Open Site Blathering (formerly Advice from iridium ITT)

[Pendulum]

@Nai: Meh. Again, either you show your faith in your own leadership or you don't. You're showing your faith in that ideal here, and my own belief in your abilities is strong enough to think you guys can handle a few trolls in CI... will you not share with me in that faith? Spring has come and the night is young, after all.

[Thrillho]

@ Kijin: I'm on your website to work with you. On your ground. Not mine. That's the best I can offer right now.

I just want you to come to this discussion knowing we will have to work together because it is a "two to tango" situation. That is all I ask for, and since it is what you're offering, then let's dance.

[Thrillho]

Nai, I took a second to read your post. It addresses the issues where you think you did wrong and offers reconciliation for them. I appreciate that very much. Does it address all of the concerns Gutter members have had with you or the larger administration? Probably not. Does mine? Also very likely not. Thank you for taking the time to recognize and admit some fault.

As far as coming back to this table with mass, singular, or no unbannings... I'm not precognitive, I cannot see the future. But I would like to move on from where we are in the present and I cannot do that unless everyone is in here having the discussion we need to have and the first piece to that puzzle is getting the bad blood out and quarantined. We've been trying to bleed out our misgivings for the past few months to various levels of success, but we're basically bled dry at this point and with the recent back-and-forth between NoHomers and TCM, I see we're
at risk for letting that poison seep back into what should be our clean blood. Speaking only for myself, no more. I won't have this anymore.

[Thrillho]

tl;dr: If you cut your shit out... If you come throwing around bulshit on how the Gutter had to go...

[Kaitscralt]

Nai, what would you like to discuss? Assuming unbannings happen, we'd just be regular MTGS members who have to follow the rules like everybody else. We'd be warned, infracted, suspended and dealt with for breaking the rules. All prior discussions concerning making changes to the MTGS Gutter are done, as none of us want to be in that Gutter any more, so we can skip that stuff. Treat us as individuals being unbanned, probations if needed. No vendetta's, no bad blood.

Also, forgive my eternal pessimism, but how do we know you and Galspanic aren't just going to disappear from the convo now that MTGS server is back up and you are no longer just wasting time on Sunday? I hope you prove me wrong!

[kingcobweb]

Also, you're responding to an obvious troll with grenades. Do not feed trolls. Why do you think no one responds to KCW?

probably because i make good posts

[kingcobweb]

If Galspanic stopped behaving akin to a "Village Simpleton"
maybe I'd feel less inclined to call him out on his passive/agressive ways. Except that everyone lost a crapton of time with his willing to "fix things" (like calling back kcw to make "the last Gutter post(TM)")

what

use the search function

he never called me back for anything you idiot

use the search function

No posts were found because the "anything good N_S has ever done" is not contained in any post.

[Col. Khaddafi]

look mike, if you want to stop behaving like a dolt for a second there and use the search function, you will find out the context you seemed to be anxiously looking for. There is even a thread called "the fate of the Zombie Gutter" nearby who might bring some further context to you.

But if you'd rather keep playing with your internet alpha male routine that's all swell too. I'm sure we all miss your 2006 misetings brand of humor and this thread can probably accomodate the extra entertainent too, so carry on I guess.

[Kaitscralt]

Hear kids take lessons from the uber gutter troll kcw

First, quote a post you don't like

Then, type "this is a good post"



TROLL OF THE YEAR 2013

[Nai]

@Kijin: The main question here is how to show to the staff that you guys intend to be valuable members of the community, that what has past is over and done with, that you want to be on the site and intend to make it a greater place. What you have right now is a few admins who are willing to talk, who are willing to make things happen and get you back in. But, as I said, we work primarily by consensus. We don't want to overrule the majority opinion on you guys. So we need to ensure that the opinion changes. That even the most diehard anti-Gutter mod can see that 'the Gutter is dead, long live the Gutter, these guys are not Gutter, they're just people'.

For example, several times in the very recent past we've found that some banned members have been using gimmicks to browse and post on the site. To the mods, this looks like they're flaunting the rules of the site and ignoring their ban. That's the type of thing that
makes them vote 'no' on an appeal.

I'm willing to work, but I'll admit that I'm not sure HOW to do this. Just that I want to. That post you made? The one that actually got me in here? That post was amazing. It's what I've been looking for. What we need to do is show that that post was made honestly and with, excuse the corny way of saying this, a pure heart. That you mean it.

@Kaitscralt: You'll have to forgive my pessimism in turn, but I have doubts that the first infraction will be met with the same open arms as you're showing me now. It truly needs to be accepted that 'there is no more Gutter, there is only Zuul', that 'because Gutter' is dead, etc. So if an infraction happens, don't simply cry foul. If it's a wrongful infraction, we deal with it. But if the infraction was justified, that needs to be accepted.

As for me vanishing? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the only times I have left discussions has been when I felt unwanted, or that I was being made to be
uncomfortable, in a discussion. I'm happy to be here.

[Kaitscralt]

As for me vanishing? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the only times I have left discussions has been when I felt unwanted, or that I was being made to be uncomfortable, in a discussion.

Um... you were the Pegging Chamber "liasion" dude...

[Nai]

Good point. In my defense, that was less 'leaving the discussion' and more 'Hey, Curse, info please?'

[Kaitscralt]

[quote="Nai » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:46 pm"]@Kijin: The main question here is how to show to the staff that you guys intend to be valuable members of the community, that what has past is over and done with, that you want to be on the site and intend to make it a greater place. What you have right now is a few admins who are willing to talk, who are willing to make things happen and get you back in. But, as I said, we work primarily by consensus. We don't want to overrule the majority opinion on you guys. So we need to ensure that the opinion changes. That even the most diehard anti-Gutter mod can see that 'the Gutter is dead, long live the Gutter, these guys are not Gutter, they're just people'.

For example, several times in the very recent past we've found that some banned members have been using
gimmicks to browse and post on the site. To the mods, this looks like they're flaunting the rules of the site and ignoring their ban. That's the type of thing that makes them vote 'no' on an appeal.

I'm willing to work, but I'll admit that I'm not sure HOW to do this. Just that I want to. That post you made? The one that actually got me in here? That post was amazing. It's what I've been looking for. What we need to do is show that that post was made honestly and with, excuse the corny way of saying this, a pure heart. That you mean it.

@Kaitscralt: You'll have to forgive my pessimism in turn, but I have doubts that the first infraction will be met with the same open arms as you're showing me now. It truly needs to be accepted that 'there is no more Gutter, there is only Zuul', that 'because Gutter' is dead, etc. So if an infraction happens, don't simply cry foul. If it's a wrongful infraction, we deal with it. But if the infraction was justified, that needs to be accepted.[/quote:
2bi8kgt5]

I've never cried foul about infractions and suspensions, even my first ban. I've always ridden them out. Only the last one, which was foul, have I been crying foul over. But really, we could go in circles forever about how individuals are going to cope with punishments and nobody will know what happens until something actually occurs. Me, personally? I don't plan on receiving any infractions. I've dealt with enough bullshit for one internet lifetime, thank you.

On to the other part of your post, I am glad that Kijin's post warmed your heart, but you shouldn't make us feel like we need to impress you with some sort of proof of piety. We're not trying to join a church. I've been trying to give advice to Sene about how to make Salvation better over the last couple months, a lot of it is archived on the mini-chat here at this website for you to dig up. And not just lynching staff members, either -- I took my time and laid out how I would handle CI and the CI Warrior's, because I think it
is a sickening cycle that goes on there. I think both the staff and the Warrior's revel in it equally, and I think the staff sub-consciously uses the CI drama as a way to keep busy summitting and re-writing pointless forum rules instead of making the website better as a whole for the Magic community (front page, articles, banner, etc.). Sene knows what I would do with CI and it is pretty drastic, but I don't expect any of the administrators to give my ideas a second chance because not drama-bombing over the forums makes their jobs seem much less important. But, to wrap up this mini-rant, even as a banned member I've tried improving Salvation, I just do it through the staff member I have access to. In sum: CI is the problem and should be overhauled under the same rules as the Bad Trader Forum.

But, Nai, you cannot only lend your eyes and ears and smiles to Kijin's of the world who make your stomach
flutter with butterflies. That is just not fair. I can be a nice guy too, but I am not going to make you fall in love with me just because you asked.

[Kaitscralt]

Good point. In my defense, that was less 'leaving the discussion' and more 'Hey, Curse, info please?'

No worries, I am just busting your balls.

[iamabadman]

i dont believe it because mods shown they cant be trusted

[Nai]

I've never cried foul about infractions and suspensions, even my first ban. I've always ridden them out. Only the last one, which was foul, have I been crying foul over. But really, we could go in circles forever about how individuals are going to cope with punishments and nobody will know what happens until something actually occurs. Me, personally? I don't plan on receiving any infractions. I've dealt with enough bullshit for one internet lifetime, thank you.

Then no worries.

On to the other part of your post, I am glad that Kijin's post warmed your heart, but you shouldn't make us feel like we need to impress you with some sort of proof of piety. We're not trying to join a church. I've been trying to give advice
to Sene about how to make Salvation better over the last couple months, a lot of it is archived on the mini-chat here at this website for you to dig up. And not just lynching staff members, either -- I took my time and laid out how I would handle CI and the CI Warrior's, because I think it is a sickening cycle that goes on there. I think both the staff and the Warrior's revel in it equally, and I think the staff sub-consciously uses the CI drama as a way to keep busy summitting and re-writing pointless forum rules instead of making the website better as a whole for the Magic community (front page, articles, banner, etc.). Sene knows what I would do with CI and it is pretty drastic, but I don't expect any of the administrators to give my ideas a second chance because not drama-bombing over the forums makes their jobs seem much less important. But, to wrap up this mini-rant, even as a banned member I've tried improving Salvation, I just do it through the staff member I have access to. In sum: CI is the
problem and should be overhauled under the same rules as the Bad Trader Forum.

CI needs to be overhauled, yes. That's what we're going to work on.

It's not a question of 'impressing with proof of piety'. It's a question of 'showing that the same problems aren't going to happen again'. Many of the mods believe that unbanning will just lead to more problems. More drama bombs. What we need to do is show them that their fears are unfounded, that having you return isn't going to make more work for them.

Honestly, the first thing is putting up appeals threads, saying 'I want back in, this is why, and this is where I"m going from here'. Those PMs you gave Sene? Helpful. Show them to the mods. You already fall under the suspension rule at this point, so you're good.

The next question is likely to be 'why don't you just undo it then'. And the answer is 'because we're
not just undoing it for everyone'. There are some members who got hit with suspension evasion that actually were problematic who actually need appeals. And this is a consistency thing. No favoritism, yadda yadda.

But, Nai, you cannot only lend your eyes and ears and smiles to Kijin's of the world who make your stomach flutter with butterflies. That is just not fair.

That post is simply what made me believe it was time to try again. That's all.

[Nai]

i dont believe it because mods shown they cant be trusted

No skin off my back.

[Col. Khaddafi]

I think we covered on the 100 or so last posts why appeals are not an option at this time for many of us.

Its a road many of us are not willing to take given past precedents

[Galspanic]

Nai, what would you like to discuss? Assuming unbannings happen, we'd just be regular MTGS members who have to follow the rules like everybody else. We'd be warned, infracted, suspended and dealt with for breaking the rules. All prior discussions concerning making changes to the MTGS Gutter are done, as none of us want to be in that Gutter any more, so we can skip that stuff. Treat us as individuals being unbanned, probations if needed. No vendetta's, no bad blood.

Also, forgive my eternal pessimism, but how do we know you and Galspanic aren't just going to disappear from the convo now that MTGS server is back up and you are no longer just wasting time on Sunday? I hope you prove me wrong!

(That last post sucked but I didn't want to
edit it before my wife kicked me off the play Plants V Zombies. It looks like you guys got the gist of it.)

If it appears as if me posting here is no longer productive, welcome, or sane I will leave. This isn't my place and until people don't publicly call me ineffectual, corrupt, lazy, stupid, and the like it will not feel like a place I am welcome. That's cool though - I actually really like the idea of multiple sites to serve the desires of different people. You guys do the Gutter way better than the Gutter does now (And when I talk about the Gutter I mean the forum not the people. I call you Gutts.). So instead of living in the past and holding onto what was once something very cool for a lot of you I think we need to let it go. Part of that is aimed at any of the staff who happen to read this - "becasue Gutter" is a real thing.

(I will fight probations tooth and nail. You are either someone that's okay to be on the site or you are not. These umbrella threats make for more
bookwork on our end, put tension between people that doesn't need to be there, and pretty much lets you know daily that there is Us and there is You and we are watching you. That's fun shit, eh?)

[Col. Khaddafi]

(I will fight probations tooth and nail. You are either someone that's okay to be on the site or you are not. These umbrella threats make for more bookwork on our end, put tension between people that doesn't need to be there, and pretty much lets you know daily that there is Us and there is You and we are watching you. That's fun shit, eh?)

I like this part of your post a lot (and not in a kcw way).

[kingcobweb]

[Pendulum]

Nai, what would you like to discuss? Assuming unbannings happen, we'd just be regular MTGS members who have to follow the rules like everybody else. We'd be warned, infracted, suspended and dealt with for breaking the rules. All prior discussions concerning making changes to the MTGS Gutter are done, as none of us want to be in that Gutter any more, so we can skip that stuff. Treat us as individuals being unbanned, probations if needed. No vendetta's, no bad blood.

Also, forgive my eternal pessimism, but how do we know you and Galspanic aren't just going to disappear from the convo now
that MTGS server is back up and you are no longer just wasting time on Sunday? I hope you prove me wrong!

(That last post sucked but I didn't want to edit it before my wife kicked me off the play Plants V Zombies. It looks like you guys got the gist of it.)

If it appears as if me posting here is no longer productive, welcome, or sane I will leave. This isn't my place and until people don't publicly call me ineffectual, corrupt, lazy, stupid, and the like it will not feel like a place I am welcome. That's cool though - I actually really like the idea of multiple sites to serve the desires of different people. You guys do the Gutter way better than the Gutter does now (And when I talk about the Gutter I mean the forum not the people. I call you Gutts.). So instead of living in the past and holding onto what was once something very cool for a lot of you I think we need to let it go. Part of that is aimed at any of the staff who happen to read this - "becasue Gutter" is
a real thing.

(I will fight probations tooth and nail. You are either someone that's okay to be on the site or you are not. These umbrella threats make for more bookwork on our end, put tension between people that doesn't need to be there, and pretty much lets you know daily that there is Us and there is You and we are watching you. That's fun shit, eh?)

Hello Galspanic! Welcome to MTGC! As the friendly resident people-welcomer, thought I'd take a minute to show you around our website!

The heart of this site is the chat. You are expected to act sensibly and, within reason, pay attention to the sensibilities of other posters while in the chat. Ignoring this may result in an infraction. Infractions are not meant to be taken sensibly, nor is the chat. Ignoring the chat is your best option.

There are a lot of mods here, but only one admin, although the admin is many people. I'd suggest you become friendly with some of him, but not all of him, as that will only lead
to dissappointment and heartache, as he is, again, many people and seems to have multiple-personality disorder in one of his, er, multiple personalities, at least. Any post may not be infracted, however, I don't believe the software is even capable of it, so if you care to begin a long-distance relationship with some of him I suggest you pick the prettier ones, and expect a rocky long-distance relationship when the other hims find out about you and him.

None of our users are able to write above a fourth-grade level. Writing above the fourth-grade level is not acceptable, unless English isn't your first language, so it is expected to post in a manner either befitting a nine-year-old or pepper your statements with words not in English. This is usually not a problem, see below.

Every Saturday is "get high/drunk as shit and post in chat Saturday." Truth be told, that is an average day on MTGC, and often leads to words which are not in English, and, more importantly, cannot be determined
by the reader to be in English, so all previous rules, including the imaginary ones, can and should be ignored.

Welcome to MtgCommunity and enjoy your stay!

[ganderin_dan]

These past couple of pages make me somewhat optimistic for things, as a relatively uninformed and unbiased (at least I'd like to think so) observer.

[Thrillho]

Also, you're responding to an obvious troll with grenades. Do not feed trolls. Why do you think no one responds to KCW?

probably because i make good posts

for me to poop on, etc.

[Thrillho]

It's not a question of 'impressing with proof of piety'. It's a question of 'showing that the same problems aren't going to happen again'. Many of the mods believe that unbanning will just lead to more problems. More drama bombs. What we need to do is show them that their fears are unfounded, that having you return isn't going to make more work for them.

If this is the issue: there's no Gutter to be at risk for deleting and no prospective Curse sale that is to be overturned apparently threatening the greater MTGS with its perceived white-washing of people's individual attitudes into one grey bland non-difference. If I want to write the magic equivalent of dick jokes, I have an outlet for it that is not your site and there is no place on
your site for me to do that.

As I posted ITT to Boubs, the only evasion I was guilty of was one Rumor Mill post (which was actually substantive) as Hard Gay about the Commander's Arsenal boxed set explaining why it was not the investment people presumed it was. Aside from that, I logged into accounts so I could read what people were saying about me because it's interesting that it's basically open season on someone the second it's perceived they can't read about it (that and I like to hear my own name/username). I was open with Galspanic about my activity when using a gimmick (IE that I wasn't posting, only browsing).

As for value, I demonstrated value to the site even after being banned despite the fact that for all intents and purposes in my being angry about my ban I should have been content to watch bad things happen to the site (from a human nature standpoint, not a good person standpoint). I messaged Galspanic about an anonymous tip we'd received here about an attempt to hack MTGS through
a back-end exploit. Although the details of this pretty much ended there, I let him know that I'd heard some weaver-level nonsense someone was going to pull and hey maybe watch out for it. It can be argued that my analysis of the Commander's Arsenal demonstrated value even though throwing a spoonful of chlorine into an ocean of urine generally cannot clean the ocean up. Regardless, when I am not personally being struck down, I am basically a pretty helpful and knowledgable guy who is willing to help out. I wouldn't have stayed on a volunteer staff for 7 years in boards that needed a lot of work before I started putting in the effort with them if I didn't want to be that.

[Azrael]

*happy sigh*

*wanders back to mafia forum and snuggles in*

[Kaitscralt]

It's the Christian thing to do

[Miguel 'Caza' Flores]

Also, you're responding to an obvious troll with grenades. Do not feed trolls. Why do you think no one responds to KCW?

probably because i make good posts

Eres un coño. Jejeje.

[Michel Chasse-Fleurs]

Also, you're responding to an obvious troll with grenades. Do not feed trolls. Why do you think no one responds to KCW?

probably because i make good posts

Eres un coño. Jejeje.

Un abruti complet, hehehe.

[Pendulum]

Dude just stop.

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

fucking sad human being.

[Captain Murphy]

We got more than one admin, pendi

[Nai]

It's not a question of 'impressing with proof of piety'. It's a question of 'showing that the same problems aren't going to happen again'. Many of the mods believe that unbanning will just lead to more problems. More drama bombs. What we need to do is show them that their fears are unfounded, that having you return isn't going to make more work for them.

If this is the issue: there's no Gutter to be at risk for deleting and no prospective Curse sale that is to be overturned apparently threatening the greater MTGS with its perceived white-washing of people's individual
attitudes into one grey bland non-difference. If I want to write the magic equivalent of dick jokes, I have an outlet for it that is not your site and there is no place on your site for me to do that.

As I posted ITT to Boubs, the only evasion I was guilty of was one Rumor Mill post (which was actually substantive) as Hard Gay about the Commander's Arsenal boxed set explaining why it was not the investment people presumed it was. Aside from that, I logged into accounts so I could read what people were saying about me because it's interesting that it's basically open season on someone the second it's perceived they can't read about it (that and I like to hear my own name/username). I was open with Galspanic about my activity when using a gimmick (IE that I wasn't posting, only browsing).

As for value, I demonstrated value to the site even after being banned despite the fact that for all intents and purposes in my being angry about my ban I should have been content to watch bad things happen to the
site (from a human nature standpoint, not a good person standpoint). I messaged Galspanic about an anonymous tip we'd received here about an attempt to hack MTGS through a back-end exploit. Although the details of this pretty much ended there, I let him know that I'd heard some weaver-level nonsense someone was going to pull and hey maybe watch out for it. It can be argued that my analysis of the Commander's Arsenal demonstrated value even though throwing a spoonful of chlorine into an ocean of urine generally cannot clean the ocean up. Regardless, when I am not personally being struck down, I am basically a pretty helpful and knowledgable guy who is willing to help out. I wouldn't have stayed on a volunteer staff for 7 years in boards that needed a lot of work before I started putting in the effort with them if I didn't want to be that.

Then let's show that. That's what I want to be visible to the other mods: that this is the type of thing we can expect. That the major argument
between both sides is gone and won't be returning, that the behavior we don't want to see will be in a place we don't care about. And that you guys returning means good things for us.

[Shalako]

I think everyone is okay with the "Zombie" Gutter being archived and locked away.

[Thrillho]

It is visible to all parties because this section is visible to all.

[Nai]

If you guys are okay with the Gutter closing, I'll simply pass that along and we'll process that immediately in preparation for this.

Thrillho: Yes, that's true. But I know a lot of mods aren't willing to come here for various reasons.

[Kaitscralt]

Why do we have to prove anything to the rank-and-file mods of Salvation? If they won't even come here to learn the facts then how do they have a say in what happens to us? I feel using this thread plus PM's and the file Boubs created should be enough in this circumstance.

[Captain Murphy]

Do you like shark chicks Nai?

[Col. Khaddafi]

If you guys are okay with the Gutter closing, I'll simply pass that along and we'll process that immediately in preparation for this.

Bannings should occur first and then the unbanned people should discuss this in the right place: the Gutter-Staff pegging chamber, where (hopefully) no one will feel scared of posting. Then at this point we can discuss what to do with the Zombie-Gutter. Otherwise this is just putting words in other people's mouths yet again.

Having you or another person pass messages is not the proper way of doing things and this has been proven to be very harmful in the past.

I would appreciate it also if Boubouille would chime in here as he hasn't a loaded past regarding the strained relationship. Everytime he was here
things seemed to progress in the right direction.

[Thrillho]

If you guys are okay with the Gutter closing, I'll simply pass that along and we'll process that immediately in preparation for this.

Thrillho: Yes, that's true. But I know a lot of mods aren't willing to come here for various reasons.

While it stinks that they wouldn't want to be here because we're a budding community and generally let our hair down all the time, I can understand why they wouldn't (possibly because they take the rabid dog analogy a bit too seriously and getting 8 shots in your back because you signed up for a Magic forum is no one's idea of a good time). That being said, although we "call out lurking" it's not like we're against it and they can read this thread and get their information or I guess you can
always cut and paste as long as you leave the fat on. Regardless, we're all pretty clear that there's no Gutter to be concerned about on MTGS and that's not an issue at this point. Even the SQL dumps are just something it would be nice for us to have, not something that makes or breaks or even stalls us moving on.