Greatest Idea Mafia *** Game Over ***

[Stardust]

Also, is Dechs just "confirmed townie" because of his content? If push comes to shove that will have to be re-examined.

You will be lynched long before push comes to shove, but no, it's not just for behaviour. That's a big factor, but he's also town for the same reason I am: he discarded a mafia card, there is no scum with reliable killing powers, therefore Dechs chose town because no one would choose Alien or Cult over mafia.

[Stardust]

I'm scared because I'm not sure which of you we should lynch first if this thing tonight doesn't just end the game.

It doesn't matter. It really really doesn't matter. Lynch me first if it makes you feel better. We know rcw can't kill. The only advantage to killing him first is ending the game a little sooner. If imopen doesn't follow through with targeting WitchHunt, he might be a better lynch anyway.

[rcwraspy]

how long have you been holding on to that quote as a cute way of calling me a Judas?

[Stardust]

how long have you been holding on to that quote as a cute way of calling me a Judas?

About 30 seconds before I posted it.

[Dechs Kaison]

I'm scared because I'm not sure which of you we should lynch first if this thing tonight doesn't just end the game.

It doesn't matter. It really really doesn't matter. Lynch me first if it makes you feel better. We know rcw can't kill. The only advantage to killing him first is ending the game a little sooner. If imopen doesn't follow through with targeting WitchHunt, he might be a better lynch anyway.

Absolutely agreed with the last part. If Imopen doesn't help us confirm WitchHunt is town, then he's definitely not acting in our interests and we should hang him.

[Stardust]

Whatever happens, I hope Day 5 doesn't last two weeks and five pages. I'm starting my vacation on the 18th, and there's no reason why we can't finish the game before then.

[rcwraspy]

Also, is Dechs just "confirmed townie" because of his content? If push comes to shove that will have to be re-examined.

You will be lynched long before push comes to shove,

Of course I'll get lynched before Dechs. But once I'm lynched you'll all know I was Saulus and am now Vanilla Town. If that point comes after a Stardust lynch, Dechs's alignment should probably be questioned.

he's also town for the same reason I am: he discarded a mafia card, there is no scum with reliable killing powers, therefore Dechs chose town because no one would choose Alien or Cult over mafia.

This is just theory, can't be proven, and is WIFOM. No decisions should be based on this loose of an argument.

[Stardust]

he's also town for the same reason I am: he discarded a mafia card, there is no scum with reliable killing powers, therefore Dechs chose town because no one would choose Alien or Cult over mafia.

This is just theory, can't be proven, and is WIFOM. No decisions should be based on this loose of an argument.

Show how it's loose. Do you think he chose mafia/werewolf and is withholding his kill? It might make sense to do this now, but certainly not on Night 1 or 2. Do you think he would intentionally choose an alignment that is strictly worse than another alignment he had available?

[imopen2]

I haven't read the last two pages beyond a quick skim but I see that you guys lynched Red and stardust has some kind of plan that I haven't read. I hope you know what you're doing

[Stardust]

The plan involves you, so you should probably read it. Target WitchHunt with your doctor ability.

[rcwraspy]

he's also town for the same reason I am: he discarded a mafia card, there is no scum with reliable killing powers, therefore Dechs chose town because no one would choose Alien or Cult over mafia.

This is just theory, can't be proven, and is WIFOM. No decisions should be based on this loose of an argument.

Show how it's loose. Do you think he chose mafia/werewolf and is withholding his kill? It might make sense to do this now, but certainly not on Night 1 or 2. Do you think he would intentionally choose an alignment that is strictly worse than another alignment he had available?

[/quote]

Sure. I'll start with Dechs's own words:

I just said why. Because it looks fun and no one sees it coming.

Plenty of people will choose to handicap themselves physically in order to win mentally. A fantastic example is my dad playing tennis. When he plays, he consistently runs around the backhand. He'll go out of his way and risk missing a return just to avoid his backhand. People pick up on this pretty quickly, and start shooting towards his backhand. Eventually he has to use it. The cool part is that his backhand is his best shot; he can put an ugly spin on the ball and hit it damn hard. The opponent is expecting an easy point, but what they get is blown out of the water.

But further, why are we relying on claimed discards? This is what you wrote for Dechs:

Dechs Kaison
Discarded: Mafia Roleblocker
Alignment: Town Lover
Role: Alien Silencer

The problems here are that 1. "town lover" could be a fake claim, and 2. there are lover cards from other alignments. Red claimed an Alien Bulletproof Lover card, but there's still an unclaimed Mafia Lover card that Dechs's alignment could have come from. And that's even if we believe the "lover" part of his alignment. The only reason we're treating parts of these cards as "confirmed" is because there aren't any counterclaims.

[Stardust]

Silencer is confirmed. The card he claims to have discarded for his alignment is irrelevant. All that matters is what he chose to discard and why. But sure, intentional handicap is a (small) possibility, making this only strong evidence instead of proof. His behaviour bumps that from 95% to 100.

[rcwraspy]

I'm not trying to get Dechs lynched since I'm just as convinced he's town. All I'm saying is that once Stardust and I are gone if the game's still going Dechs should no longer be considered confirmed.

But I'm using his cards as an example. Yes, Silencer is confirmed. But in no way whatsoever is the "TOWN LOVER" card confirmed. According to Dechs, that's the card he took his alignment from. This same problem exists for everybody's claims. Just because there haven't been counterclaims doesn't mean all these claims are confirmed, and we'd be remiss to base decisions on them.

[Azrael]

Let's kill RCW next. He's wriggling too much.

[rcwraspy]

I'm not wriggling. I just think Stardust is glossing over important things and that's dangerous.

[rezombad]

RedNihilist has been lynched!

he was:

---

town bulletproof lover

Bulletproof Lover Abilities:
During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
Bulletproof: You cannot be nightkilled.
Lover: If there are other Lovers in the game, you will form a Lover bond with them. All Lovers will die at the same time.

Faction Abilities:
Win Condition: You win when all threats to the Town are eliminated and at least one Town-aligned player is still alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

-----

It is now Night 4

Please do not post

Night will end in ~48 hours

Please PM me any night actions.

[rezombad]

imopen2 has died!

he was:

---

town Jack-of-all-Trades

Jack-of-all-Trades Abilities:
During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
You may use each of the following abilities once per game. You may not use more than one ability per Night.
Roleblocker: During the Night, you may PM me the name of another player. This player will be unable to use his/her ability (if he/she has one).
Cop: During the Night, you may PM me the name of another player. You will receive You believe NAME to be GUILTY if that player is aligned with the Mafia. You will receive You believe NAME to be NOT GUILTY if that player is not aligned with the Mafia. You will receive No result if your investigation failed.
Doctor: During the Night, you may PM me the name of another player. This player will be protected from all nightkills for that Night.

Faction Abilities:
Win Condition: You win when all threats to the Town are eliminated and at least one Town-aligned player is still alive, or nothing can prevent the same.

-----

It is now Day 5.

You may post.

-----


Votecount 5.0

Not Voting (5): WitchHunt [737], Azrael [737], Stardust [737], Dechs Kaison [737], rcwraspy [737]

With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch

-----

[Azrael]

RCW, right?

[Dechs Kaison]

Ugh. I guess.

[Dechs Kaison]

It still doesn't feel right. I think he's coming from the right mindset.

[Stardust]

He's the only one. Everyone else is town.

Vote rcwraspy.

[rcwraspy]

vote Stardust

I should be the last resort lynch, not the why not lynch. I'm a known quantity.

[rcwraspy]

He's the only one. Everyone else is town

This is just so wrong. Azrael is the only confirmed town.

[Stardust]

WitchHunt is town for two reasons. I didn't realise until after we'd lynched Red, but Red being a Lover proves that WitchHunt is not. He's 100% town unless you believe that his cc was fake.

[Dechs Kaison]

vote Stardust

I should be the last resort lynch, not the why not lynch. I'm a known quantity.

I can't really argue with this logic. If RCW is our last threat, he's not really a threat until there's three people left and we decide to lynch someone else.

He cannot win unless he's a vigilante and we don't lynch him when there's four of us.

[rcwraspy]

Stardust, I feel like you're just not thinking about this from a townie's mindset. Which makes you the best lynch.

Let's say for argument's sake that you're town. I know I'm town, and Azrael was mod-confirmed. Out of the 5, let's just assume those are the 3 town and Dechs and WitchHunt, however implausible you think, are non-town. Lynch me and it's 2-2. If Dechs and Witch are the same faction then town loses. If they're not there's still a chance.

Now, the same math certainly applies if we lynch you and you're town. But I really don't think you're town.

Let's assume that I'm the only threat to town, and that it's 4 town 1 non-town. You have 2 mislynches to get me. Since you know I'm neutered whether I'm town or not there's practically no downside to this.

You've convinced me fairly well that both Witch and Dechs are town, although neither are really "confirmed." But you've been a huge question mark all game long.

[rcwraspy]

Azrael, are you saying you have a daykill? Obviously I have no problem with you shooting rcw, though I'm surprised that you'd decide to go for that.

Az, please answer this. If you do have a daykill, I'd like to see it resolved like a second lynch, i.e. three people voting someone and you cast the "final vote."

I will not be using a daykill today.

If you do have one, now might be the time to use it. Kill your #1 suspect, if that person flips town you have a lynch left without going to night.

[Dechs Kaison]

He's an innocent child. That was his role. He has no daykill.

[rcwraspy]

Oh, must have missed that. I just saw rez saying he was town, didn't see the role confirmation.

[rcwraspy]

bah nvm. Just read innocent child. all makes sense now.

[Dechs Kaison]

By the way, I'm back from my Limited Access. It is almost midnight, though, so any talking I do will be in a few hours.

[Stardust]

I am thinking of this from a townie mindset. Everything is different because there is no nightkill. We have two 100% confirmed townies. I also strongly strongly believe that Dechs is town. Unlike in a normal game, these three townies will win the game no matter what.

Also, something I just realised, all of that is far more confirmed than your Ninja role claim.

I fully realise that I will be lynched if you flip town. Tell me, what do I stand to gain from living just one more Day? What alignment could I possibly be that would pose any real threat?

[Azrael]

I am thinking of this from a townie mindset. Everything is different because there is no nightkill. We have two 100% confirmed townies. I also strongly strongly believe that Dechs is town. Unlike in a normal game, these three townies will win the game no matter what.

Also, something I just realised, all of that is far more confirmed than your Ninja role claim.

I fully realise that I will be lynched if you flip town. Tell me, what do I stand to gain from living just one more Day? What alignment could I possibly be that would pose any real threat?

Cult.

[Azrael]

Is Saulus is an ability, correct? So RCW could not possibly have anything up his sleeve to enable him to stealth surprise win, other than another neutral/hostile player cooperating with him?

[Dechs Kaison]

It's possible that he's a one shot vigilante or something.

[Dechs Kaison]

Saulus or Judas is an alignment. He got to choose an ability to go with that. Nothing in the cards says that he loses the ability when lynched, just that his alignment changes.

[Dechs Kaison]

Possible cards that RCW could have used to get a power that can jeopardize a town win:

Town 1-Shot Vigilante (1 card)
Town 1-Shot Day Vigilante (2 cards)
Mafia 1-Shot Day Vigilante (1 card)

Unless I'm missing something, those powers are the only way he could pull a win out of his sleeve. He'd need to do it when there are only two other players left to pull out his scum win if he's a Judas. With five or even four of us alive, I don't see how it's even possible for him to win.

Aside from the fact that I just believe RCW when he's telling me he's town, I have to agree with his logic. He should be our last resort lynch.

[Azrael]

Alright, let's leave no stone unturned. We've been clearing Dechs based on behavior so far. Should we?

[Dechs Kaison]

Alright, let's leave no stone unturned. We've been clearing Dechs based on behavior so far. Should we?

Of course not. That's what RCW was trying to tell you guys at the end of the Day and that's a good portion of why I'm still convinced he's town. I'm probably his strongest supporter right now and he's telling you to look into me. He's not trying to buddy with me at all.

Az is the only confirmed Town. Innocent Child and all that.
WitchHunt, barring insane gambit and astronomical probabilities, is also Town. His counterclaim wasn't refuted at all. He had the Town Cop/Lover card. He also had the Paranoid card and it worked, killing Imopen. Imopen was a Lover, so if WitchHunt hadn't taken the alignment from his Cop/Lover card, then he'd be dead right now, too.

Then look at me. I don't understand what in my behavior has you so convinced I'm Town. I think I'm getting a lot better at this game, but I'm still learning. What I see as the best reason to think I'm Town is the Mafia Roleblocker card I discarded. That would have been a great role for an anti-town player to have.

Stardust gave me an even better defense with the whole "If I'm not town, then what am I?" line of logic. If he were scum, he'd be killing people. He wouldn't choose Alien over Mafia because it's strictly worse. You've heard this all before and it applies to me, too. The problem is that it's actually WIFOM. I pointed out the intentional handicap play; I use this technique when I play Legacy because I'm playing a mono black list out of no where. It catches people off guard and it works, even if it's not a top tier deck.

This is where I should tell you to look at behavior. Stardust and I have the exact same logical reasons to say "I'm Town, hang somebody else." Stardust is pushing an agenda, though. Let me point it out.

Stardust had the fast hammer on RCW.
Stardust had to know someone would target him because they didn't believe him. His Black Goo ability turned Ham cult and gave us another Town player that we had to hang.
Despite how hard he's been pushing on RCW, he was happy to hang Red.
You remember how sure Stardust was that Imopen was Town? It was Stardust's plan that killed Imopen.

I think he's narrowing down the field. I don't know what he plans to do when it's just you, me, him and Witch, but I know he has more options than RCW does if we're wrong about him.

[Stardust]

Hang me, it doesn't matter. My role is confirmed and no alignment is more dangerous here than the possibility of rcw's vig shot (Cult is very safe for you guys, Az). But we still have three town after I die so I still don't care.