Open Site Blathering (formerly Advice from iridium ITT)

[Blackhound]

Hurrrrrrrrrr the website is being run like a piece of shit by the likes of admin Ria, why are people being mean and complaining huuuuuuuuur

[Checkbox]

I didn't issue infractions for disagreements, you know. I issued infractions for spamming/trolling.

You actually just said the words "If they are not constructive, infractions will be issued." This is the equivalent of "If they do this thing I don't like, I will stretch the rules to make sure they get an infraction."

That is not the same thing as if "they break a rule, they will receive the appropriate infraction."

[Mogadishu Jones]

Hurrrrrrrrrr the website is being run like a piece of shit by the likes of admin Ria, why are people being mean and complaining huuuuuuuuur

Shut up Minstrel show.

[Pendulum]

I didn't issue infractions for disagreements, you know. I issued infractions for spamming/trolling.

Actually you did, Sene. Accepting one's blame is part of reconciliation, wouldn't you agree? Not trying to jump down you're throat here, you understand, but things must take their natural course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0TMtK48iww

[Mogadishu Jones]

You made it a drama storm by giving out trolling infractions when they publicly disagreed with your decision.

If they don't even try to be constructive, there will be infractions, and it will be the user's fault alone.

So yeah, that's where I stand here.

Sounds perfectly reasonable and fair, you know how disagreements are

[Blackhound]

Hurrrrrrrrrr the website is being run like a piece of shit by the likes of admin Ria, why are people being mean and complaining huuuuuuuuur

Shut up Minstrel show.

Dont make me bring the lawsuit up again.

[Thrillho]

You made it a drama storm by giving out trolling infractions when they publicly disagreed with your decision.

If they don't even try to be constructive, there will be infractions, and it will be the user's fault alone.

So yeah, that's where I stand here.

But isn't it possible that it is more stifling to infract instead of opening dialog to create an air of constructive criticism to (as Checkbox put it) draw out reasoning for why a user thinks something rather than immediately labeling him/her a troll and issuing him/her an infraction?
That doesn't scream construction from your end either, at least in my opinion, it just seems like you're throwing punishment at what could be drawn into a meaningful dialog and then slamming the door shut on the situation.

Let me ask that a different way: if you're JohnnyMTGSUser, seeing someone get penalized for making their critical statement in the wrong way, what would cause you to then attempt to rephrase in a more genial manner that statement/question/criticism when they have seen that if they do it the wrong way they'll immediately be penalized for it?

[Mogadishu Jones]

Hurrrrrrrrrr the website is being run like a piece of shit by the likes of admin Ria, why are people being mean and complaining huuuuuuuuur

Shut up Minstrel show.

Dont make me bring the lawsuit up again.

Here have some attention minstrel show.

[Thrillho]

Inb4 "MTGS Brand Fun (TM)"

[Col. Khaddafi]

One of the mod lounge leaks that I always found the funnier was that thread where you guys complain about being abused by the userbase.

May there be one day where you will realize that if if you stop acting antagonistically against the userbase, they will stop being so overtly harsh against the staff.
Untill then, roll out he infractions and suspensions I guess

Why is it that there was just one single problem in WCT during my tenure with Brandon and 0 problems during the remainder of Brandon's tenure?
Why is it that this single problem was simply discussed level headedly leading to a simple update of the RLA rules? (well except the dramabomb that Rianalnn fueled by taking the opportunity to lynch the RLA drama bystander -Kijin- from staff).
Why is it that there have been like almost 10 dramabombs in WCT since Brandon got
replaced by the trio of mods Teia, Frox and Senori? You can't even blame the gutter for that one since you have nuked it a long time ago...

[Thrillho]

I am sorry everyone is attacking you, Sene. I admit that this situation appeals balls-to-the-walls idiotic "MTGS Brand Fun (TM)," but I don't think being antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic is going to get either party anywhere other than literally trolling and flaming each other.

I think you made a goof that is a pattern in your moderation and I hope my examples can more clearly explain why this sort of stance on moderation can be detrimental to your users and site.

[Azrael]

I'll try to quickly explain what's up, mmkay.

The reason why the thread was closed (I talked with Galspanic) was because it was a question that was answered. Had it not been full of vitriol and passive aggressiveness, having it as a thread discussing that rule might have been useful, but it was drowned under trolling and spamming. Borderline stuff that was previously deemed okay in CI isn't necessarily considered okay anymore. We're doing stuff differently in that regard. Heck, in August the site felt so much in the hands of the users that I somehow felt compelled to plea to the users to stop being mean. So yeah, when CI threads are a mess of spamming/trolling/bullshit, then they are much more quickly closed now than in the past.

nAs for the RLA rules thing in particular, I expect we'll be talking about that... but in the Mod Lounge, sheltered from users who feel like making a drama storm over it. Had it been a reasonable discussion, CI would have been fine. But the policies we used to have in CI - they didn't work. We'd give up to people who yelling, and as expected, that meant they were yelling even louder next time. The users were too entitled. Now we're trying to make up for it by changing stuff for the better (in the making), make better & fairer rules, but also make it clear in CI that staff's in charge and won't be browbeaten into submission. That's going to be better for everyone, I think.

Everyone knows you're in charge. Your authority isn't at issue. The wisdom of some of your decisions are at issue.

When that's the case, you don't get anywhere by standing on your authority and position. If you do that, a la Extremeicon, you build up an increasing reservoir of discontent which will
eventually bubble over.

Constructive advice is often being taken by the staff - that's good - but if something said is negative (or said in an angry tone) it's often discounted.The users aren't "entitled" - the staff has ignored userbase criticisms more often that not! They're starved for attention, for people who will listen to them, and hear them out when they have an issue. That's hardly unreasonable, and so long as the group-think in the ML is that people criticizing the staff is the problem, instead of a symptom of the occasional bad decision, you're going to be slip back into the perpetual drama cycle that haunted the iridium since its inception.

Older staff tried the approach you're implementing now, and it back-fired on them, hard-core, year after year after year. It. Does. Not. Work.

If you have a topic brimming with vitriol and passion, and you just close the thread - the negative feelings don't disappear. They fester, and become grudges, until you're dealing with
a fresh crop of angry people lurking in CI, waiting for an opportunity to give you a piece of their minds.

You want to disarm the negativity? Listen to them, calm them, take action.

[Captain Murphy]

Oh Sene I don't blame you fully for the fuck ups, you are the only one with balls to come here and talk so a tip of my hat for that

[Thrillho]

Sene has to wait for a 1-power creature to enter the battlefield under his control before he can effectively take action.

[Captain Murphy]

But a stern wag of my finger because staff are fucking up

[Azrael]

Oh Sene I don't blame you fully for the fuck ups, you are the only one with balls to come here and talk so a tip of my hat for that

Indeed.

But the system you're part of now is just terribly, terribly screwed up, at times.

[Sene]

Oh Sene I don't blame you fully for the fuck ups, you are the only one with balls to come here and talk so a tip of my hat for that

Indeed.

But the system you're part of now is just terribly, terribly screwed up, at times.

That I agree with (again, at times).

As for allusions to old times, 1st off, those weren't so bad, 2nd, we are (probably) making considerable changes, good changes, I think, that will make the forum rules less draconian and intimidating. As for CI, I'm always one who's going to be willing to listen,
but it also demands something from the other guy I'm listening to. I think this is true for all the other admins right now as well.

[Kaitscralt]

blackhound, your previous nickname of "minstrel show" has been redacted. it is currently being changed to "helga pataki."

thank you for summiting with the staff of mtgcommunity. we appreciate your continued service and patronage here.

It is good to see that you have come to your senses, frankly I am suprized that the people running this website have not been issued a lawsuit yet. After all various members of this website have been involved/accused in the following over the past 6 months.

malicious attacks.
Death threats.
Doxing.
Hacking
Salvation and placing a virus there.

I also hear that said people are a bunch of "cowards and scumbags".

I will also except my new nickname of helga pataki, admins, please change my custom title to helga pataki.

Thankyou for you time and Patience in understanding.

Yours sincerly.

Blackhound

[Captain Murphy]

You need to rid ER of admin, the day he retires or he is ejected will be a great start to the future of sally

[Checkbox]

As for CI, I'm always one who's going to be willing to listen, but it also demands something from the other guy I'm listening to. I think this is true for all the other admins right now as well.

And yet you were the one who immediately silenced him for "trolling" (when actually he was just stating his opinion), rather than demanding something from the guy you are supposedly listening to?

[Pendulum]

Oh Sene I don't blame you fully for the fuck ups, you are the only one with balls to come here and talk so a tip of my hat for that

Indeed.

But the system you're part of now is just terribly, terribly screwed up, at times.

That I agree with (again, at times).

As for allusions to old times, 1st off, those weren't so bad, 2nd, we are (probably) making considerable changes,
good changes, I think, that will make the forum rules less draconian and intimidating. As for CI, I'm always one who's going to be willing to listen, but it also demands something from the other guy I'm listening to. I think this is true for all the other admins right now as well.

Then please tell us what those changes to make the forums less draconian and intimidating will be? In for a penny....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avaSdC0QOUM

Also, tell Bibi I admire his wit and talent.

[Thrillho]

But you're in a position of authority of top of the food chain of customer service.

Customer: "You can't cook a burger, let me speak to your manager!"

Manager Sene:
*option A*: "What is wrong with your burger?"
*option B*: "I don't like the tone of your voice, get out of my restaurant."

Which of these two things is more conducive to resolving a situation amicably for all parties? Which of these offers better customer service? Which of these is more likely to not only maintain a customer, but lead a customer in the direction you want them to wind up in?

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, Sene.

[Captain Murphy]

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, Sene.

-Winnie the pooh, 2002

[Sene]

Checkbox: You're referring to the Ral Zarek posts. The first one was a spam/troll combo (doing nothing but talk shit about Sally, and not really offering anything to the topic), the second one was pure troll, calling TCM Raymond Babbitt, who is of course the Rain Man and autistic. I don't care if you disagree with my opinion, but do it in a way that actually adds something to the discussion. He didn't. I'm actually surprised we're even discussing that, to be honest...

Kijin: I'll definitely listen to people who come at me respectfully with a complaint about a mod (and indeed about myself). But if it's gonna be all like HE/SHE IS TERRIBLE, STAFF IS CORRUPT blah blah, then I won't care about one word you say.

[Captain Murphy]

Do you know why gals and the crew don't come and post here Sene?

[Checkbox]

Checkbox: You're referring to the Ral Zarek posts. The first one was a spam/troll combo (doing nothing but talk shit about Sally, and not really offering anything to the topic), the second one was pure troll, calling TCM Raymond Babbitt, who is of course the Rain Man and autistic. I don't care if you disagree with my opinion, but do it in a way that actually adds something to the discussion. He didn't. I'm actually surprised we're even discussing that, to be honest...

I'm sorry, but there's no way that the first one was anything remotely close to spam or trolling. The second one, I fully agree with. But the first one? That one was no more spam than the Blade332 post I mentioned above. Yet you seemed awfully quick to jump on that one just
because he was trashing Sally.

[Pendulum]

Kijin: I'll definitely listen to people who come at me respectfully with a complaint about a mod (and indeed about myself). But if it's gonna be all like HE/SHE IS TERRIBLE, STAFF IS CORRUPT blah blah, then I won't care about one word you say.

Really? It doesn't have an emotional impact on you? You're able to dismiss such arguments without having your heart get just a little harder? 'Cuz that happens to me.

Edit- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

[Thrillho]

Kijin: I'll definitely listen to people who come at me respectfully with a complaint about a mod (and indeed about myself). But if it's gonna be all like HE/SHE IS TERRIBLE, STAFF IS CORRUPT blah blah, then I won't care about one word you say.

Option B is not how you offer a customer service. It is your job as the top of the food chain to get to the bottom of what a problem is and find a way to mediate or resolve it, which can include "oh this is a groundless statement and there is nothing that we can do." You cannot make that latter assumption, however, based solely on "Someone is saying something vitriolic without a wall of text underpinning what the source of this vitriol is or is related to." You need to tease it out if
their initial foray into the discussion isn't a long, detailed description of their problem.

It is the reason Starcitygames is renown for their service and gets away with charging significant %s higher than most other online stores for products and why your site has an entire group of people now not-so-affectionately referred to as "CI Warriors."

[Kaitscralt]

I'm scared, where is Boubs.

[Shalako]

Why in the world do you people care if MTGS Rules are too harsh?

[Pendulum]

I'm scared, where is Boubs.

Your avatar is a welcome mediating force here, Kaitscralt. Please spam more.

[Thrillho]

I don't understand how saying, "Why do you think that?" in response to someone is so much harder than clicking their infract-this-post button, typing out a message explaining why you think their post is against the rules, sending the infraction, going into their post and editing red text into it, and subsequently answering the inevitable long back-and-forth about why the infraction is unjust and why the staff is a morally corrupt bunch of hooligans.

I think if you took like exponentially smaller amount of time to do the former, you'd have a lot fewer of the latter. But what do I know, I'm banned.

[Captain Murphy]

Why in the world do you people care if MTGS Rules are too harsh?

Because its BS and I don't want any community to suffer

[Thrillho]

Why in the world do you people care if MTGS Rules are too harsh?

Az, care to field this since you brought this up ITT?

[Blackhound]

http://kotaku.com/5878669/bioware-bans- ... ernet-meme#

[Azrael]

As for allusions to old times, 1st off, those weren't so bad,

I know an awful lot of people who dealt with CI and the lounge from those times, including past and current staff, who would very much disagree with that assessment.

Most of those from that time who didn't think it was so bad, were involved in making them that way.

So many angry threads...

As for CI, I'm always one who's going to be willing to listen, but it also demands something from the other guy I'm listening to. I think this is true for all the other admins right now as well.

A lot of those people aren't going to be moderating their tones until their bleak assessment of whether you're listening to him and appreciating his concerns changes, for the
better. Right now they're in a moderately dark and cynical place.

If you want to convert those cynics, waiting around for them to start being polite isn't a winning strategy. You have to give them a reason to change their bleak assessment of whether or not the staff are listening and open-minded - by listening and being open-minded when they come to you, angry or not.

Why in the world do you people care if MTGS Rules are too harsh?

Az, care to field this since you brought this up ITT?

It's just an instinctive response for me to want to intervene when I see other people around me getting a raw deal, I suppose. Especially when
there's so much irrationality involved in the decision. It's something that *ought* to be easy to fix. But, people.

There's bigger and more pressing issues, certainly. But I suppose we tend to get up in arms about the ones that are closer in proximity to us, and I'm still in close proximity to MTGS. Its a good place to play mafia, still.

[Thrillho]

I'm scared, where is Boubs.

have you checked your avatar?

[Pendulum]

A lot of those people aren't going to be moderating their tones until their bleak assessment of whether you're listening to him and appreciating his concerns changes, for the better. Right now they're in a moderately dark and cynical place.

If you want to convert those cynics, waiting around for them to start being polite isn't a winning strategy. You have to give them a reason to change their bleak assessment of whether or not the staff are listening and open-minded - by listening and being open-minded when they come to you, angry or not.

Care to role-play? I can field this one well enough, I think, and Sene appears to have phased out again.

This isn't the way the world works.
Petulance and anger are met with discipline, not open arms and the killing of the fatted calf. Again, there's a difference between acceptance and enabling.

[Thrillho]

It is the way the world works in customer service, which this is what the issue at hand is?

[Thrillho]

Like that is literally the way the world works in the customer service sector.