Rx Burn

[Khaospawn]

Well, yeah. Tis better to kill people with the earthly elements than to use a man-made weapon. Right?

[BlakLanner]

It is less expensive. Watching and listening to them run around screaming while on fire does have a certain charm to it.

[Khaospawn]

[LP, of the Fires]

Whoever was bitching about burn not being able to cast firewalkers; the decks from the PT play 12~13 fetch lands in addition to there 2 foundries, so you actually have 15 of your 19 lands that cast it.

[LaZerBurn]

I had a strange idea for a Burn list:

---

[deck]
Creature 13
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the great Revel

Spells 28
4 Bump in the Night
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skullcrack
4 Searing Blaze
4 Boros Charm

Land 19
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground

Sideboard
3 Destructive Revelry
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Combust
2 Dragon's Claw
4 Lightning Helix
2 Deflecting Palm
[/deck]

It's just all of the greed. I'll try to test it in the next week.

I built this to within a few cards a couple of weeks ago It works great - Bump and Charm are wonderful but I think that the MD Helix. Firewalker, Path version is better so I'm on that now

While I'm here does anyone else ever find Swiftspear a bit lacklustre? I keep playing her because, er, well, everyone else is but I miss my Devils

[Khaospawn]

I actually really like Vexing Devil, but he's just not great in a format full of Junk decks. It's also nice to not have to mess with your creature base all that much post board either.

[rcwraspy]

Also...

Just so everyone is aware, the plural form of "helix" is "helices".

Let's be civilized mages here.

not when it's a proper name.

[Khaospawn]

Also...

Just so everyone is aware, the plural form of "helix" is "helices".

Let's be civilized mages here.

not when it's a proper name.

But it's not.

[rcwraspy]

Also...

Just so everyone is aware, the plural form of "helix" is "helices".

Let's be civilized mages here.

not when it's a proper name.

But it's not.

We're in a silly argument here but I think it actually is. Common nouns refer to classes (general groupings) of people, places, or things, whereas proper nouns are the names of individual people, places, or things. If you always capitalize Lightning Helix when you type it, that's a good indication that it's a proper noun. So a common noun would be "magic cards" or "burn spells" and "Lightning Helix," being an individual magic card's name, is a proper noun. Therefore its correct pluralization is likely "Lightning Helixes."

[warwizard87]

@Khaospawn im on burn for states. Jumping back and forth between white and black. Rakdos charm has been really good but not sure if bump is pulling the weight of charm and helix.

Did some testing Thursday night. Not sure if it wswas variance or not but i destroyed junk game 1, but was getting clobberd game 2. The build only ran 2 leylines but seemed to hit them 1 out of every 3 games. And i had 4 revelrys i just never seemed to draw when they had leyline, and when they didnt i seemed to die with 2 in hand. Was frustrating.

[Khaospawn]

Also...

Just so everyone is aware, the plural form of "helix" is "helices".

Let's be civilized mages here.

not when it's a proper name.

But it's not.

We're in a silly argument here but I think it actually is. Common nouns refer to classes (general groupings) of people, places, or things, whereas proper nouns are the names of individual people, places, or things. If you always capitalize Lightning Helix when you type it, that's a good indication that it's a proper noun. So a common noun would be "magic cards" or "burn spells" and "Lightning Helix," being an individual magic card's name, is a proper noun. Therefore its correct pluralization is likely "Lightning Helixes."

It is silly, but WoTC also capitalizes things as if it were a book title. It doesn't always mean it's a proper noun. For example, Call of the Conclave is spelled exactly as I wrote it - and just like a book title would be. It doesn't mean the Call or the Conclave itself is a proper noun, it's just how they choose to print it.

Or maybe I'm just dumb. Or it's probably both.

My gripe is really with that damn spellcheck giving me the red squiggly thing whenever I type Helixes. I know that helices is a real word, and let's face it, we're all gonna use plural Lightning Helix that way. It's Lightning Helices.

[Khaospawn]

@Khaospawn im on burn for states. Jumping back and forth between white and black. Rakdos charm has been really good but not sure if bump is pulling the weight of charm and helix.

Did some testing Thursday night. Not sure if it wswas variance or not but i destroyed junk game 1, but was getting clobberd game 2. The build only ran 2 leylines but seemed to hit them 1 out of every 3 games. And i had 4 revelrys i just never seemed to draw when they had leyline, and when they didnt i seemed to die with 2 in hand. Was frustrating.

Sounds like you just had a bad game.

[warwizard87]

Cool, so it was just variance. Was horribly frustrating. only won 6 out of 20 Post side games.

[Khaospawn]

Why is Junk playing Leyline in the first place is beyond me. Is it a meta thing where you're at? Do they fear you that much?

[warwizard87]

Testing vs one of the builds that top 8 pt fr. More specifically this list http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=79728

[warwizard87]

But to be fair burn is relatively prelavant at our state events, wv sucks in general. Last years was burn vs uw tron finals. Tron won. Gifts into iona is devastating.

[Khaospawn]

What list are you running?

[warwizard87]

[deck] // Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear

// Spells
4 Boros Charm
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Rift Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
1 Shard Volley
4 Skullcrack

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Combust
SB: 2 Deflecting Palm
SB: 4 Destructive Revelry
SB: 2 Kor Firewalker
SB: 2 Lightning Helix
SB: 3 Molten Rain
SB: 1 Path to Exile
[/deck]

Pretty much very few flex spots which is typical with burn

[warwizard87]

Side plan vs abzhan +4 revelry +3 rain -2 grimlavamancer -1 shard volly -2 boros charm -2 rift bolt. Not 100 if thats the right outs.

[Khaospawn]

Seems like Deflecting Palm would be good there instead of 2 Revelry (or just take out 2 more Boros Charm.) Also, Lightning Helix would be better than the Searing Blaze since Blaze has to target a player.

[warwizard87]

I definitely can see that about helix.

[Khaospawn]

Palm gets around Leyline.

[rcwraspy]

so instead of letting my sole contribution to the thread be a silly discussion on what is or is not a proper noun, I'll add that I have this deck built also. I have Abzan Mid and Burn in paper to bring to my shop's Tuesday events and I also have a Modern PPTQ on the 28th - not sure which deck to bring. I'm generally good with red strategies and all my good results (cash and top 8 finishes in 5ks, SCG opens, GPTs and PTQs) come from playing red decks. I'll be rocking the Pro Tour list with the small green splash for Revelry.

[BlakLanner]

After playing in my LGS's weekly Modern tournament, I am dropping down to 19 lands. Flooding everywhere with 20. I probably have to put a Shard Volley there, even if I hate it, since I don't think there are any better 1 CMC spells I can use in its place.

[Aodh]

Whoever was bitching about burn not being able to cast firewalkers; the decks from the PT play 12~13 fetch lands in addition to there 2 foundries, so you actually have 15 of your 19 lands that cast it.

15/19 lands has less than 0.6140350877192982 chance to have WW if you have two lands.

K.

[Valdarith]

It's not a card you're necessarily looking to cast on-curve.

[GoblinWarchief]

I'm not convinced , he is way more effective if cast on curve because it can perpetually stop attacks from creatures and it gains life from every spell cast after him. That's why i don't like him : if you cast him early you are taking a lot of damage to do so (supposing you have access to double white that is not so easy), if you cast him late he could have no impact on the game. (i promise, this is the last time i repeat that i hate firewalker )

[Valdarith]

Feel free to lose in the mirror as much as you like then.

[warwizard87]

Firewalker is basically free mirror wins. First to resolve one or the one with most normally just wins.

[Khaospawn]

Whoever was bitching about burn not being able to cast firewalkers; the decks from the PT play 12~13 fetch lands in addition to there 2 foundries, so you actually have 15 of your 19 lands that cast it.

15/19 lands has less than 0.6140350877192982 chance to have WW if you have two lands.

K.

Maybe you should send this to Manfied and Tian.

[rcwraspy]

If you don't like KFW, don't run him. He'll win you the mirror, but that's your call if you think you can dodge it. If you'd rather use Dragon's Claws (like I'm doing while KFW is in the mail) then go ahead, but you're sacrificing percentage points.

13 Fetches and 3 Sacred Foundries in some of these 19 land lists. I'm sorry but you will never convince me that because only 3 of your lands can't cast it, it's bad.

[Khaospawn]

This list has even fewer white sources:

[deck=Matthew Peacock
2nd Place at StarCityGames.com Premier IQ on 2/15/2015]Creatures (14)
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

Lands (20)
7 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
3 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Stomping Ground

Spells (26)
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
1 Shard Volley
4 Skullcrack
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard (15)
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Deflecting Palm
3 Destructive Revelry
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Wear
2 Molten Rain
1 Peak Eruption
[/deck]

[Aodh]

Of course KFW isn't bad. As a matter of fact, he's great. But, as usual, we have to compare the risk to the reward. Maybe he doesn't need to be cast on curve, but what does that even mean in a 19-land deck? We make our first two land drops and then hit every third thenafter... We're 61% to cast KFW from our opener and if that fails we're 75% to cast it around turn 4-5... Maybe free wins against a non KFW mirror is worth it.

Mathematics governs it all; anecdotal evidence highlights the exceptions, not the rules.

[hamfactorial]

All this math talk warms my heart

[Valdarith]

Of course KFW isn't bad. As a matter of fact, he's great. But, as usual, we have to compare the risk to the reward. Maybe he doesn't need to be cast on curve, but what does that even mean in a 19-land deck? We make our first two land drops and then hit every third thenafter... We're 61% to cast KFW from our opener and if that fails we're 75% to cast it around turn 4-5... Maybe free wins against a non KFW mirror is worth it.

Mathematics governs it all; anecdotal evidence highlights the exceptions, not the rules.

The only problem is that your math isn't concrete. You're assuming we're running 19 lands to push your numbers further in your favor, and you're not taking into account play-draw, mulligans, and win-rate without access to Kor Firewalker in the board. There are a lot of variables at work here and it's not as simple as saying "We only have xx% chance to cast game-winning card on turn two." If having Kor Firewalker in my board pushes my burn mirror win percentage up by 15 percentage points compared to, say, Dragon's Claw, would you say it's worth it then? I'm willing to bet against decks with Destructive Revelry (read: all the good burn decks) that percentage increase is about right.

[warwizard87]

Just fyi. Kfw is a real card. If your on boros you run it. Regardless of the math on turn 2 or 3 . If it hits the table you are most likely winning. Mirror matchs are won on the back of him.

Also deflecting palm is bonkers.

[Aodh]

Of course KFW isn't bad. As a matter of fact, he's great. But, as usual, we have to compare the risk to the reward. Maybe he doesn't need to be cast on curve, but what does that even mean in a 19-land deck? We make our first two land drops and then hit every third thenafter... We're 61% to cast KFW from our opener and if that fails we're 75% to cast it around turn 4-5... Maybe free wins against a non KFW mirror is worth it.

Mathematics governs it all; anecdotal evidence highlights the exceptions, not the rules.

The only problem is that your math isn't concrete. You're assuming we're running 19 lands to push your numbers further in your favor, and you're not taking into account play-draw, mulligans, and win-rate without access to Kor Firewalker in the board. There are a lot of variables at work here and it's not as simple as saying "We only have xx% chance to cast game-winning card on turn two." If having Kor Firewalker in my board pushes my burn mirror win percentage up by 15 percentage points compared to, say, Dragon's Claw, would you say it's worth it then? I'm willing to bet against decks with Destructive Revelry (read: all the good burn decks) that percentage increase is about right.

Of course I'm not accounting for everything, nor did I pretend to be doing so. Also, I have not tried to misrepresent anything. The majority of these lists and those on Sally have 19 lands, and someone said that 15 lands should certainly be enough.

If KFW 100% wins the game and your opponent's deck stays the same, your win rate goes up to around 62%. I guess that's a fine improvement, though you don't win all games you resolve KFW and your opponent probably has some tech of his own. Meh.

[warwizard87]

Like i said basically all burn lists have kfw right now. The person who resolves it first or the person who resolves the most tends to win the match.

Mana is only one aspect of the equation, impact on the game has to also take account. Kfc has a huge impact on the mirror match. So much so that sometimes bringing in your path to exiles in the burn mirror is right.

[rcwraspy]

Anybody else playing around with Pyrite Spellbomb in the list? At worst it can draw you into another card, at best it answers an opposing Etched Champion or Firewalker.

[Khaospawn]

Anybody else playing around with Pyrite Spellbomb in the list? At worst it can draw you into another card, at best it answers an opposing Etched Champion or Firewalker.

Me. I like it over Path since it kills KFW. However, I'm tempted to run a 1/1 split w/ Path so I can deal with nonsense like Twin and Prime Time.