Open Site Blathering (formerly Advice from iridium ITT)

[Galspanic]

You never stop talking and seeking to improve your information - but you also have a duty as the person in charge to take the best action that you, not the group, determines is available. If you're uncertain or ambivalent, it's fine to delegate. But if you let subordinates run rampant over you when you're more capable of making the decision than they are, you're no longer acting as a leader. You're just a mediator in a room of disorganized people.

Part of the job of a leader is persuading others. If the five admins get together and decide something is a good idea - then the next logical step is to convince the rest of the staff/users, or to be convinced by the staff/users after talking it over. But it's not to cave in to a
decision that you don't believe is good for the site, against your own good judgment.

I get that and far as I am concerned, the "subordinates" are not running rampant. The information gathering is a little slower than I would like, but keep in mind that we are trying to solve a problem that started 7 years ago. I'm not going to rush it. I'm not planning on going anywhere any time soon, so I'd rather get things right. There is also the matter of Boubouille... he is a variable we've never had to deal with. We aren't the "leaders" anymore - more like upper management. It's not entirely relevant, but I can tell you that it's a very strange dynamic to work with. So yeah, I have to convince myself, then FOUR other ADMINS, then the staff... it takes time and a lot of stuff gets talked about. When we feel like we have what we need, we pounce. And despite what some things, a number of pretty big changes have happened.

[Azrael]

I get that and far as I am concerned, the "subordinates" are not running rampant. The information gathering is a little slower than I would like, but keep in mind that we are trying to solve a problem that started 7 years ago. I'm not going to rush it. I'm not planning on going anywhere any time soon, so I'd rather get things right. There is also the matter of Boubouille... he is a variable we've never had to deal with. We aren't the "leaders" anymore - more like upper management. It's not entirely relevant, but I can tell you that it's a very strange dynamic to work with. So yeah, I have to convince myself, then FOUR other ADMINS, then the staff... it takes time and a lot of stuff gets talked about. When we feel like we
have what we need, we pounce. And despite what some things, a number of pretty big changes have happened.

*nods*

Fair enough.

[Shalako]

Clearing out an entire subforum whose permissions once gave a normal user access to Administrator control is not an ordinary thing. I know I have the bias of being a part of it, but we were involved in an exceptional thing. It's not every day entire subforums get put up on the chopping block and cause a huge struggle on the main forums (testing grounds/extendos were the only other example of this IIRC).

I see you're going post-by post in response, so these posts I'm making are going to drag that whole activity out. I'll cut myself off here. Thanks for taking the time to respond to us.[/quote:
1uukvnik]

I'm aware. What I'm saying is that it's not ordinary for an admin to go -to- a banned user and say 'okay, let's work together to get you unbanned' either. As-is, usually when someone's banned and appeal denied, that's it. End of story. So having appeals re-opened, and coming in to guide and coach as to 'this needs to stop, this would be okay, this needs to be on MTGC' is already out of the ordinary.

I know it doesn't sound like much. But understand, on our end, this -is- a huge thing.

How did KCW get unbanned then?

[Galspanic]

You lied to my face once Nai, why would I trust you enough to go through the Appeal crockery again?

Dude. Stop. You lied through your teeth to us too. Is this really how you want to do this?

Guys, if you ever go for the appeal process,
just say "Scumbag made me do it" in case people call you out on something. You have my blessing.

That happened to me and the Process that Nai is proclaiming lead to me being screwed.

For God's sake Nai you guys didn't even have the courtesy to let me know my appeal had been denied in the APPEAL THREAD , People refused to answer my questions and it was obvious from the First Post that they didn't give a shit about me.

I highly doubt anyone will go through that waste of time and effort but if they want to try it's on them.

*nods*

When *everyone* is responsible for making these decisions and interacting with others - the end result is that *no one* will do it.

It sounds like people are beginning to become aware of that now, though, so perhaps we can expect a different result (or at least a different method) moving forward.

Yes. When it was just me and Sene it was easy. 5 Admins is tough.

OK that's progress, finally. How do you suggest we proceed, Galspanic?

You tell me.

These events occurred collectively. Maybe we could collectively recap them in chronological order, providing our different points of view? I remember Sene made a solid post providing his view of the events. That's where I would start the dialogue if my opinion is requested.

I don't know if that would really help anything. All that would do is show who blames who for
what. I don't think the past for me is too relevant. I am more looking at the present and how we move ahead with this stuff. You guys aren't the only people that have been banned either and we are constantly looking at how to work with people in that category. The fact that an hour ago you were still being a rabble rousing dick doesn't help, but I also know that you tend to respond to people the way you feel you are being addressed. So, whatever, let's not get our egos wrapped into this too much, yeah? I don't care who you are... I just don't want you making MTGS worse for people. But, if people really think that creating a timeline would help, sure... I guess. Do it?

[Shalako]

My appeal was denied because I was given contrary information then punished for not doing it

Timeline is a waste of time. We all know what happened.

[Shalako]

In a constructiveness note:
Gals, what is needed for The Unbans to happen that we can help with?

[Shalako]

Proof that we won't make MTGS worse for people?

I'd be willing to take a simple Year Long Probation to be unbanned.

[Col. Khaddafi]

I don't care who you are... I just don't want you making MTGS worse for people.

I mean, I assumed people wanted to process the appeals regarding the past crimes, which is why I suggested this approach.

If what you mean is that any unbanning is going to be handled regarding the prospective attitude of the banned members, that's fine too. I'll start:

If I would eventually get unbanned:
- I would begin a clean sheet in my opinion of the staff. I wouldn't love you guys, but I wouldn't hate you neither. I would accept that no-one would apologise the way we were treated through this ordeal. Essentially I'd erase these awful 6 last months of MTGS from my mind.
- I would probably not participate too much on MTGS. The Zombie Gutter is
a smoldering crater, and I think WCT suffered a lot since the shift in the policies that myself (but mostly Brandon) worked at enforcing. I think I'd just lurk in CI because I think it could help me gain perspective on the issues this site might come into if he ever takes off.
- I'd probably be able to focus my time more effectively into building this site rather than calling the iridium a bag of dicks in monstruous 1000+ posts.

Basically, that's all I can imagine would occur if I were to be unbanned.

Also, I don't think I've ever haxxed, posted something innapropriate, or disruptive to the forums, even after I was banned, all I did was question the premises of the curse sale/gutter shutdown in the relevant CI threads. I don't think I'd be a problem as long as I am not harassed and I cannot envision this to happen since what I cared about in MTGS disappeared.

Last but not least, you guys should not forget that Scumbag is responsible for

- Coming with the 2007 extended suspensions idea (
the life sentence CI thread, search it up)
- The RLA rules still in effect as of today
- The 5 admin idea (which was proposed already at a time where discussions about shutting down the Gutter were underway).

So yeah, I'd just like to be treated fairly. Indeed I tend to react poorly to being treated unfairly, but I like to think of myself as a reasonable person if I can meet halfway with other people (as opposed with meeting their own end).

Is that the kind of thing you are expecting Gals? Because I think everyone here is ready to draw a line on the ground and let bygones be bygones.

[Azrael]

In terms of what next practical steps to take forward, to resolve the appeals issue, it seems like we have to decide the ideal venue and participants.

The constraints we seem to be working under are:

1. The unwillingness of some staff members to hold the discussion in place where they feel vulnerable to being ganged up on or verbally abused, and the desire to post their candid views in private where they will not be retaliated against.
2. The reluctance of the exiles to go through a private appeals process with minimal interaction between their "accusers" - essentially, they want a sixth amendment right to "confront the witnesses against them".
3. Whether it's appropriate to deal with all of the bannings en masse due to the common history and causes, or whether they need to be handled individually, due to perceived differences in culpability.
4. The desire for the gutterites to have input on one
another's appeals, so that they are not, in turn, being "ganged up on", or denied assistance and moral support.
5. The tradition of appeals being private.
6. Where to hold the appeals. I don't think this matters terribly much, other than finding the place that's most logistically suitable for either individual or mass appeals. If it's individual, salvation seems like the clear choice. If it's mass, the best place for everyone to talk would be in a thread here, at Onar's place, or some other third-party venue, where no one is currently banned.

---

As to #1 and #2, I think Nai has already hit upon one appropriate solution. At minimum, the staff's internal arguments and stances need to be regularly summarized, so that there is a chance to meaningfully respond and engage in back and forth with any private objections. The staff can hold private discussions in the lounge, per usual, and admin can summarize the issues, or staff can present their views themselves if they so choose.

#4
and 5 I think are similar issues. Ordinarily, appeals are kept private out of respect to the banned users' privacy. In this case, the gutterites seem to want to waive that privilege of privacy for the sake of a more open discussion. Other than tradition, I don't see a particularly valid objection to that request, so long as the staff members themselves don't feel "ganged up on" by the presence of multiple participants.

On #3, I think, the issue could be decided en masse. The same root issue is at play in each case. The exiles believed that Scumbag was getting railroaded, and in various ways, they retaliated. Some also choose to evade bans or suspensions - others did not.

So the questions the staff would need to resolve are:

1. Affirm that private discussions will be summarized and provided, so that a response can be made to any questions or objections.
2. Decide whether or not they will allow the exiles to waive their privilege of privacy, and if they are willing to handle multiple
people wishing to participate in one another's appeals so that no one feels outnumbered.
3. Whether the appeals can be decided en masse, or individually in a group thread, or individually in individual threads.

[Blackhound]

For what its worth.

I do not belive Kijin would cause any trouble if he was to be unbanned, he has been helpful to me with my deck I am building and I asked a question to him regarding dual lands, again he was nothing but helpful. I have no doubt he would post the same on MTGS, It should also be noted that he warned you guys of a possible malware attack to Salvation.

N/S Kaitscralt Clock king, I dont have much to say other than that nearly a year ago these 3 guys were on iridium and things were running pretty smoothly site wise. I personally find it somewhat crazy that 6 months after being on staff they are banned from the site.

Poggydude/Shalako, I could be wrong but I think they just decided to go out with a bang after seeing all there freinds banned. (I know how that feels)

Kpaca, He may use erm (shall we put it "courlorful language") behind closed doors, but I do remember him giving short advice to
people with problems in RLA. I dont belive he is all that bad of a guy. And I also dont belive he would go back to cause any trouble if unbanned


Last bit, one of the things that got this snowball rolling was that aim message sent to N/S saying that upper staff were planning to ban him, have you found out which Admin/Global sent that to him ?

2 cents, if im not wanted in this disccusion then just ask me, I dont mind.

[Kaitscralt]

Azrael, your summary is nice, but Nai just keeps saying "Appeal, appeal, appeal," whenever someone tries to talk things through with him.

[Galspanic]

My appeal was denied because I was given contrary information then punished for not doing it

Timeline is a waste of time. We all know what happened.

You don't know what happened because if you did you wouldn't think we were wrong. Or maybe we don't know and because of that we screwed it all up. Really, this is a lot more complex than you are making it out to be. Your appeal was denied because based on what we saw you were fabricating evidence and lying to us. But again, that's not important now.

In a constructiveness note:
Gals, what is needed for The Unbans to happen
that we can help with?

I have to admit that I am still in the more abstract phase of the game. I need to feel like any banned member, not just Gutts, will come back to the site and have fun there. But also, they can't be a problem. I'm not talking about "getting an infraction for something" problems either. I am talking about to bull shit rally cries, name calling, drama, pains in my ass. Is that shit really that much fun anyway? I just don't want another drama storm in CI the first time you see something you don't think is right. I don't want the staff getting lynched. I don't want to see harassment and stalking. You know, the stuff that makes users and staff alike quit the site. The thing is, this isn't a Gutter thing - I want this from every single person that logs on.

Proof that we won't
make MTGS worse for people?

I'd be willing to take a simple Year Long Probation to be unbanned.

Personally, I will never sign off on another probation. Other might, but does holding a veiled threat over your head really fit in the solution column?



I hit submit a half hour ago and it's still here... Huh. Remember to hit submit twice I guess.
I have to run now and probably won't be able to provide replies to everything but I do read it.

[Azrael]

@Blackhound- I'd also note that Kijin wasn't alone in bringing the potential malicious attack to MTGS's attention. I believe the chief person to thank for gathering the information was actually N S, although it was universally supported by our entire staff and admin team to warn MTGS ASAP.

[Shalako]

For my specific situation would coming back on Year Long Probation provide the solution to your "can't be a problem" dilemma?

I'm personally fine with a threat looming over my head when it's a self-imposed act of flagellation.

I had fun on MTGS it was just in the Mafia section.

[Kaitscralt]

There's no way to handle the 'can't be a problem' issue without just giving people a chance.

[Yannaria]

not only have you lied to Shalako, you've lied about some of us to other users. I have been trout out as a user of gimmick accounts to evade my suspension and unjust ban with accounts I've never heard of.

[Thrillho]

For my specific situation would coming back on Year Long Probation provide the solution to your "can't be a problem" dilemma?

I'm personally fine with a threat looming over my head when it's a self-imposed act of flagellation.

I had fun on MTGS it was just in the Mafia section.

I am banned instead of suspended now (as was Kpaca) because of the concept of the "probation period," so no, that really doesn't help anything, it just holds a silent veiled threat over you (as Gals pointed out) until the probation period expires. Considering a good handful of people on MTGS are likely to goad us if we come back "because Gutter," I don't trust that all of us would immediately not be in the best state to handle
verbal assaults just for existing (there aren't even any reasons to feel threatened here and just look at how frequently our switches get turned "on"). I'm not saying we're incapable of handling being baited by a LogicX comment or 20,000, I just don't want to have the entire process undone by people who traditionally making a concerted effort to see us undone for myself or anyone else.

[Thrillho]

not only have you lied to Shalako, you've lied about some of us to other users. I have been trout out as a user of gimmick accounts to evade my suspension and unjust ban with accounts I've never heard of.

Thank you for your relevant and valued input. Your comments will be taken into consideration.

[Mogadishu Jones]

For my specific situation would coming back on Year Long Probation provide the solution to your "can't be a problem" dilemma?

I'm personally fine with a threat looming over my head when it's a self-imposed act of flagellation.

I had fun on MTGS it was just in the Mafia section.

I am banned instead of suspended now (as was Kpaca) because of the concept of the "probation period," so no, that really doesn't help anything, it just holds a silent veiled threat over you (as Gals pointed out) until the probation period expires. Considering a good handful of
people on MTGS are likely to goad us if we come back "because Gutter," I don't trust that all of us would immediately not be in the best state to handle verbal assaults just for existing (there aren't even any reasons to feel threatened here and just look at how frequently our switches get turned "on"). I'm not saying we're incapable of handling being baited by a LogicX comment or 20,000, I just don't want to have the entire process undone by people who traditionally making a concerted effort to see us undone for myself or anyone else.

I for one dont plan on making any posts that aren't in mafia or the occassional poem.

[ExarionUniverse1]

ok Gal,

don't care who you are... I just don't want you making MTGS worse for people

This one statement tells me a fellow admin of a different site that you think members no matter how good or bad they are affect the members of the whole site?

I will talk in general terms: Sure every site has great members and a few bad apples , but don't classify people by histories, people can change...



Example : Who ever thought N_S would be talking to you in a civil matter.

Second: the majority of your user base has their heads on the shoulders , and will ignore or make the bad apples leave by themselves. Just look at Source , Mana Drain, Magic Deck Vortex etc..

Thirdly ,you have seem to forget that your were a user once too , and you forgave a lot of things yourself.


Our jobs as admins is to be friends with our member base and help them succeed , while not getting power
hungry. It is not to show that we have more power or are better than them. That's the mistake, many of us make , we forget our roots.

Sincerely, Onar ( Russian Alara on MTGS)

[Senori]

On one hand, I trust that the admins have been following our "progress" on this site intently and can make an earnest assessment about which of us have grown or moved on from our troubling experiences. On the other, Senori joined this discussion two weeks after Harkius admitted that Senori fed him knowingly false information for what would appear to be just to drive drama and discord among hotheaded members of MTGS who are likely to get themselves in hot water once their tempers flare.

whoa whoa whoa

I don't know how much I can say about the Harkius thing, but it wasn't me trying to stir up drama, it was me trying to talk to him like a human being and be nice to him. Actually, if someone could link me to that Harkius post so I
can see what he said, I'd appreciate it xoxo

Also I've been arguing in your guys' favor for a while, so I'm probably not the best guy to be citing as an opponent

[Pendulum]

Isn't it in the chat?

Edit- sorry, that was a bit low on content. The problem with the chat is that it's hard to quote and difficult to cite as source. Seems better just to ask Harkius to provide his testimony.

[Senori]

Wait, I think I see what you're talking about but not the original Harkius post, something about Kijin and dossiers?

I actually have no idea what he's talking about re:Kijin. I did let him know (indirectly, accidentally, he can explain if he wants) that there was a post in GRR that mentioned how you could find out who he was, but I don't think it was by Kijin and anyway I have no idea how you'd get from that -> someone is compiling dossiers about members

Also I have nothing really against Kijin. Whatever animosity I had toward him died about six years ago

[Pendulum]

Does it matter, I guess? There are some here who don't like you, and following this argument leads to the Idle Hands Accusation, which is not a fun one to try to dispel.

[Kaitscralt]

Pendulum, you don't know who likes who and who doesn't like whom, and this is about moving to a state of clean slates, so kindly shut up.

[Kaitscralt]

But I do see what you're saying about moving on from the old stuff and ignoring the old dossier debate, just don't put words in other people's mouths.

[Pendulum]

That's fair.

[Kaitscralt]

Sorry to come off a bit hostile two posts up, you generally troll this thread so it took a few rereads to realize you were telling Senori to forget about it.

[Pendulum]

'Salright, man. I provide influence here at my own risk and I know it, no reason to apologize. Plus your avatar has big boobs so it's not like I'm gonna complain.

[Pendulum]

@Nai: Can I ask you to continue your story? Losing a community is always a heartwrenching thing, and I don't enjoy the idea of sounding ghoulish here, but it does seem likely that, possibly even because of what happened to you, your ex-community has moved on. Are you sure it's the same place that you once loved?

Relevant here for pretty obvious reasons, I guess. I get the impression that there are some who simply feel the MTGS community has moved beyond its past and unbanning the Gutterites would be seen as a regression; how would you prove that you are going to be an upstanding member of a community that doesn't have anything against you, but does hold issue against what you symbolize?

[Talore]

I made a thread in the mod lounge for hopefully solving some of the problems in the appeals process like the wall of silence people have had in the past.

[( G_R )]

Greetings from the sister republic of El Salvador.

I tl;dr some of the previous posts, but not all of them. I just would like to say this:

When I got the boot the lower staff didn't take part in the decision, that I know of. Unless you have a super-secret forum where you invite all staffers except the one getting fired, no vanilla mod was involved in the decision to kick Gaea's Regent out "because awkward". So, surprise! you guys can make decisions on your own. When "the staff as a whole" has to make a decision, it takes forever. And the decision is not made by "the staff as a whole". Not really. It's not even made by those who present the best case, or the best evidence. It's made by those who are more vocal and happen to agree with the most "rules-hardcore" admins.

tl;dr: decisions made by the staff as a whole are bullshit, not only because they are not really "
democratic" but because they are not even necessary, nor mandatory.

tl;drttl;dr grow a pair Sally admins.

[Kaitscralt]

I just fear this is an excuse to say, "Well, us admins wanted to unban you, but Little Jimmy who mods EDH said no. Can we still be friends?"

[Kaitscralt]

I made a thread in the mod lounge for hopefully solving some of the problems in the appeals process like the wall of silence people have had in the past.

Appreciated.

[Kaitscralt]

You're such a bad liar, Harkius.

[Senori]

No worries.

[( G_R )]

My girlfriend made things to "test" me when we were 15. I didn't tell her to go piss on a rope because I hadn't learned that expression from rianalnn yet.

[Talore]

It really doesn't go the way that some irrelevant local mod with an ignorant opinion sways the whole process for a decision. It does come down to reasoned arguments. The random guy that just says yes or no without a good reason doesn't really get heard much or they are easily swayed. The whole 'democracy' thing is to air ideas more than having a majority vote or anything. It still has flaws, though.

[( G_R )]

It really doesn't go the way that some irrelevant local mod with an ignorant opinion sways the whole process for a decision. It does come down to reasoned arguments. The random guy that just says yes or no without a good reason doesn't really get heard much or they are easily swayed. The whole 'democracy' thing is to air ideas more than having a majority vote or anything. It still has flaws, though.

I can think of three...

[Col. Khaddafi]

So you were lying to us and fostering drama in order to test us Harkius?

You should consider doing better things with your free time.

Also for the last time, Kijin never assembled dossiers on you. He couldn't care less and I was happy that this misunderstanding had apparently gotten solved through two people who were former antagonists meeting up and begrudgingly clearing up misconceptions. Guess I was too naïve or candid but it won't happen again. As the saying goes, fool me once.... etc...