Greatest Idea Mafia *** Game Over ***

[Azrael]

Azrael, explain to me how it's possible that WitchHunt is not town. Do you think he chose Cop/Lover as his ability? Do you think he targeted me at some point?

Do we have another confirmed lover that precludes him taking cop/lover as ability?

[Stardust]

RedNihilist.

[WitchHunt]

Now I think that it would be a good time to claim being Lover.
Just for the sake of it.
Is anybody else in love with me?

Say there is an Alien faction with one NK, or a faction that has a NK that hasn't been using it, wouldn't claiming be the absolute worse thing the lovers could ever possibly do?

You're right, but I actually wanted to bait some false claim.
I'm 100% sure that, provided there's any other Lover out there, he wouldn't claim at this point of the game.

I get it. You chose a Lover ability, but since there are no other Lovers, you were reverted to Vanilla. Anyone who claimed Lover must have been lying.

Am I close?

I don't see where it states they revert to Vanilla, is this traditionally how Lovers work? Can anyone confirm or deny this?

[Dechs Kaison]

I thought I read that... But now I can't find anything about it.

[RedNihilist]

You've got it wrong, I'm a Lover and I've never received a PM telling me I'm Vanilla or the only Lover around.
It's just that if you're the only Lover in the game it's like not being a Lover at all.

[RedNihilist]

Yeah, this is actually interesting.
Are you trying to move the aim towards me just for the sake of it or do you just like to lynch your null reads?

It's day 4 and I've got no pro-town evidence on you. Everybody else has got *some* reason not to lynch them today.

Stardust's defense is based on his love of being town plus the cards he discarded.
Witch Hunt I could see lynching, but he actually talks enough for me to get a better read on him potentially.
Imopen is reading town. I'm not sure I like his role-claim, and it might be a false positive, but it's not something I want to pursue.
Dechs is reading hard town.
RCW is reading Saulus.

Process of elimination.

I also guess that you're acting like this on your own, it's not like you suddenly felt the need to show how active you are, right?
Tell me more of this Saulus read you've got on RCW.

Throws mud, makes someone else do the work.

I've pointed out that, as soon as A LITTLE pressure as been put on him, he needed to find a random target in order to prove his being active.
"Yeah, I've got nothing on you, but since I've got to vote someone and I wouldn't vote the other people here but I can't not vote anyone because OHMYGOD STARDUST IS ON ME I think I'll just vote you".

Sentence 2: I'd REALLY like to hear how somebody can have a "Saulus read" on someone else.

[RedNihilist]

I'm not hanging RCW. It doesn't feel right and after Lego I'm trusting my gut when it tells me not to lynch someone.

He's at L-1, you can do it without me if you really want.

I've got no time to do a PBPA because I'm leaving for a tournament today, but reread rcw's behaviour today: his early vote on himself is really a (still soft) scum tell because he wants to prove he doesn't mind dying, but this feat disappeared now.

I'm sorry to have failed following up with my thoughts on the situation (I just forgot to do so) but the truth is that I just felt uneasy on rollin' down on the no-discussion-let's-just-lynch-people train that we were following, and I'm actually happy we managed to came up with some discussion before going on with the day.

Still, I feel like rcw is acting sleazy and he's the one I'd prefer to have lynched.

[imopen2]

Unvote

For discussion's sake

[Azrael]

Sentence 2: I'd REALLY like to hear how somebody can have a "Saulus read" on someone else.

I read him as scum yesterday and more townish today. If he were a Judas instead, I'd expect that to flip around.

[Dechs Kaison]

Took me a while to get to this. I don't have much time on my weekends (Friday-Saturday) and I'm limited to my phone. Back to work and at a computer today.

Dechs, who do you want to lynch? Me still?

I'd still rather lynch you than RCW. I really want to believe you, Stardust, but then you do stuff like this little exchange:

rcw, can you give us a town/scum list? So far today you've been up for lynching imopen, me, WitchHunt and now RedNihilist.

Is this a little misinformation tactic? I've never voted WitchHunt or Red, and never overtly called either one of them scum.

Saying you were "up for lynching" them was maybe a bit strong, but the fact that you've been a bit jumpy today, moving to whatever wagon at the time, caught my eye. I like this latest post of yours though. Feels townie and your reasoning is good, even if there's not much concrete there.[/quote]
You have to see how this is making me uncomfortable. You did misrepresent RCW. Then you backpedaled all over it with the justification that he'd been jumpy, moving to whatever wagon. He's voted for two people today (not counting the self vote). That's hardly being jumpy. I've voted for two different people today. Am I suddenly "up for lynching" everyone?

Then you give him the "I like this" but you have to throw the caveat that "there's not much concrete there."

It's the classic double speak of a scummy player, someone without town interest at heart. You're trying to appease everyone. Again, I really want to believe you, Stardust. A lot of what you're saying in defense of yourself makes sense. You're just acting off for a town player.

You know, there's another option we haven't been considering that does fit with your tactics. Survivor. That's not really anti-town unless you think an anti-town team has a good shot at winning. You would just want the game over without getting lynched and without getting night killed (which Black Goo would prevent).

[Dechs Kaison]

I've got no time to do a PBPA because I'm leaving for a tournament today, but reread rcw's behaviour today: his early vote on himself is really a (still soft) scum tell because he wants to prove he doesn't mind dying, but this feat disappeared now.

That's not at all how I read it. Let's go back to the beginning of the day. He voted himself pretty early, was at two votes, then both you and I came into the thread saying we'd rather not lynch him. He unvoted when he thought we were actually going to discuss it first.

Stardust put a vote on him and then he voted himself again. That put him at L-1. If it were only the L-2 self vote, I could see it being scummy. But he went and opened himself to hammer.

It doesn't read like a scum play. It's someone who is that bloody frustrated with how his lynch was set up from the day before.

---------

I am glad you made me re-read, though. Because I found this again:

That being said, witchhunt, why would I block Jaime if I'm scum?

I made a comment on it right after he posted this. I said it was obvious, but since the question was directed, I'd let the askee answer before I did. Well, WitchHunt said his piece but I think we all forgot about the question by now, which I think was Imopen's hope from the start.

1. Why direct the question at WitchHunt? I was the one making the case.
2. Why even ask the question to begin with? It's obvious why you'd block someone whom you knew could kill you.

You direct the question at a single person if you don't want too many people answering it. You just want people to think about it, and not put any good answers on the table.
You don't ask that question if you blocked the dude for town motivated reasons. You ask this kind of question if you're trying to milk the town cred.

My first case on Imopen was behavioral. Lots of double speak and actions that countered what he was saying.
My second case on Imopen was the wasted cop when he could have spared/confirmed RCW.

After each of those cases, I found someone else to go after. Both times Imopen quoted my new case and said "Dechs is town." That's a damning pattern all by itself. He's trying to buddy up to me or something here.

So, third time's a charm. Put all this shit together.

Vote Imopen

[Azrael]

Intention to kill: RCWraspy

MIght as well go with the 50-50 shot I guess. *shrugs*

PPE: *thinks really hard* Eh...

There are no good tells in this game and I hate it.

[Dechs Kaison]

RCW's only at 2 votes, by the way. You'd only be putting him back to L-1.

[imopen2]

Took me a while to get to this. I don't have much time on my weekends (Friday-Saturday) and I'm limited to my phone. Back to work and at a computer today.

Dechs, who do you want to lynch? Me still?

I'd still rather lynch you than RCW. I really want to believe you, Stardust, but then you do stuff like this little exchange:

rcw, can you give us a town/scum list? So far today you've been up for lynching imopen, me, WitchHunt and now RedNihilist.

Is this a little misinformation tactic? I've never voted WitchHunt or Red, and never overtly called either one of them scum.

Saying you were "up for lynching" them was maybe a bit strong, but the fact that you've been a bit jumpy today, moving to whatever wagon at the time, caught my eye. I like this latest post of yours though. Feels townie and your reasoning is good, even if there's not much concrete there.

You have to see how this is making me uncomfortable. You did misrepresent RCW. Then you backpedaled all over it with the justification that he'd been jumpy, moving to whatever wagon. He's voted for two people today (not counting the self vote). That's hardly being jumpy. I've voted for two different people today. Am I suddenly "up for lynching" everyone?

Then you give him the "I like this" but you have to throw the caveat that "there's not much concrete there."

It's the classic double speak of a scummy player, someone without town interest at heart. You're trying to appease everyone. Again, I really want to believe you, Stardust. A lot of what you're saying in defense of yourself makes sense. You're just acting off for a town player.

You know, there's another option we haven't been considering that does fit with your tactics. Survivor. That's not really anti-town unless you think an anti-town team has a good shot at winning. You would just want the game over without getting lynched and without getting night killed (which Black Goo would prevent).[/quote]

yup, dechs is town.

[imopen2]

is it scummy for a town player to figure out that another player is also a townie and then say as much in order to explain why they don't ever vote that person?

you make good points and i am pretty positive you're town. you are, however, misguided about me.

if you look at my question to witchhunt in context, you'll see that i was responding to his last post (from the previous page)

Cultists don't have a QT so I don't feel like there's really any kind of threat there. So Stardust being a oneshot recruiter for cultist makes no sense to me anymore since Ham had no real reason to sacrifice himself, so he's town in my book. Az has been super strong town for me, as has Dechs. I'm town, so that means I'm looking at imopen2, raspy, and Red. I'm going to look at doing a more thorough read through before I vote toDay though.

With the lack of nightkills, it feels like Jaime was probably the only one with one and we blocked him, so I'm not sure there's a mafia team at all really.

Emphasis is mine.

look at that post. he says that he is looking into me, and yet later in the post he uses the term "we" to discuss jaime's roleblock. So...he believes me when i say i blocked jaime, but he also thinks i'm scum? it just didn't make much sense to me, and while you felt the answer was obvious, i wanted to see how witchhunt would react.

[WitchHunt]

I posted my thoughts on why you did it, even an opposing faction scum JoAT could've gotten some town cred, it didn't necessarily have to be lyncher.

Yup, at this point of the game I'm just worse than a Town Vanilla, so I decided to claim my loverness in order to try to bait fake claims from people that wanted to avoid being lynched.

Am I the only one who finds this sketchy? How would he bait a false claim if he has no idea who is or isn't a lover.

[rcwraspy]

Since all Lovers die at the same time they'd want to get known so town doesn't vote one lover and potentially lose 2 players. Dangerous though since it's a role (alignment unknown) and a targeted kill after the claim can wreak havoc. I'm also not sure why anybody would choose it, unless it's attached to Cop from the Town Cop/Lover card.

[RedNihilist]

I posted my thoughts on why you did it, even an opposing faction scum JoAT could've gotten some town cred, it didn't necessarily have to be lyncher.

Yup, at this point of the game I'm just worse than a Town Vanilla, so I decided to claim my loverness in order to try to bait fake claims from people that wanted to avoid being lynched.

Am I the only one who finds this sketchy? How would he bait a false claim if he has no idea who is or isn't a lover.

Except that people claimed most of the cards already (they're numbered), so it would be a risky claim, but some scum could have tried to jump on the Lover train in order to deter other people from voting them.

[RedNihilist]

Since all Lovers die at the same time they'd want to get known so town doesn't vote one lover and potentially lose 2 players. Dangerous though since it's a role (alignment unknown) and a targeted kill after the claim can wreak havoc. I'm also not sure why anybody would choose it, unless it's attached to Cop from the Town Cop/Lover card.

Said the guy who claimed Saulus
Or that other guy, whatevs.

[Stardust]

Are you implying that you did choose just Lover as an ability? I assumed you had picked the Lover... Roleblocker? Is that right? Anyway, there was one Lover/ability card other than the Lover/Cop. If you are claiming to have taken just a lover, I do find that suspicious.

Azrael, are you saying you have a daykill? Obviously I have no problem with you shooting rcw, though I'm surprised that you'd decide to go for that.

[Dechs Kaison]

Since all Lovers die at the same time they'd want to get known so town doesn't vote one lover and potentially lose 2 players. Dangerous though since it's a role (alignment unknown) and a targeted kill after the claim can wreak havoc. I'm also not sure why anybody would choose it, unless it's attached to Cop from the Town Cop/Lover card.

Said the guy who claimed Saulus
Or that other guy, whatevs.

His options were Mafia, Werewolf, or Saulus. From his claim, he went with the most town option he had available.

You, however, appear to have chosen "Lover" over "Conspiracy Theorist" at the very least. They are both downsides, but one at least comes with a possibly useful ability. Were you that averse to being tentacled?

Now, there are three options for cards that do cool stuff but happen to come with Lover attached. Cop/Lover out of that is already claimed. Did you choose one of these two?

[RedNihilist]

Are you implying that you did choose just Lover as an ability? I assumed you had picked the Lover... Roleblocker? Is that right? Anyway, there was one Lover/ability card other than the Lover/Cop. If you are claiming to have taken just a lover, I do find that suspicious.

Azrael, are you saying you have a daykill? Obviously I have no problem with you shooting rcw, though I'm surprised that you'd decide to go for that.

I'm saying that I'm a Lover, that's that

[RedNihilist]

Since all Lovers die at the same time they'd want to get known so town doesn't vote one lover and potentially lose 2 players. Dangerous though since it's a role (alignment unknown) and a targeted kill after the claim can wreak havoc. I'm also not sure why anybody would choose it, unless it's attached to Cop from the Town Cop/Lover card.

Said the guy who claimed Saulus
Or that other guy, whatevs.

His options were Mafia, Werewolf, or Saulus. From his claim, he went with the most town option he had available.

How convenient.

You, however, appear to have chosen "Lover" over "Conspiracy Theorist" at the very least. They are both downsides, but one at least comes with a possibly useful ability. Were you that averse to being tentacled?

Aliens come with a NK over the whole game, who's the idiot who chooses to be an Alien given other options?
(I hereby apologize to any Alien player in this game, of course)

Just for the sake of random claiming, I've discarded Town Conspiracy Theorist while using Town Private Investigator for my alignment, because I also felt that there was no way that role could have useful either (that's the reason why I've found Stardust's claim that funny).

Now, there are three options for cards that do cool stuff but happen to come with Lover attached. Cop/Lover out of that is already claimed. Did you choose one of these two?

You're delving into the issue too much.
I've tried the Lover route because I felt it could make the game more interesting letting me come up with some shenanigans with myself dying and counterclaiming people and that's that.
I know that means we're open to be 2-for-1ed, but at this point of the game it seems pretty clear that there is no NK available to our opponents

[Dechs Kaison]

Yup, at this point of the game I'm just worse than a Town Vanilla, so I decided to claim my loverness in order to try to bait fake claims from people that wanted to avoid being lynched.

Am I the only one who finds this sketchy? How would he bait a false claim if he has no idea who is or isn't a lover.

This is an extremely valid question.

Red, you said you didn't get any information from the Mod that you're the only Lover. How would you know that a claim is a false claim?

[Dechs Kaison]

Azrael, are you saying you have a daykill? Obviously I have no problem with you shooting rcw, though I'm surprised that you'd decide to go for that.

Az, please answer this. If you do have a daykill, I'd like to see it resolved like a second lynch, i.e. three people voting someone and you cast the "final vote."

[Dechs Kaison]

Limited Access: I will be spending the next few days on vacation as I move my family into our new apartment in this country. I will not have my computer available until this Saturday at 9:00PM GST (Noon, EST). I will have my phone with me and have periodic access to the internet. I'll keep up with the thread and I will change my vote if I find any arguments compelling. Do not expect me to make the usual lengthy posts. I'll be happy to explain everything and answer questions once I get back to my computer.

I will be available for the next hour from the time of this post.

[RedNihilist]

Yup, at this point of the game I'm just worse than a Town Vanilla, so I decided to claim my loverness in order to try to bait fake claims from people that wanted to avoid being lynched.

Am I the only one who finds this sketchy? How would he bait a false claim if he has no idea who is or isn't a lover.

This is an extremely valid question.

Red, you said you didn't get any information from the Mod that you're the only Lover. How would you know that a claim is a false claim?

... because my death, or the claimer's, would uncover the truth. I think that's pretty easy o_o;;

[RedNihilist]

I missed post 666

[Azrael]

Azrael, are you saying you have a daykill? Obviously I have no problem with you shooting rcw, though I'm surprised that you'd decide to go for that.

Az, please answer this. If you do have a daykill, I'd like to see it resolved like a second lynch, i.e. three people voting someone and you cast the "final vote."

I will not be using a daykill today.

[Azrael]

Or ever, this game.

[Stardust]

Saying you were "up for lynching" them was maybe a bit strong, but the fact that you've been a bit jumpy today, moving to whatever wagon at the time, caught my eye. I like this latest post of yours though. Feels townie and your reasoning is good, even if there's not much concrete there.

You have to see how this is making me uncomfortable. You did misrepresent RCW. Then you backpedaled all over it with the justification that he'd been jumpy, moving to whatever wagon. He's voted for two people today (not counting the self vote). That's hardly being jumpy. I've voted for two different people today. Am I suddenly "up for lynching" everyone?

Then you give him the "I like this" but you have to throw the caveat that "there's not much concrete there."

A recap of rcw's moves today goes like this: rcw votes for himself, then he unvotes. Then he attacks WitchHunt. Then he votes himself again. Then imopen gets some attention and he votes imopen. Then I get some attention and he votes for me. So far nothing too fishy since we had been his suspects before, though I didn't like his posts on WitchHunt. Then RedNihilist gets some attention and he replies with "I like this". Three different times he's switched opinion (if not vote) to the leading wagon - four if you count himself.

Comparing you to him, there's a stark difference. You started the imopen wagon. Then you (almost) started my wagon. I'm surprised you can't see the pattern in rcw that caught my eye.

Also, I am not a Survivor. I would never choose to be a Survivor since it's boring and more difficult for me than most. Any game that I am a Surivivor you can guarantee that I'll be claiming that early in Day 1.

Stardust put a vote on him and then he voted himself again. That put him at L-1. If it were only the L-2 self vote, I could see it being scummy. But he went and opened himself to hammer.

It doesn't read like a scum play. It's someone who is that bloody frustrated with how his lynch was set up from the day before.

Scum self-vote more than town do. Anyway, put yourself in rcw's shoes. Putting himself to L-1 is a worthwhile risk if it causes people to believe that he's town. He probably had the thought that if he hadn't taken that risk, he was dead anyway. You don't have to take the self-vote to mean he's scum, but it certainly doesn't mean he's town.

There are no good tells in this game and I hate it.

So you understand now?

Said the guy who claimed Saulus
Or that other guy, whatevs.

Not a fan of this response. I also feel like you just don't care, which probably means you're town. Meh.

[rcwraspy]

I voted myself because I kept thinking nothing would progress today. When there are no good scumspects then the guy who is obviously 50/50 needs to go.

But since then there has been a lot of activity, with both Stardust and RedNihilist sounding more scummy with every post.

I don't want to get lynched again but if it's the only thing for town to do then it's fine. But it's not the only thing anymore, imo.

[Azrael]

*puzzled*

I feel like I'm not going to get anywhere without another reread.

[Azrael]

Ok, rereading the game looking for neutral-specific tells.

#19 from witchhunt has that indecisiveness tell that I pointed out earlier, which would make a fair bit of sense from a neutral.

#38 from Red sounds like the kind of detail that's unlikely to be falsified.

#41 from Red sounds pretty real, too.

Dechs really wants Stardust dead, early on.

Imopen's first post leaves me pretty unimpressed, doesn't contribute jack despite their being plenty of activity going on. His first caught-up post 105 is much better, though.

The way WH writes this post bothers me:

I'm counter claiming, I didn't have Town Lover, I had Town Cop/Lover as my card. I realize a Cop is a reasonably powerful role, and the reason I didn't pick it as my card was because there were so many factions besides Mafia and when doubled with the Lover portion of the card I didn't feel too keen on it.

I'm okay with revealing my previous sketchy claim simply because the counter claim profit is too strong.

Vote: Jamie

I'm in it for the town. If this backfires and I get lynched or NKed, you'll know to take out Jamie next.

He seems too nervous about justifying why he didn't pick cop, and then he takes the time to say that "he's in it for the town". Why would that phrase occur to him at precisely that moment? It seems most likely to come from someone who had a choice of how to play this, and chose to go with the pro-town action. See also my analysis in post 295.

Vote WitchHunt.

I'm going with my original theory of this game: Witchhunt, Jamie, and RCWraspy were scum-aligned. WH is the last one we should need to eliminate, if so.

In order of townieness to scummitude:

Az
Dechs
Imopen
Red

Stardust
RCW
WH

[WitchHunt]

Az, all I have to say to that is lol. Last game I played I got NKed night one for being too town, I tried to keep my early play away from that.

Yup, at this point of the game I'm just worse than a Town Vanilla, so I decided to claim my loverness in order to try to bait fake claims from people that wanted to avoid being lynched.

Am I the only one who finds this sketchy? How would he bait a false claim if he has no idea who is or isn't a lover.

This is an extremely valid question.

Red, you said you didn't get any information from the Mod that you're the only Lover. How would you know that a claim is a false claim?

... because my death, or the claimer's, would uncover the truth. I think that's pretty easy o_o;;

I feel like this is not the right time in the game for Lovers to reveal themselves. Preventing a lynch is one thing, because then a doctor can keep him in the clear. I feel like all this would do right now is paint a huge ass target that screams "Two for one or better" for anyone with a NK. I don't like it.

Vote: RedNihilist

[RedNihilist]

Nightkills? LOL

[Stardust]

Fuck this game. We should mass claim. There's basically no downside and we're in sore need of some more concrete information since no one apparently wants to just start lynching people. WitchHunt, you go first, followed by RedNihilist, followed by Azrael. That should be everyone.

Dechs, there's logic to my list, but you can rearrage it if that makes people more comfortable.

[Dechs Kaison]

No objections.

[RedNihilist]

Fuck this game. We should mass claim. There's basically no downside and we're in sore need of some more concrete information since no one apparently wants to just start lynching people. WitchHunt, you go first, followed by RedNihilist, followed by Azrael. That should be everyone.

Dechs, there's logic to my list, but you can rearrage it if that makes people more comfortable.

Should I claim HARDER?

[Stardust]

Are you just a lover and nothing else?