarith]

Try to find a second Vampiric Link to replace the Dragon's Claw. Also, you won't miss Spellskite vs Burn because so many of them are bringing in Revelry blind against you. I've actually only been using Spellskite vs Affinity, Boggles, and Amulet.

Anything less than two maindeck Spell Snare is wrong. It's such a solid card right now and is amazing in the matchups where it's good (Grixis,, Affinity, Goyf decks, Storm, Burn).

Why are you having doubts about Delver? I happen to think Control is the best Grixis deck having played all variants, but Delver is still a strong deck.

[Platypus]

I did lousy with it (not the list above) last FNM (0-2-2). Lost to Merfolk and Mono Blue Tron, the draws was against two similar RW aggro decks that I drew against the time before. I tried some different stuff in my sideboard (left the Blood Moons at home for example), and I think I play the deck too aggressive and wrong. This doesn't worry me too much, it's just lack of experience with the deck and it's hard to play well and offers lots of tweaking choices. What worries me is the lack of results from bigger tournaments. It just doesn't seem tier 1 at the moment. Not enough people play it and get results.

[Platypus]

I was a bit surprised about the missing Spell Snares in the main deck. Maybe swap the Electrolyze for the Spell Snare in the sideboard at least.

[Platypus]

Caleb's deck (slightly different manabase) got 8th place at a SCG Premier IQ this weekend:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=90580

I don't know how big those tournaments are though.

[Valdarith]

They are big enough to take note of their results.

[Platypus]

Ok, so there's hope for the deck then. Alright, maybe I'll sleeve it up for the last minute trials the day before, and decide after that.

[Platypus]

He streamed (http://www.twitch.tv/calebdmtg/v/13862485) with this sideboard yesterday:

1 Spellskite
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rough//Tumble
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Dismember
2 Vampiric Link
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Spreading Seas
1 Surgical Extraction

[Jack]

I was a bit surprised about the missing Spell Snares in the main deck. Maybe swap the Electrolyze for the Spell Snare in the sideboard at least.

Historically, the reason these decks played spell snare is because blue red loses hard to Goyf

Terminate changes this.

[Platypus]

Of course. There's still quite a few 2CC spells you want to get rid of, but it looks like Spell Snare isn't that important at the moment.

Anyway, I skipped the WMCQ (couldn't get anyone to share gas costs with, so I go to the Std one instead). Not a single Grixis Delver in the tournament, but 5 Grixis Control (don't know if any of these ran Delver). However, a UR Delver list got Top 4:
[deck]UR Delver WMCQ Top 4[/deck]

[Valdarith]

Spell Snare is actually even better now than it was a year ago. Snapcaster Mage, Terminate, and two mana blue countermagic is seeing much more play now, and Spell Snare is one of the best cards you can have against blue decks. It's also much needed against Amulet and Grishoalbrand on the draw. Also, despite Affinity being a great matchup, they can steal games with an explosive turn one followed by a turn two Cranial Plating, and having Spell Snare for that case has nipped that plan on multiple occassions.

[Jojja]

[deck]
Land:

1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave

Creature:

4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Sorcery:

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lava Spike
4 Serum Visions

Instant:

1 Spell Snare
2 Deprive
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
4 Vapor Snag

Sideboard:

1 Darkblast
1 Deprive
3 Dispel
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Negate
1 Rise/Fall
2 Roast
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Shattering Spree
1 Terminate

[/deck]


So I have been playing with this deck for some time now, and I really love it. It has been great for me and Abbot is just one of the best red cards I have played with. I'm fully off the YP train right now, the Abbot has just had a bigger impact for me.

Anyone else on the Abbot train yet? The tempo has been great and between Tas, Abbot and Snappy the deck can actually play a longer game if needed. Deck has a solid game against Jund and the Twin MU is just great.

[Jojja]

Hi guys,

Quick update ater yesterdays Modern "FNM" at my LGS. There where 36 players who showed up to play, the shop has a 4 rund cap, and I had made some tweeks to the deck after my last post. Including th cosmetical upgrade to foil Delvers.

R1, I play a new Affinity player and we have some ver close games where he wins the first of the back of a Etched Champion and comes close to doing the same in game 3. However my removal and Vapor Snags keep his board to a minimum and basically nullifys his Ravagers that he trys to go all in on in game 2 letting me pull out the win 2-1. Delvers and Swiftspears do a lot of heavy lifting this game and get me there in the end.

R2, I get paird against UWR Resto control. I win this game 2-0 without much problems. His threts are just to expensive while my interation and creatures gets in under him. Prowess is a real problem for him as I pick fights pre-combat.

R3, I go up against Grixis Twin. My oponent takes the first game of a topdeck Exarch into twin after a long grindy game where we are both emptyhanded and I'v been drawing landsfor 3 turns. Post SB I bring in my Dispels, Deprives, Negate and Rise/Fall taking out the situational stuff like remands, Lava Spikes and one of the Snags. What follows are 2 games that are increadably grindy and where the lower number of lands and inherent cardadvantage of my deck really shines. I get to battle past multiple sweapers and counterwars by using Snags and Rise/Fall on my Abbots and Snappys to end up with more cards in hand and more efficient threts on the table. It ends 2-1 just before Time is called.

R4, I play against U/W Tron. I take the first game of a blindflipped Delver into a Swiftspear, Lavaspike, Prob on turn 2 and a Servum Visions into Bolt+Lava Spike on turn 3. The Second game gets a bit more grindy and my opponent stalls out on 4-5 lands for a long time while I have to battle past 2 Timely Reinforcements and 3 Gifs. I was lucky in drawing 2 Dispel and 1 Negate to allow me counter everything of value that he plays except for the Timly's by bouncing my one Snappy to replay the Negate and one of the Dispels. While doing this I was beating down with a pair of Swiftspears for the win 2-0.

In the end I got 1th and some nice credit at the store.

The main thing I took away from the night was the insain interactions between Vapor Snag and Abbot/Snappy to allow the deck to out-value other decks and being able to grind out games that I would have been losing before adding Abbo's to the deck.

I have never been happier witht he deck and I really thing that moing away from the YP build is correct in Modern(Legacy Delver I think the YP builds are still superior).

Am I the only one on the Abbot Train on here? If not I'd love to hear what you guys think about him and the role of him in the deck.

[deck]
Land:

1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave

Creature:

4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Sorcery:

4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Lava Spike
4 Serum Visions

Instant:

1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
4 Vapor Snag

Sideboard:

1 Darkblast
2 Deprive
3 Dispel
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Negate
1 Rise/Fall
2 Roast
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Shattering Spree

[/deck]

[Platypus]

I switched to playing Burn again for my latest Modern FNM, because I had some troubles with my Delver deck (probably my meta at the time). This is different enough from that so I could probably try it in our next Modern FNM (that's next week). I have no comments on the Abbots yet, but I do want to try them and I haven't been too fond of YP.

But those Lava Spikes...are they really worth it? Have you considered/tried something like Forked Bolt in that slot? Or perhaps a mix of the two? The rest of the deck seems ok enough.

[Jojja]

I've been toying with the idea of Forked Bolt, maybe a 2-2 split is a good direction to go. And take out the Command. Thanks for the idea, I'll be trying it out next time!

The Lava Spikes are actually rather nice. They add a lot of damage with the Prowess guys and let you gain quicker kills. However I do see the value in adding 2 Forked Bolts as it helps the deck against Tokens, Affinity and Elves providing some good 2-1 action.

[EDIT]New decklist after some tweeks.

[deck]
Land:

1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave

Creature:

4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Sorcery:

4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Lava Spike
2 Forked Bolt
4 Serum Visions

Instant:

2 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
4 Vapor Snag

Sideboard:

1 Darkblast
2 Deprive
3 Dispel
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Negate
1 Rise/Fall
1 Terminate
1 Roast
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Shattering Spree

[/deck]