Open Site Blathering (formerly Advice from iridium ITT)

[( G_R )]

My last post may have been overlooked because of this ultimpossitroll, so let me just reiterate: grow a pair guys.

#regards

[( G_R )]

I'm talking about cojones, to be clear...

[Senori]

I didn't choose the words irrelevant or ignorant in your quote above, so I don't mean those to apply to the person I'm about to mention. But, I do wish that Senori had known me a little better before he wrote the various things he did in my app. I think he feels the same way now, too, and he PM'd me a while back to say he'd changed his mind about that.

I mean,

I can be vocal all I want, but I'm still one vote, and that vote's on the losing side plenty.

Any mod can be vocal and filibuster ad nauseam, but when it comes down to it we have to convince other people if we want to succeed. It isn't "we'd love to have you back but Johnny B. Goode from Standard objected" it's "I want you back but most people disagree with me."

[Pendulum]

I didn't choose the words irrelevant or ignorant in your quote above, so I don't mean those to apply to the person I'm about to mention. But, I do wish that Senori had known me a little better before he wrote the various things he did in my app. I think he feels the same way now, too, and he PM'd me a while back to say he'd changed his mind about that.

I mean,

I can be vocal all I want, but I'm still one vote, and that vote's on the losing side plenty.

Any mod can be vocal and filibuster ad nauseam, but when it comes down to it we have to convince other people if we want to succeed. It isn't "we'd love to have you back but Johnny B. Goode from Standard objected" it's "I want you back
but most people disagree with me."

Interesting word choice. Why not "This is best for the site but others disagreed instead?"

[( G_R )]

How about "this is fair and just"?

[Talore]

It doesn't mean a whole lot, but I have changed my mind and now support unbanning kpaca and kijin (in addition to Madding.) The probation penalties were bullshit and you shouldn't be banned for a suspension offense like what happened. It's one more person to make arguments in the mod lounge, at least

[Captain Murphy]

Azrael is Gandhi

[Captain Murphy]

Am I getting banned Talore? Gals is just telling me to wait for boubs but its taking ages

[Talore]

Boubouille has been ridiculously busy from what I can tell. He's got a lot on his plate with the moving they've done and MTGS isn't the only website he takes care of from what I understand. It sucks for the rest of us, too. All we can do is be patient.

[Captain Murphy]

I understand, I'm just interested as to if it seems a possibility I will be banned. Its cool though I understand that Boubs only knows most likely.

[Shalako]

Boubouille has been ridiculously busy from what I can tell. He's got a lot on his plate with the moving they've done and MTGS isn't the only website he takes care of from what I understand. It sucks for the rest of us, too. All we can do is be patient.

I'd think proving we are all big boys who can work together without a nanny would be nice.

Does PF's not being banned for sharing his account set a precedent for others who were banned for sharing their account then?

[Kaitscralt]

I understand.

I don't.

He came here during an alleged move to a new continent combined with purchasing the largest MTG community on the website and had time to make a dossier on what has happened and put hope in our hearts. And now a month later he is too busy? No, I am sorry but that does not work for me. Unfortunately I am not in a position where I can do anything about it.

[Galspanic]

I understand, I'm just interested as to if it seems a possibility I will be banned. Its cool though I understand that Boubs only knows most likely.

I don't know who you are on mtgs or why you think you would be banned, but should I look into it?

[Col. Khaddafi]

He's the guy I borrowed the account for browsing the Zombie Gutter (and formerly CI)

pinkfloyd

[Nai]

But, understand, to the staff, this is basically out of the ordinary.

Well Nai, do understand that our bannings are basically out of the ordinary since we were all discretionary banned.

So, how do we fix this exceptional situation in a non-standard way? Can we work out something better than the standard appeal process?

Are you planning on answering this post Nai?

I
had already posted something to the effect, so I figured the post was answered. But I'll answer more thoroughly:

As is, any appeal is most likely going to be the second appeal for that person. That's already 'better than the standard appeals process'. They're also getting an appeal before the one-year marker, which is the usual wait time before an appeal. This is also 'better than the standard appeals process'. So we're already looking at going further than usual.

If you have ideas that aren't 'simply unban everyone', feel free to comment.

[Nai]

Posting on a website that isn't MTGS isn't an exceptional thing, nor is saying, "You should make an appeal thread to appeal your ban." I believe Pendulum asked as much earlier in this thread. While I'm sure Pendulum in his wildest fantasies believes he holds as much sway over MTGS as you do, you are the one with Administrator access and the aura that comes with a bold tag and username.

What I'm doing right now is something close to if you came into my Gamestop and got kicked out for, let's say, causing a problem with another customer and things getting rowdy. Right now, this is as if I learned through the grapevine what other establishment you were going to, went there myself to offer my apologies for how we mishandled the
situation and then asking you to come back to the store so we can have the situation resolved.

Not quite an identical situation, no. And this -is- the internet. But this isn't a site I'd be coming to otherwise, simply because MTGS is the only site I really use for magic. I'm only here for you guys.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, I'm trying to relay how deeply ingrained these thought processes are and how they are harmful (and sort of based on a very twisted non-logic if you stop and think about it) just generally, not even specifically to this dialog.

And I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass either. I'm saying that this is something that, to my knowledge, has never been done for any banned member before.

[Nai]

Again, I would love if we could explore alternatives in order to reach something more of a B) case scenario. As opposed to private individual appeals on MTGS, do you think something else could be worked out? Maybe we could strike an agreement if some new ideas are brought to the table?

The issue that many have here is that you're a banned member asking for favors. No other banned member (and there have been a small handful of discretionary banned members, you can include them in this) would get an agreement for a different way to get an appeal through. You're asking us to understand that the situation is different for you guys. This sort of thing is new and has never happened before, yes. But you also need to understand that you're
asking for something way, way different than we've ever done before for anyone.

You need to understand that you're asking for special treatment. And that's a big problem for a lot of the staff.

[Nai]

Why do you guys need to pick us one by one in some cave? Aren't we discussing already?

Who is moving this to a cave?

Nai has requested multiple times that we take this ongoing discussion to individualized hidey holes in the MTGS appeals subforum instead of outside in a public space.

I've asked you to make the appeal 'official' by actually making an appeals
thread on 'Salvation so start things up, and mentioned that stuff you said here may not be taken into account by mods over there that don't want to use this site.

The mods were already upset when they assumed we made an appeals thread for Madding without an appeal from him (the two threads went up very quickly one after the other). We're not going to make an appeal discussion without an actual appeal.

[Nai]

Some of these are decent points. But there's also the reason we actually make it democratic: having a number of minds on the situation gives us multiple viewpoints and helps to ensure that we're getting it right.

There's five admins. If we are the ones dealing with the unbannings, not only is it going to take a long time for all of us to get our information together, but there's also the question of bias. There's the question of getting the conclusion wrong. There's the question of 'if they screw it up, who do I appeal to? There's the question of fairness there.

All
important issues to consider. And I would never tell you not to consult with lower staff.

But at the end of the day, you guys are in charge of this. You're the admin, it's your province, and you've put in the time and effort to become better informed than most of the staff on these issues.

They don't have cause to bicker with you about special treatment - you have discretion to deviate from normal measures as you see fit, so long as your objective is the benefit of the site. You're the leaders - you write the rules of procedure for yourselves in line with your overall duties and objectives.

It's not the province of the lower moderation crew to joggle your elbow and dictate what methods you can or cannot choose to carry out the best interests of the site. It's not mine, either, for that matter. All that any of us can do is to attempt to advise you/talk your ears off.

But at the end of the day, no one but admin and owner have the power to dictate your methods,
your procedures, or your scope of responsibility, and you have exactly as much power as you choose to assert. If you think this is the right way to handle the situation, explain that, have a conversation about it, but don't let social or political pressure from me, them, or anyone else get in the way of exercising your best judgment.

I mean clearly, you're still having the conversation despite the grumbling, but there's been a series of suggestions that lower staff have stymied despite admin having contrary ideas about what was the best way to handle it. And I think in a number of those situations, admin had a more intelligent view of what was best for the site that they allowed lower staff to veto for political reasons. But the balance of power has swung too far on the scale between autocracy and weak central leadership. Lower staff are exerting more influence upon policy than they should be allowed - you've ceded a great deal of your own authority to these people, to the point that you're crippling
yourself from making politically controversial decisions that may nevertheless be necessary, in your own best judgment, for the good of the site.

Don't let others stop you from voting your conscience. I know you're each capable of making courageous and tough decisions in the face of adversity, you've demonstrated that plenty of times. But it seems like you conceive of your leadership role or leadership style as more limited and more restrained and low-key than it is in truth - or ought to be.

The 5 admins can all be sitting there saying "hey yeah, this is a great idea. Let's unban him" and the staff and a number of more involved users would rise up. Do we just say "fuck you I am right you peons?" Or do we talk about stuff to make sure we don't miss anything? I prefer the latter, but apparently getting input and gauging where people are at makes us corrupt when you don't agree with it

You never stop talking and
seeking to improve your information - but you also have a duty as the person in charge to take the best action that you, not the group, determines is available. If you're uncertain or ambivalent, it's fine to delegate. But if you let subordinates run rampant over you when you're more capable of making the decision than they are, you're no longer acting as a leader. You're just a mediator in a room of disorganized people.

Part of the job of a leader is persuading others. If the five admins get together and decide something is a good idea - then the next logical step is to convince the rest of the staff/users, or to be convinced by the staff/users after talking it over. But it's not to cave in to a decision that you don't believe is good for the site, against your own good judgment.

What you're suggesting is a very, very different way of doing things than we've done for probably the better part of the past year. Perhaps I should remind you that one of
the reasons we've gone to this 'democratic voting' method is because the upper staff decided, without the lower staff, to close the Gutter?

They both have evils and downsides. We're already getting accused of being corrupt, and that's -with- the staff largely in agreement on any given situations.

[Nai]

Guys, if you ever go for the appeal process, just say "Scumbag made me do it" in case people call you out on something. You have my blessing.

That happened to me and the Process that Nai is proclaiming lead to me being screwed.

For God's sake Nai you guys didn't even have the courtesy to let me know my appeal had been denied in the APPEAL THREAD , People refused to answer my questions and it was obvious from the First Post that they didn't give a shit about me.

I highly doubt anyone will go through that waste of time and
effort but if they want to try it's on them.

If you're going to lie, can you at least make it a good lie?

It's been five days since I made the request for a better screenshot. You have been online since then (12-8-12 at 5:59 pm CST). The staff is taking your total silence, including the lack of request for time or update on what you are doing to gather this information, as an unwillingness to cooperate.

As such, the ban will stand. You may appeal for unbanning one year from your original ban.

You posted a screenshot supposedly to absolve you. I asked you to also include the timestamp of the post in the screenshot so we could verify that it related to your banning. I told you failure to do so would result in your appeal being denied. Five days later you had made no posts, but you had been on the site, so I made the denial official.

Please don't derail the discussions here by lying, thank you.

[Col. Khaddafi]

This sort of thing is new and has never happened before, yes. But you also need to understand that you're asking for something way, way different than we've ever done before for anyone.

You need to understand that you're asking for special treatment. And that's a big problem for a lot of the staff.

Like you're admitting the circumstances of the banning are totally exceptional, but still insisting that it is treated in the standard way? You are contradicting yourself.

It's like you're not even trying Nai. I've told you before. I'm interested in meeting halfway the bridge, not reaching your end of the bridge. I told you already that telling others that we need to meet at C) when options A), B), and C) are on the table, is not how you
conduct an sincere negotiation

[Nai]

Clearing out an entire subforum whose permissions once gave a normal user access to Administrator control is not an ordinary thing. I know I have the bias of being a part of it, but we were involved in an exceptional thing. It's not every day entire subforums get put up on the chopping block and cause a huge struggle on the main forums (testing grounds/extendos were the only other example of this IIRC).

I see you're going post-by
post in response, so these posts I'm making are going to drag that whole activity out. I'll cut myself off here. Thanks for taking the time to respond to us.

I'm aware. What I'm saying is that it's not ordinary for an admin to go -to- a banned user and say 'okay, let's work together to get you unbanned' either. As-is, usually when someone's banned and appeal denied, that's it. End of story. So having appeals re-opened, and coming in to guide and coach as to 'this needs to stop, this would be okay, this needs to be on MTGC' is already out of the ordinary.

I know it doesn't sound like much. But understand, on our end, this -is- a huge thing.

How did KCW get unbanned then?

KCW put up an appeals thread one year after his previous appeals thread. He made his appeal, we told him the appeal didn't seem valid, like the previous year. He came back, answered all of our questions in a way that satisfied us, and got unbanned.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Please don't derail the discussions here by lying, thank you.

Nai, stop.

Just stop.

You are antagonizing people accusing them of being liars and rehashing the same arguments.

Stop. This discussion is headed in the right way and we need to keep bringing constructive propositions to the table. That's what Azrael and Galspanic have been doing. Again, you're not helping in the little bit.

Thank you for taking this into consideration.

[Nai]

This sort of thing is new and has never happened before, yes. But you also need to understand that you're asking for something way, way different than we've ever done before for anyone.

You need to understand that you're asking for special treatment. And that's a big problem for a lot of the staff.

Like you're admitting the circumstances of the banning are totally exceptional, but still insisting that it is treated in the standard way? You are contradicting yourself.

It's like you're not even trying Nai. I've told you before. I'm interested in meeting halfway the
bridge, not reaching your end of the bridge. I told you already that telling others that we need to meet at C) when options A), B), and C) are on the table, is not how you conduct an sincere negotiation

If you're going to ignore my posts, I'm going to ignore yours, and that's basically all there is to it. I'll retype what I typed earlier:

You're getting to appeal before the one year marker. In many cases, this will actually be the second or third appeal before that marker. You also have multiple admins here saying 'show us personally that you've changed so we can tell the staff that you've changed'. That's already us bending over backwards to help you get a successful appeal through.

You're asking for more special treatment, which the staff (and I mean other people have voiced this issue) does not like. At all.

[Nai]

Please don't derail the discussions here by lying, thank you.

Nai, stop.

Just stop.

You are antagonizing people accusing them of being liars and rehashing the same arguments.

Stop. This discussion is headed in the right way and we need to keep bringing constructive propositions to the table. That's what Azrael and Galspanic have been doing. Again, you're not helping in the little bit.

Thank you for taking this into consideration.

I'm trying to get you guys to appeal so we can get you back on the site. There is someone in this thread who's
saying appeals doesn't work, and citing a situation that never actually happened. It's my job to show that it didn't happen.

[Thrillho]

The issue that many have here is that you're a banned member asking for favors. No other banned member (and there have been a small handful of discretionary banned members, you can include them in this) would get an agreement for a different way to get an appeal through. You're asking us to understand that the situation is different for you guys. This sort of thing is new and has never happened before, yes. But you also need to understand that you're asking for something way, way different than we've ever done before for anyone.

You need to understand that you're asking for special treatment. And that's a big problem for a lot of the staff.

Nai, I think the thing that you're missing is that a "sort of thing" that "is new and
has never happened before" by its very literal definition in special, so trying to then go on to tell us that it doesn't deserve special treatment because everything else about it is special word for word based on your above description doesn't make a lick of sense, nor do the ingrained attitudes of the stickler diehards you're speaking for saying you shouldn't be here talking. Talking isn't special for you, I think we can all attest to that. Doing something would be. We are asking you to do something.

[Col. Khaddafi]

I told you before Nai. I do not trust the staff enough to appeal since I was leaked info that there was a plan to ban me using retroactive infractions, at one point I had told publicly 3 days before that I had decided to drop the issue and would never post on the main forums again.

Is that clear?

Now Galspanic asked me what would be my attitude if I were hypothetically to be unbanned. I have answered him because that's how you conduct a polite and constructive discussion.

[Thrillho]

I'm trying to get you guys to appeal so we can get you back on the site. There is someone in this thread who's saying appeals doesn't work, and citing a situation that never actually happened. It's my job to show that it didn't happen.

You don't have a job here on this site, unless posting and involving yourself in the community is a career path (we welcome this choice, btw). Ignore obvious trolls because that's what got us off track the last 80 times we've tried to have this conversation. Shalko is making up a pile of lies and using incendiary language
and that's distracting you from telling us to make an appeal thread.

[Nai]

The issue that many have here is that you're a banned member asking for favors. No other banned member (and there have been a small handful of discretionary banned members, you can include them in this) would get an agreement for a different way to get an appeal through. You're asking us to understand that the situation is different for you guys. This sort of thing is new and has never happened before, yes. But you also need to understand that you're asking for something way, way different than we've ever done before for anyone.

You need to understand that you're asking for special treatment.
And that's a big problem for a lot of the staff.

Nai, I think the thing that you're missing is that a "sort of thing" that "is new and has never happened before" by its very literal definition in special, so trying to then go on to tell us that it doesn't deserve special treatment because everything else about it is special word for word based on your above description doesn't make a lick of sense, nor do the ingrained attitudes of the stickler diehards you're speaking for saying you shouldn't be here talking. Talking isn't special for you, I think we can all attest to that. Doing something would be. We are asking you to do something.

But what you're asking me to 'do' is to flat out unban you. Which basically isn't going to happen. So what 'special' thing do you want? What is it you're trying to get, Thrillho? What I see is 'unban us without appeal or discussion among mods', which just
isn't happening. I see questions of public appeals, which may happen. But there's no real consensus on what it is that's wanted.

Yes. It's something new that hasn't happened before, which is special. But so is EVERY discretionary ban we issue, and we've done a handful in the past year. And we don't do this for -every- discretionary ban. So you're already getting special treatment.

[Nai]

I'm trying to get you guys to appeal so we can get you back on the site. There is someone in this thread who's saying appeals doesn't work, and citing a situation that never actually happened. It's my job to show that it didn't happen.

You don't have a job here on this site, unless posting and involving yourself in the community is a career path (we welcome this choice, btw). Ignore
obvious trolls because that's what got us off track the last 80 times we've tried to have this conversation. Shalko is making up a pile of lies and using incendiary language and that's distracting you from telling us to make an appeal thread.

Not distracting me. I was just going down post by post and was trying to ensure I hit just about everything. I'm still about two pages behind.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Nai, you guys never mass-banned people to the point that a thriving subforum died at your hands. That is a first in 7 years of MTGS history.

What we are asking is a modicum of goodwill, not that you come here antagonizing people and calling them liars.

What we are asking is for people to throw new ideas into the arena like Galspanic and Azrael have been doing, not having people rehash the same argument over and over like a broken record.

[Nai]

Nai, you guys never mass-banned people to the point that a thriving subforum died at your hands. That is a first in 7 years of MTGS history.

What we are asking is a modicum of goodwill, not that you come here antagonizing people and calling them liars.

What we are asking is for people to throw new ideas into the arena like Galspanic and Azrael have been doing, not having people rehash the same argument over and over like a broken record.

N_S, before I stop responding to you, respond to me:

What do you want from me?

I've told you where we're going beyond what we've done before. You're asking for goodwill. So what goodwill do you want? What are you asking for that doesn't go over the line for us?

[Col. Khaddafi]

I want you to look at what Galspanic has been posting ITT as a rough guideline on how genuine efforts to fix a strained relationship are conducted.

And please don't call people liars again. It's antagonizing and unbeffiting of someone with your responsibilities.

[Nai]

Look, I'm getting too frustrated posting back and forth with you, N_S. I'll let Gals work with you guys for a while.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Thank you, that is very much appreciated. No hard feelings as for me.

[Kaitscralt]

Nai, is it not clear that they want to discuss alternatives in an open forum? Like we've been doing? Why are you ignoring the progression and saying they are blatantly asking to be unbanned without any moderator input. No post has even hinted at that request.

Shalako please don't derail the discussion with your bullshit.

[Thrillho]

But what you're asking me to 'do' is to flat out unban you. Which basically isn't going to happen. So what 'special' thing do you want? What is it you're trying to get, Thrillho? What I see is 'unban us without appeal or discussion among mods', which just isn't happening. I see questions of public appeals, which may happen. But there's no real consensus on what it is that's wanted.

That was never something I said and you're basically glossing over tens of posts I have made to you specifically, which is actually pretty offensive when I'm actively trying to be more patient with you. In fact, while the eventual conclusion that we would like to reach is "flat out unbanning," there have been many many many many more suggestions
for routes to eventually reach that conclusion that don't involve you snapping your fingers and going into a mod control panel to uncheck a box labeled "banned."

edit: Madding said it better than I did, so let me quote his post just to make this clearer:

Nai, is it not clear that they want to discuss alternatives in an open forum? Like we've been doing? Why are you ignoring the progression and saying they are blatantly asking to be unbanned without any moderator input. No post has even hinted at that request.

I'm sorry this is so frustrating for you. I think actually reading posts for their content should make this "Why aren't they listening to me and just posting an appeal thread when I already told them I'm not just going to come here and say ok you're unbanned?" repetition much less
draining on all of us. That is not meant to be antagonistic. You are clearly not reading the words in posts or the suggestions made in them. No one has come in and said "Unban us right this second because you were wrong." Very few of us have even implied we should go completely over the head of an appeals process (AFAIK, only Shalko has said we should be unbanned with a probationary leash applied for a year, which is still not as simple as "immediately unban us all and let's forget this whole thing").

If you want to be helpful, do not rehash the same request every post and get upset when we're not doing that because the whole point of this argument is that our mutual extreme polar desired courses of action don't work for the other party. That's why I apologized here, being stuck in the mud in the swamp of "I'm right you're wrong" wasn't pushing the cart forward. If you're going to help me move this cart, push with me. Or let Galspanic push, he seems like he's got
muscley arms.

[Kaitscralt]

Also I'd like to just state my general disappointment in Nai telling an owner of this site he is done talking to him because of a couple hours of unproductive discussion. Rome was not built in a day. Duno, I guess I expect better people skills.

[Thrillho]

We bent his store's last copy of The Bouncer for PS2, so it's understandable his patience is not at its thickest.

[Thrillho]

on a tangentially related note, i'm doing a let's play of the bouncer with a couple friends that's going to be up on youtube that i will link in another thread when it's finished.