[Primer] UR Delver

[Sasky]

I just red your reddit post. I would like to just add that bogles is not as difficult as you think it is. The trick is to counter their lifelink enchantments, and only those.

If you resolve Blood Moon postboard it also makes the matchup laughable.

[Valdarith]

It's certainly not a favorable matchup and I think that's what he was trying to get across. "Counter the Coronet" is the default strategy, yes, but beyond counterspells the deck is difficult to interact with and it's those types of decks that Delver struggles with.

[rcwraspy]

Like we've collectively discussed, sideboards should reflect your meta; I don't think mine is exemplary of anything.

Agreed. I just don't like threads so was wondering if thought on its inclusion has changed. I don't run it either way.

[zemanjaski]

It's certainly not necessary. I've been experimenting with SB plans that involve siding out Delvers; inspired by Menendian from the vsl, threads works well in that strategy.

[zemanjaski]

Going to try and record modern league finals; will also do a write up if another event this weekend. After that off to worlds!

[Valdarith]

Changed my deck around a bit. I've only played a few matches since KTK became legal, and Modern is pretty much dead at the LGS I've been going to, but I'm about to start going to the LGS closer to me. They have a serious Modern following so I should fit right in. I've tuned my deck to take on an open meta, but I have a feeling Delver, Twin, and Tron are going to be popular based on the limited information I have available.

[deck]
Creatures (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells (30)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Vapor Snag
3 Mana Leak
4 Remand
3 Dig Through Time

Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Flame Slash
1 Electrickery
2 Magma Spray
2 Dispel
1 Shattering Blow
2 Combust
1 Negate
1 Electrolyze
3 Molten Rain
1 Shatterstorm
[/deck]

[Nezeru]

Why is Darkblast a problem? I just wrecked a Dredgevine player rocking Darkblasts, it killed a few creatures, but I just flooded the table and got there through his Darkblast and Gnaw to the Bone tech. G1 I lost because I forgot how Varolz works, and he had Death's Shadow in his graveyard.

[cloudscraper]

I really don't know why I've stopped following these forums after this summer's success with Burn. I think that me being stupid is the most likely candidate.

I have been hating the "all-air" Cruises for sooooo long, and I've been looking for a way to replace that approach while keeping the deck's shell mostly intact. And Swiftspear's been hyper-disappointing for me, too often coming in for 1-damage useless pokes.

Going to try the dig-snap route, and hopefully report.

[zemanjaski]

3-0 Zoo in the semi-final; split final with a SNS teammate.

[Calamity]

What do you guys think about Caleb Durwald's take on UR delver in modern? I personally think he's crazy for running 17 lands with only 6 mana producing lands and no ponder/brainstorm, but he says it's been working well for him

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... nd-modern/

(scroll down he talks about Legacy first)

[Valdarith]

He needs 18 land if he's running three Electrolyze. I also disagree with 0 Remand. It's one of the best cards in the deck in a meta full of Treasure Cruise decks.

[zemanjaski]

I'm so baffled by it I really don't know what to say.

[cloudscraper]

Split in the finals of a small local event (3 fetchlands worth of prize) in preparation for the larger event tomorrow (which I'll be attending) with Zem's latest list... the one with Threads, Burn is surprisingly mildly popular here, while UR delver is quite played.
Yeah, I know, i'm a fanboy

R1: 4c Zoo (pretty good guy, multiple PTQ top8s)

Game 1: he gets off to a start of temple garden - hierarch. Afraid of Pod, I take 3 and bolt it. He reveals himself as something different when he goes Qasali into Smiter. I manage to stabilize the board at 8 life with a flipped Delver, a Pyro and a couple tokens, but I know he has Elspeth Knight-Errant in hand. He finds removal for delver then draws Hierarch, I fail to find any answer and die to the smiter the turn after
Sideboarding: -4 remand, - 2 mana leak, - 1 spell pierce ; +3 magma spray (thought he might also have voice, but they were good because of hierarch, t1 Nacatl, Qasalis and Lavamancers), + 2 Combust, + 2 Threads of Disloyalty
Game 2: I get off to a good start, we both flood out a bit but I recover first (yeah, not many lands, lots of thinning, dig through awesomeness) and get the win after, with me at 9, he's forced to burn one of his two bolts on a Delver of mine. He draws his 3rd bolt the turn after
Game 3: I'm afraid of Choke, so I sneak back in 2 leaks cutting 1 electrolyze and 1 probe. He gets the Hierarch-into-Smiter draw, then follows it up with a Tarmogoyf and three removal spells for my threats. I chump a 5/5 smiter with a token, then magic happens. I Threads his 'Goyf, and the rest of the game is academic
score: 2 - 1 total score: 1-0


R2: GW Hatebears

This matchup seemed a walk in the park.
Game 1: I manage not to draw too many "bad cards" (Remands and Leak) and a good dose of bolts and burst lightnings, and he never finds an answer for either my t1 Delver or my t2 Pyromancer. They spiral out of control very quickly.
Sideboarding: -4 remand, - 2 mana leak, - 1 spell pierce, -1 probe; +3 magma spray (this time he has voices for sure, plus Thalias, Hierarchs,etc), + 2 Combust, + 2 Threads of Disloyalty, +1 Electrickery (wanted to have removal for manadork at all cost, plus it has fairly many targets against his list considering he played also Dryad Militant)
Game 2: he keeps a (questionable, in this matchup) hand with multiple mana dorks but a single temple garden. I burn those out, gain infinite time to do my thing, and Dig twice through victory.
score: 2 - 0 total score: 2-0

R3: Affinity

Game 1: His hand relies on Glimmervoid for mana. I Snare his first Skirge (bye Glimmervoid), then bolt his 2nd turn plays. The game ends very fast.
Sideboarding: -4 remand, . 1 spell pierce, -1 probe; +3 magma spray , + 2 Threads of Disloyalty, +1 Shatterstorm. Keeping leaks in 'cause Choke is a trend in affinity boards here in Rome.
Game 2: He has a pretty good hand this time, on turn 3 he has a Ravager, two Nexii, a Citadel, a Memnite and a 'Thopter against my flipped delver attacking. I have a couple bolts but i'm a bit bottlenecked on red mana. I start Serum-ing and snap-Serum-ing to find either Pyro or Shatterstorm. On the 3rd bottom-bottom Serum I find the latter, and wipe his board the turn after he commits Etched and I probe to check if that suspect blue mana open were to be a Spell Pierce indeed. It wasn't
score: 2 - 0 total score: 3-0


R4: Skred Red

I might draw but decide to play to try and let my teammate sneak in.
Game 1: He has 3 Boros Reckoner, and my hand doesn't contain the card LIGHTNING BOLT. I die.
Sideborrding: -3 Spell Snare, -1 Probe ; +2 dispel, +1 negate, +1 batterskull. I feel like Combusting a Reckoner is a terrible plan and can't convince myself to do it.
Game 2: My hand is good, with pressure, Remand+snap and some lands. I land my Delver on turn 2, he (having mulled to 5) obviously goes to end-step bolt it just to get Dispel'd. The delver does a huge part of the lifting, and some Burn spells to the face end it.
Game 3: I have a hand with multiple remands, a Delver, and a Snap, so I just need to fade the dreaded turn 2 Reckoner with SSG. I hope he sided out Guides in fear of VaporSnag/Remands, and it seems so. He lands a couple Spellbombs, so I sandbag my Delver hoping he'll crack the bombs for action. Missing land drops, he does, so I can go t3 delver+remand, t4 snap-remand, then pyro+remand and he never finds (luckily for me, don't think the matchup is neither great nor good) Volcanic Fallout.
score: 2 - 1 total score: 4-0

I enter the top4 (we were 12, so the cut was a bit confusing between top8 and top4, but it was late night so top4 was preferred) as 1st seed, to face the same pilot as round 2.

Semis: GW Hatebears

Game 1: voice, into voice, into Wilt-Lief Liege, into Wilt-Lief Liege+ wildwood, into "TURN EVERYTHING SIDEWAYS A COUPLE TIMES". And I didn't have a Pyro. I succumb to his enormous forces.
Sideboarding: same as round 2.
Game 2: his draw doesn't feature any big hitter and I don't have any dead draws left in my deck. Everything is either pressure, removal or card advantage. A recipe for easy success.
Game 3: he starts with turn 1 Relic against my hand of double snaps (gahhh). We trade some blows, a Snare, a couple removal spells on both parts, and he's left with a Voice against my board of 1 Pyro token. I have the 2 Snaps in hand, but i'm afraid of one of the huge guys off the top of his deck. They don't appear, but neither does any action for me. I get out of the flood first (again!) with a Serum (top-top) into Electrolyze for his 2 Hierarch into Magma Spray for his Voice.
score: 2-0

I get my 3 fetchlands and feel happier than my last month, about Modern.

I really liked the deck's playstyle. Monastery Delver felt like some deaf aggressive deck, while this list is much more reminiscent of the pre-Cruise era Delver. Much more Aggro-Control, in the sense that lines like turn 3 Delver + Counterspell are the norm, and make me feel all fuzzy. I never felt "at home" with Monastery-Cruise lists.

Regarding Caleb's list, I've tried it a week ago. He's the most extreme aggressive list available, and quite cohesive at that: by virtue of playing ONLY on Mtgo, he skewed his matchups against random decks entirely, and it's probably not a stupid idea, but not one you can apply to RL Magic, where people still play Jund and UWR en force.

I am a bit worried about the matchup against Auras, which is pretty popular here, and the least narrow card I can think of (no Aura Barbs... ) is probably Hibernation...even though I hate devoting sideboard slots to such a HORRIBLE deck

[zemanjaski]

If you're expecting a lot of Burn play some Dragon Claws! My sideboard probably wont suit your meta.

[cloudscraper]

If you're expecting a lot of Burn play some Dragon Claws! My sideboard probably wont suit your meta.

Burn is usually around 5% of a tournament here (We tracked around 15 tournaments in the last month).
I feel like that's a percentage in the range of "don't care, if I face it i'll try to get lucky"

I've played claws previously, ended up never boarding them in... Don't like 11-12 cards Sideboards

[bigmozo]

I've been reading this Thread for several months now, even before Khans. I really appreciate the work of Zem and the other guys here. Im playing Delver since march and the input from here has helped me much more than any other forum. Kudos.

So I was wondering why Zem is playing Burst Lightning over Forked Bolt. I tried the exact 60 of Zem 2 Weeks ago and I wanted to draw Forked bolt nearly every game and NEVER actually wanted Burst Lightning. After exchanging that I got 6th in a 40+ player tournament and was very impressed by DTT. My Meta is pretty mixed with UWR/Pod/Delver/Junk/Hatebears/Burn/Zoo being the most represented.

Besides that, what do we actually do against the current RUG Control lists with Shackles and stuff? I played against that deck in the mentioned 40+ player tournament and got destroyed. It never felt like I really had much of a chance. Tarmogoyf, Huntmaster, Shackles, Forked Bolts, Electrolyze, Counters and after Sideboard Thrun and other stuff. The deck is played by only 2 people in my region (which are both good players and one being a former PT competitor afaik), but I'm most of the time doomed to meet one of them in the later rounds, since we run pretty good most of the time. My SB currently looks like the following:

2 Blood Moon
2 Combust (Sometimes gets exchanged with Flame Slash when I predict to see more Zoo players)
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Batterskull
1 Shatterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives (has been Electrickery before)
3 Magma Spray
1 Spellskite (due to some bogles players mostly and still being decent vs burn and affinity)
2 Dragon's Claw

[cloudscraper]

I have killed multiple Loxodon Smiters with Burst Lightning. It's also better against manlands. And it's very good against Resto Angel, which is a huge problem for a list with 0 Vapor Snags.

[bigmozo]

The overload of Burst Lightning actually always came too late for me or just ran into a counter. Additionally I think the potential of 2for1's with Forked Bolt is incredibly high atm and with a YP on the field a 3for1 is easily possible. I missed the early FB vs. Pod, in the mirror, vs hatebears and vs affinity a lot. Edit: Even against Junk (which is a pretty easy matchup, still great vs Souls or Confidant)

[zemanjaski]

Won a 1K at 8-1, yawn.

[zemanjaski]

I've been reading this Thread for several months now, even before Khans. I really appreciate the work of Zem and the other guys here. Im playing Delver since march and the input from here has helped me much more than any other forum. Kudos.

So I was wondering why Zem is playing Burst Lightning over Forked Bolt.

[zemanjaski]

Better celebrate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imixg3jrJS8

[bigmozo]

I get the benefits of burst lightning, but I was wondering why you would prefer BL over forked bolt in the current meta?

[Valdarith]

Zem really values instant speed spells, perhaps to a fault. He can just bring Electrickery out from the board to compensate.

[rcwraspy]

Currently running this:

[deck]
Creatures - 12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

Sorceries - 13
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Treasure Cruise

Instants - 17
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
2 Electrolyze
2 Spell Snare
2 Vapor Snag

Land - 18
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Island

Sideboard - 15
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Spell Snare
1 Flame Slash
1 Combust
1 Hibernation
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Vandalblast
2 Counterflux
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Spellskite
2 Negate
[/deck]

Haven't had any events to take it to, barring Tuesday night Magic at the shop, where I've elected to play Vintage instead. But me and 5 other decent players had a bit of a gauntlet yesterday and it performed really well. I probably need to shore up the Affinity matchup a bit more, since that's still a thing in my meta. As such, I think a Grim becomes a Shatterstorm. Also want to fit in a Blood Moon, so I'll probably replace either Hibernation or the extra Spell Snare. The one-of Clique has been really good and I may actually slot it into the main as the 13th creature, replacing either a Pillar or an Electrolyze. Alternatively I can easily see keeping 12 creatures and dropping to 3 Snapcaster. Also want to test the 3 Cruise but add 1 Dig.

EDIT: I've been playing so much vintage that I wrote "Mana Drain" instead of "Mana Leak." BIG difference

[cloudscraper]

Lost to Auras for the 3rd tournament in a row. Gaaaaaah

[rcwraspy]

RUG Delver takes down GP Madrid. Here's the list:

[deck]
Creature (12)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets

Sorcery (15)
2 Forked Bolt
1 Pillar of Flame
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Serum Visions

Instant (14)
1 Electrolyze
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Thought Scour
2 Vapor Snag

Land (19)
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dragon's Claw
1 Hibernation
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Negate
1 Dispel
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Electrickery
3 Molten Rain
[/deck]

SB seems fairly straightforward. The spice there is the Destructive Revelry. MD it's hard to argue with a GP winning list but personally I don't like the 2nd Pierce or the Thought Scour. Either of them or both could become more Remand for me.

[cloudscraper]

Today (before losing to Auras), I lost the mirror against the vapor snag - monastery swiftspear - treasure cruise version.

I feel like I might have misinterpreted my role in the matchup and/ or mis-sideboarded. Would like to get some feedback.

I felt like soft counters like Leak and Pierce were terribad, and keeping 4 Remands in against a deck with 0-1 Snapcasters (even if remanding cruise is good) was probably too much.

I always had a really hard time killing swiftspear through multiple burn spells or vapor snags... I pointed my burn spells at Swiftspear during either my opponent's EOT if he didn't play any sorcery, or my own turn: is it correct?

I also wasn't sure about Dispel or Negate. Negate seems extremely good against Cruise and extremely mediocre against anything else. Same for Snare, perfect against Pyro, horribad if the opponent has no Pyro.


Sorry for the maybe "stupid" post.


[deck]
4 Delver of secrets
4 young pyromancer
4 snapcaster mage
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Spell Snare
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
2 Burst Lightning
2 Electrolyze
3 Dig Through Time
5 Island
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard:
2 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Blood Moon
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Hibernation
1 Batterskull
2 Combust
1 Electrickery
3 Magma Spray
1 Shatterstorm[/deck]

[rcwraspy]

can you edit that post to include your list? Full 75, please.

[cloudscraper]

can you edit that post to include your list? Full 75, please.

Sure thing, done!

[zemanjaski]

I get the benefits of burst lightning, but I was wondering why you would prefer BL over forked bolt in the current meta?

Our metas are likely not the same. Play what is best in your own.

[rcwraspy]

Today (before losing to Auras), I lost the mirror against the vapor snag - monastery swiftspear - treasure cruise version.

I feel like I might have misinterpreted my role in the matchup and/ or mis-sideboarded. Would like to get some feedback.

I felt like soft counters like Leak and Pierce were terribad, and keeping 4 Remands in against a deck with 0-1 Snapcasters (even if remanding cruise is good) was probably too much.

I always had a really hard time killing swiftspear through multiple burn spells or vapor snags... I pointed my burn spells at Swiftspear during either my opponent's EOT if he didn't play any sorcery, or my own turn: is it correct?

I also wasn't sure about Dispel or Negate. Negate seems extremely good against Cruise and extremely mediocre against anything else. Same for Snare, perfect against Pyro, horribad if the opponent has no Pyro.


Sorry for the maybe "stupid" post.


[deck]
4 Delver of secrets
4 young pyromancer
4 snapcaster mage
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Spell Snare
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
2 Burst Lightning
2 Electrolyze
3 Dig Through Time
5 Island
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard:
2 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Blood Moon
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Hibernation
1 Batterskull
2 Combust
1 Electrickery
3 Magma Spray
1 Shatterstorm[/deck]

So what was your board plan?

Against the swiftspear version you're definitely the "control" deck (for "who's the beatdown?" purposes), but that doesn't mean you don't need pressure. And feel free to audible to aggro if you have the right opener for it.

Against mirror and other small creature decks I block very aggressively if I know I'm in the control role. It's ok to treat your creatures like 1 and 2 mana delayed removal spells if you need to. Of course, blocking a Prowess creature is tricky. Game 1 Probe is great to know how to handle it, but I'd likely board out Probe and Remand. They do quick damage so Probe for 2 life gets bad and their spells are so cheap that Remanding them back to hand often results in no tempo loss. Looking at your sideboard I'd start with a swap of those 8 cards for your 2 Dispel, Negate, 3 Magma Spray, Electrickery, and Batterskull.

[Valdarith]

You keep some number of Remand in to counter Treasure Cruise.

[zemanjaski]

What rwaspy said - you want to aggressively trade resources early so to preserve your life total; their cards lose value as games go long, whereas your cards gain in value - but you can oly make that happen if your life is high enough to convert time into resources.

[Purp]

Zem, how would you rate the caliber of players you are playing against? Your W:L ratio is insane.

[rcwraspy]

You keep some number of Remand in to counter Treasure Cruise.

I don't know if I'm right or not, but this isn't my take on it.

My thought is that our answer to the opponent's Treasure Cruise is our own Treasure Cruise. When Remand is only good for a "gotcha" moment against 4 cards, and bad against the other 56 cards, it's too much of a liability for me. That said, if you expect your opponent to bring in heavier spells like Keranos or Batterskull from the board then Remand gets a little better.

[Purp]

How crucial is Scalding Tarn? Ive realized I can basically make this deck, I have all the other fetches, except scalding tarns....

[Valdarith]

It's not ABSOLUTELY necessary, but fetching basic Mountain is a thing I do often in matchups where my life total is a big factor. Not being able to do that will lose you a nonzero number of games, but the percentage is pretty small.

[rcwraspy]

How crucial is Scalding Tarn? Ive realized I can basically make this deck, I have all the other fetches, except scalding tarns....

Probably your most important land to be honest. There are builds without fetches but that lowers the value in Treasure Cruise. The fact you get Steam Vents, Island, OR Mountain is, as obvious as it may sound, crucial. There are times where you just fetch for basics, and Misty can't help you cast your red spells.

For instance, you have a tapped Steam Vents, an island, and a fetch on the battlefield. Opponent plays a threat you can bolt, and you have bolt in your hand. I'd much rather take 1 at his EOT to bolt at EOT than take 3 to do it, or than having to wait until my turn.

[rcwraspy]

heh. Two varying opinions on it, it seems. Well, I'd say that it largely depends on how optimal you need the list to be, and whether you can wait for Tarn to be reprinted. It's possible the ZEN fetches get a reprint in the 3rd set of Khans block.

[Platypus]

I have a somewhat similar land issue. I have the current manabase:

4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Shivan Reef
1 Sulfur Falls

Reefs and Falls to make up for the lack of fetches. Maindeck is a bit undecided, but I don't have any Digs so I'm going for the more aggro Swiftspear variant for the moment.

So my question is mostly about those Reefs and Falls. Should I just go with 4 Reefs or maybe a basic land split? What about Gemstone Mines instead? I get 3 activations out of them and then they're Cruise fodder.