Primer: Mardu Midrange

[LP, of the Fires]

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion.

Realistically, the only awkward decision was cutting a cheap removal spell from the main for an utter end, and even that's fine since most of the decks are getting even more midrangy.

You can look at the Gryffs in his board kinda askance, but they make a fine substitute for rabble in certain matchups and are gonna be more likely to induce blowouts since it's a card not commonly seen out of mardu.

He's playing literally 72/75 of everyone elses mardu deck because there's so little variation in the archetype.

[Mcdonalds]

Just played an 8-man and won the finals against Shaheen Soorani. Was chatting with him after the match: He said he beat Mardu Midrange 3 times at the open and thought it was a very good matchup for him (apptly he's got some new SB tech to make the matchup even better...)

EDIT: Semifinals was vs. Brad Nelson's new 4-colour midrange. Not really convinced about that deck but I can see how it may have an edge over some of the other midrange decks

What deck was Soorani on?

Esper the answer is always esper

[LP, of the Fires]

The man actually plays Esper control in every format.

[DXI-Edge]

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion.

Realistically, the only awkward decision was cutting a cheap removal spell from the main for an utter end, and even that's fine since most of the decks are getting even more midrangy.

You can look at the Gryffs in his board kinda askance, but they make a fine substitute for rabble in certain matchups and are gonna be more likely to induce blowouts since it's a card not commonly seen out of mardu.

He's playing literally 72/75 of everyone elses mardu deck because there's so little variation in the archetype.

There is little variation because people refuse to change a list that Brad Nelson Top 8'd at GP LA, even though it needs to be changed.

I understand he won the GP, but that's because Mardu is incredible right now. His sideboard is God awful, and the main deck needs to be updated.

I understand the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality, but that list is honestly broke, even if it won the GP.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Forgive me if I ignore your post.

[Jasper]

Scrumped out of GP San Antonio with my GR Aggro list. Played against a bunch of rogue shit. Super Sunday, i played against Mardu 6 of the 8 rounds. 1 round was no opponent, another was Boss Sligh.

Mardu, Mardu everywhere...

[Lightning_Dolt]

So you'd say it was a good choice for the weekend, or no?

[Bananasack]

This is the list I'm taking to the SCG Open in Portland this week and a PTQ the weekend after

[deck]
4 Butcher of the Horde
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Seeker of the Way

4 Lightning Strike
4 Crackling Doom
4 Hordeling Outburst
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Magma Jet
1 Murderous Cut

2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

4 Nomad Outpost
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Temple of Triumph
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Temple of Silence
6 Mountain
1 Swamp

3 Anger of the Gods
3 Read the Bones
2 Utter End
2 End Hostilities
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Chandra Pyromaster
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
[/deck]

I might cut a Seeker for a Roc but I'm not sure yet. I also kind of want to try at least 2-3 Thoughtseize in the board.

[Aodh]

So you swapped 2 Dragon for 2 Magma Jet to make AIR/MBA game one better and 1 Anger of the Gods for 1 Utter End for premium removal in the mirror (at a premium)?

Doesn't seem bad.

Also, how do we break the metagame now? Other than being better or playing UB(w) control and dodging AIR/MBA rounds 1-2, how do we actually give ourselves an edge in the mirror.

And finally I may be short 1 Erase and 1 Elspeth this evening. Are Glare of Heresy and Resolute Archangel suitable replacements? Is the second Elspeth there to lock out aggro, break the mirror, or 2-for-1 against control?

[DXI-Edge]

Forgive me if I ignore your post.

Wow I'm sorry. I'm saying something different, is that not ok?

[Bananasack]

So you swapped 2 Dragon for 2 Magma Jet to make AIR/MBA game one better and 1 Anger of the Gods for 1 Utter End for premium removal in the mirror (at a premium)?

Doesn't seem bad.

Also, how do we break the metagame now? Other than being better or playing UB(w) control and dodging AIR/MBA rounds 1-2, how do we actually give ourselves an edge in the mirror.

And finally I may be short 1 Erase and 1 Elspeth this evening. Are Glare of Heresy and Resolute Archangel suitable replacements? Is the second Elspeth there to lock out aggro, break the mirror, or 2-for-1 against control?

I mainly bring in Elspeth against the Mirror,Abzan,Control,etc so it's pretty relevant IMO. I think Glare v.s. Erase is personal preference. I'm on the Glare plan because it's good against a lot of decks right now.

[Lightning_Dolt]

This is the list I'm taking to the SCG Open in Portland this week and a PTQ the weekend after

[deck]
4 Butcher of the Horde
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Seeker of the Way

4 Lightning Strike
4 Crackling Doom
4 Hordeling Outburst
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Magma Jet
1 Murderous Cut

2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

4 Nomad Outpost
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Temple of Triumph
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Temple of Silence
6 Mountain
1 Swamp

3 Anger of the Gods
3 Read the Bones
2 Utter End
2 End Hostilities
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Chandra Pyromaster
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
[/deck]

I might cut a Seeker for a Roc but I'm not sure yet. I also kind of want to try at least 2-3 Thoughtseize in the board.

Only like 2 cards off stock, so should be fine.

[Jasper]

So you'd say it was a good choice for the weekend, or no?

I'd say so, as long as you had a plan to bust open the mirror. My buddy Chris Top 8'ed Super Sunday with Mardu Mid.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Forgive me if I ignore your post.

Wow I'm sorry. I'm saying something different, is that not ok?

You can say whatever you like, but I can also disregard it when your argument is "Won the GP, beating thousands players at the highest non-invitation level of Magic there is; deck is shit".

[Lightning_Dolt]

So you'd say it was a good choice for the weekend, or no?

I'd say so, as long as you had a plan to bust open the mirror. My buddy Chris Top 8'ed Super Sunday with Mardu Mid.

Beat them with superior skill? Seriously though, mirror breaking tech might be worth discussing.

[Christen]

I think I should start retesting Mardu Charm with this meta even if it feels awkward.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I think I should start retesting Mardu Charm with this meta even if it feels awkward.

The card is bad. All three modes should cost less than three. The versatility isn't worth it.

[Aodh]

I think the Flame Slash mode is perfectly costed, Raise the Alarm about half a mana too expensive, and Duress 1 mana too expensive. So, all things consider, I think it's well-designed. Probably just not in the right card pool.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Flame Slash, Duress, Raise the Alarm.

1 cc (2 cc for instant), 1 cc (2 cc for instant), 2 cc (3 cc for first strike, I guess )

None of the modes offer a good rate.

Compare to Jeskai Charm:

Flames of the Blood Hand (slightly worse, but close) 3cc, Griptide (4cc), Better part of a Stir the Pride (definitely worth 3cc or more.)

[DXI-Edge]

Forgive me if I ignore your post.

Wow I'm sorry. I'm saying something different, is that not ok?

You can say whatever you like, but I can also disregard it when your argument is "Won the GP, beating thousands players at the highest non-invitation level of Magic there is; deck is shit".

I'm not saying it's shit. It's not well built. It's outdated. Needs to be updated.

[Jasper]

I think I should start retesting Mardu Charm with this meta even if it feels awkward.

If it somehow was able to hit Stormbreath Dragon, it might be playable. If it dealt 5 damage, it would definitely be playable. As it is, it's just not quite good enough. Hell, if it could go to the face, I'd play it.


List from GP San Ann:

[deck]
LANDS 25
6 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Nomad Outpost
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Temple of Triumph
2 Temple of Silence
2 Caves of Koilos
1 Swamp

CREATURES 12
4 Butcher of the Horde
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Seeker of the Way
1 Wingmate Roc

INSTANTS and SORC. 15
4 Lightning Strike
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Crackling Doom
1 Magma Jet
1 Utter End
1 Murderous Cut

OTHER SPELLS 8
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

SIDEBOARD
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Utter End
1 Glare of Heresy
3 Hushwing Gryff
3 Thoughtseize
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Read the Bones
1 End Hostilities
[/deck]

[LP, of the Fires]

Forgive me if I ignore your post.

Wow I'm sorry. I'm saying something different, is that not ok?

It's not that your saying something different, it's that you're saying nothing of value. What exactly is wrong with the deck?

It's literally been tearing up tournaments from GPs, to opens, to 50ks. It's powerful and flexible along with being the best Sorin deck. I'd also argue that the sideboard is great, if only because it gives you a massive edge in boarding against the field since you can morph your deck radically and punish your opposition for bringing in the wrong answers.

Sure, you can change the deck however you like(a friend of mine plays a different mardu list every week at the local shop and is one of the best unkown player on the west coast), but the stock list as is has put up dozens of results from elite players and that success has been replicated by randos.

[DXI-Edge]

What elite players? I will tell you right now no pro player will pickup Brads list and say it can't be updated. Yes I understand it's a stock list. Yes it's a good list. BUT IT CAN AND SHOULD BE UPDATED PEOPLE.

you want mirror tech? Stoke and Ashcloud phoenix. You want better game vs control? Chandra Pyromasters main. You want better game vs. aggro? More magma jets. Thoughtseize is not good in this meta, Wingmate Roc is a good card only 50% of the time which makes for a bad card.

Stop throwing me off because I'm saying a stock list that hasn't changed in 2 months should be changed. There's a reason no one posts here it's because you guys shoot down anything new which is why you guys are scrubbing out of events running the same list week in and week out. Yes Mardu does well, but it's a laaaarge portion of the field.

[LP, of the Fires]

Can't tell if trolling or just stupid.

Nowhere did I say you can't change cards. I merely said the deck as has been played isn't bad-which was your stance.

If you look at the TCG player Championship a month or so back, it was the week after GP LA. Brad had LITTERALLY just top 8'd the tourney, then posted an article with the updated list which would've been better. Something like 5 players top 8'd/won that tournament playing combinations of the old list and the updated list including Melissa De Tora and Andrew Baeckstrom(Open ringer and member of the US national team for the WMCQ this year).

I could give less then a shit about how good or bad your changes to your deck are because I'm not debating that. I'm telling you that you're are BLATANTLY wrong/obtuse for suggesting that stock mardu midrange is bad.

Basically of all the wedge lists, the only stock deck I'd say is bad is Jeskai, and that's because it has like, 8-10 flex slots that drastically changes how the deck plays along with needing an agreeable sideboard to keep up with meta week to week as the cards aren't individually powerful enough to brute force wins.

When you play a deck like mardu, the reason the stock list is great is because of the overall power level of the cards. Same thing with Abzan really. So long as you have something close to a reasonable curve and have time to cast your cards, you can just run away with games by playing hordeling outburst into multiple butchers, playing 3 crackling dooms into Elspeth, or caryatid into triple rhino. When you have absurd cards and a malleable sideboard along with 1/2 mana removal spells and access to thoughtseize, it's sometimes you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

[Lightning_Dolt]

LP, droppin that knowledge. I still remember when it was me getting schooled lol.

DXI: if you're going to say the list is shit, needs to be changed etc. please tell us what changes you think need to be made so we can discuss them and have a productive conversation.

I don't know who you think has been scrubbing out, but if that comment was directed at me, I'm still rocking like an 80% win rate and it's my most successful standard season since Shards / Zendikar standard (Rakdos deck wins couldn't lose).

Add something productive to the conversation please.

[dauntless268]

Interesting perspective, LP. Thanks.

[Bananasack]

This is the list I'm taking to the SCG Open in Portland this week and a PTQ the weekend after

[deck]
4 Butcher of the Horde
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Seeker of the Way

4 Lightning Strike
4 Crackling Doom
4 Hordeling Outburst
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Magma Jet
1 Murderous Cut

2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

4 Nomad Outpost
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Temple of Triumph
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Temple of Silence
6 Mountain
1 Swamp

3 Anger of the Gods
3 Read the Bones
2 Utter End
2 End Hostilities
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Chandra Pyromaster
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
[/deck]

I might cut a Seeker for a Roc but I'm not sure yet. I also kind of want to try at least 2-3 Thoughtseize in the board.

Only like 2 cards off stock, so should be fine.

After playing this last night at monday night win a box I agree. I was thinking about Thoughtseize for the control decks but i realized it's not that great w/pain lands.

[Christen]

I think I should start retesting Mardu Charm with this meta even if it feels awkward.

The card is bad. All three modes should cost less than three. The versatility isn't worth it.

Not saying it isn't bad. There just has been a bit of rise of control in the local meta. Maybe just maining Chandra should be good.

[DXI-Edge]

I did. You all ignored it.

Whatever. Im out.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I think I should start retesting Mardu Charm with this meta even if it feels awkward.

The card is bad. All three modes should cost less than three. The versatility isn't worth it.

Not saying it isn't bad. There just has been a bit of rise of control in the local meta. Maybe just maining Chandra should be good.

Chandra is not really maindeckable in my opinion. She's only really good vs control and X/1 decks. She's pretty miserable vs Abzan, Jeskai etc.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I did. You all ignored it.

Whatever. Im out.

All the things you mentioned have been tested to various degrees and discarded. The hivemind doesn't really miss that kind of stuff. The MODO grinders have stuck to the stock list, which means it's pretty good / innovation and moving away from the stock list is actually worse.

Don't get all butthurt because you called a good deck bad and we disagreed. Continue the conversation in productive ways. If you think something is bad, say why and suggest why you think it should change. Maybe even back it up with play testing results.

But when you just say a GP winning list is terrible and carry on like you did, it's hard to take you seriously.

[Aodh]

I think I should start retesting Mardu Charm with this meta even if it feels awkward.

The card is bad. All three modes should cost less than three. The versatility isn't worth it.

Not saying it isn't bad. There just has been a bit of rise of control in the local meta. Maybe just maining Chandra should be good.

Chandra is not really maindeckable in my opinion. She's only really good vs control and X/1 decks. She's pretty miserable vs Abzan, Jeskai etc.

She does make your maindeck ground creatures much better game 1 against Abzan, Jeskai, Gx Monsters, etc.

Rabble -> Chandra is very good against any blocking deck since your Rabble's now done 6 and is set up for 8 the following turn whether or not they attack Chandra.

[Lightning_Dolt]

But is she better than Sorin or Butcher on 4? Not really. 4 slot is already pretty choked.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I don't love Chandra in this deck. Her ultimate doesn't really have good targets like it did last season.

[Aodh]

But is she better than Sorin or Butcher on 4? Not really. 4 slot is already pretty choked.

Maybe not, so you're probably right that she's not maindeckable (because of competition). I was just noting that she's actually really good against the decks you said she's bad against because she makes your other bad mainboard cards better.

[Aodh]

I don't love Chandra in this deck. Her ultimate doesn't really have good targets like it did last season.

Crackling Doom's pretty spicy in the midrange mirror, but I have similar feels. What would you use in her stead?

[Toddington]

I was just noting that she's actually really good against the decks you said she's bad against because she makes your other bad mainboard cards better.

Run more bad cards to make your bad cards better?

[Aodh]

I was just noting that she's actually really good against the decks you said she's bad against because she makes your other bad mainboard cards better.

Run more bad cards to make your bad cards better?

Don't get it twisted; she's not a bad card. She's fine against EVERY deck in the format mainboard, and she's great against control and X/1 decks. Maybe there's not room for her, but she's nothing to be scoffed at.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I wouldn't cut her, she's just a sideboard card.

[Aodh]

I wouldn't cut her, she's just a sideboard card.

I guess; you were just musing about how her ult. doesn't have any good targets in the deck, and she's already in your sideboard, so it seems like you were deliberating a cut.

Also, her ult. is not something we should be striving for in this deck. Just 0 her to draw your powerful cards; that's good enough.