[Primer] UR Delver

[Valdarith]

Yeah that card is the nut high against Twin, UWR, Scapeshift, and to some extent Storm, but I've been debating whether it's actually necessary or just a cute card.

[zemanjaski]

Negate is really good too...I think you only *really* want it for Scapeshift / Storm.

[zemanjaski]

Really want Counterflux, pardon me.

[Valdarith]

Yeah, I've found I really never needed it against Twin or UWR. Dispel and Negate have usually been enough. I switched to Negate since it's easier to cast and comes down a turn sooner, but if we start cutting things like Mana Leak I could see a need for Counterflux in the board to win counter wars outright.

[zemanjaski]

For me, Counterflux starts to be more appealing since Dekver now feels like it just outright beats the "fair" decks and Counterflyx feels like the best card to beat the unfair decks while being playable elsewhere.

I think the deck has no truly bad matchups, which is very crazy.

[LP, of the Fires]

Boggles and Burn are pretty outrageously bad.

[zemanjaski]

Burn is a real deck and a real nuisance. Boggles isn't a real deck; just got to suck it up. If Delver has very solid tier 1 matchups and mostly solid tier 2 matchups I'm very fine with that.

[LP, of the Fires]

I was mostly just correcting your statement.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see a resurgence of boggles. It's pretty decent vs. the decks that got significant upgrades and it's bad matchups are likely to get hated out.

[zemanjaski]

Me being me, I hate pedantry.

[zemanjaski]

IE: having a deck that's less than 1% of the meta be a bad matchup isn't relevant.

You're right though, Boggles matches up pretty well against the reasonably expected tier 1.

[Mr. Metronome]

for the record I'm super chuffed that you used the word chuffed, that word is underutilised.

[Platypus]

I need to update the primer at some point. Anything apart from Treasure Cruise, Monastery Swiftspear, and Keranos that needs to be mentioned? Any other ideas?

[zemanjaski]

Some of the stranger SB cards perhaps.

[rcwraspy]

Hibernation is already a sb consideration for Pod and goyf decks. It hits Boggles fairly well also if that's a represented deck in someone's meta. Also decent though a tad slow against this new Jeskai combo deck.

[Valdarith]

I had typed out a similar argument but realized we all know the benefits and drawbacks of playing Hibernation in the 75. If I were to guess I'd say Zem isn't fond of it because he'd be lowering his percentages against the tier one decks at the expense of a fringe deck. If Boggles actually ended up being a 10% representation of the meta that could change his mind though. As it is there are a lot better cards to be playing against Ascendancy, Pod, and Goyf decks than Hibernation so that's really not a good enough excuse.

[rcwraspy]

SB needs work. I think I've been really undervaluing Counterflux.

I do think that I over-commit to pet cards a bit, but I run 2 counterflux in my Delver board. I definitely want to see it in some matchups and the UWR matchup goes long enough that having 2 doesn't hurt. I also have a slot that rotates between Dispel and Negate. Obviously Dispel being superior in counter wars but Negate can hit a broader range of things, like Scapeshift and Splinter Twin and walkers.

So for me that's typically 3 counterspell slots, followed by 3 artifact slots, 1 to 2 bullets against small creatures, and 2 to 3 midrange slots. Then fill in the rest.

[rcwraspy]

I had typed out a similar argument but realized we all know the benefits and drawbacks of playing Hibernation in the 75. If I were to guess I'd say Zem isn't fond of it because he'd be lowering his percentages against the tier one decks at the expense of a fringe deck. If Boggles actually ended up being a 10% representation of the meta that could change his mind though. As it is there are a lot better cards to be playing against Ascendancy, Pod, and Goyf decks than Hibernation so that's really not a good enough excuse.

I certainly am not advocating dedicating slots against Boggles unless it's disproportionately represented in one's meta. Just saying that Hibernation has already seen space in some boards, mine included at times, for other matchups and is a reasonable card against Boggles should you happen to see them. But you're probably right that there are better pieces for those slots.

[DXI-Edge]

Some things I've noticed with the deck:

1) needs more threats. I'm going up to 4 Pyromancers most likely. On that note...
2) Grim Lavamancer is pretty meh game 1. Which is scary because we need more threats. To compensate:
3) 1-2 more burn spells.
4) I also want Vapor snag in the deck again. Just as a catch all.

Here is where I'm at for now:

[deck]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

2 Burst Lightning
2 Spell Snare
2 Vapor Snag
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
3 Mana Leak
4 Remand
2 Electrolyze
2 Treasure Cruise

1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
5 Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Dispel
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Magma Spray
1 Combust
1 Negate
1 Counterflux
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Blood Moon
1 Shatterstorm
1 Batterskull
1 Treasure Cruise
[/deck]

[DXI-Edge]

I'm gonna actually sit down tonight and figure out what 75 I want against each deck rather than tweaking the shell I stole from Zeman so I can have a proper sideboard rather than "this seem Good, sure "

[zemanjaski]

I 4-0'd last night, deck feels degenerate in the "fair" matches now.

Jund 2-0
Merfolk 2-1
UWR 2-0
Affinity 2-1

[zemanjaski]

Vedalken Shackles is rather dumb.

[zemanjaski]

Looks solid DXI, hit me up on fb when you've played some games.

[PrimalBurn]

Did anyone catch the Gerry T videos today on SCG? I'm always appreciative of seeing other people play a deck I enjoy, nice just seeing how other players approach various situations. He only ended 2-2 but all his games seemed close and you could constantly see the power potential this deck has. Also I finally got to snapcaster back a cruise for the first time...those feels.

[DXI-Edge]

His list was bad, in that it wasnt optimal vs. Affinity, which is why he had such a hard time.

His other loss was to Blue Tron which is honestly one of the hardest matchups we have. I'm not too worried.

On a side note, I dont think Pod can beat us. Ever. I'm 6-0 vs it with my version and GerryT thinks the matchup is a beating for us. Which is awesome.

[zemanjaski]

Watching him play...I've come a long way in two years.

[PrimalBurn]

I used to always imagine tron as being a super clunky deck so I was surprised how hard that matchup looked. Haven't played against it that much it looks like that matchup pretty much revolves around how consistently they get tron online and being able to tempo them out with our cheap counters.

[Platypus]

What are your plans against Jeskai Ascendancy? Looks like the deck is quite solid, and will probably be a force to consider at least until the next ban-hammer date (which is when, btw?).

[GoblinWarchief]

I think this deck has a slightly favourable matchup against jeskai ascendancy.... fast clock + removal for all their mana dorks (except caryatid) + counterspells should be a nice mix.

[zemanjaski]

Delver and Twin have good Ascendancy MUs.

[Platypus]

Well, that's good to hear. Should be interesting to see if the Modern metagame can adapt and hate out the deck enough so any bans aren't necessary. I've seen several comments on the local forums saying they will skip Modern for the time being because of the deck.

[DXI-Edge]

So I'm going to a modern FNM tonight and I need some help with boarding patterns (not board PLANS, just an idea of whats good/bad)

So here is the "plan" I'm going into with the following list:
[deck]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

2 Burst Lightning
2 Spell Snare
2 Vapor Snag
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
3 Mana Leak
4 Remand
2 Electrolyze
2 Treasure Cruise

1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
5 Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Dispel
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Magma Spray
1 Combust
1 Negate
1 Counterflux
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Blood Moon
1 Shatterstorm
1 Batterskull
1 Treasure Cruise
[/deck]

vs. Affinity:
-4 Remand
-3 Mana Leak
+3 Magma Spray
+2 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Shatterstorm
+1 Vedalken Shackles

vs. Jund
-2 Electrolyze
-2 Vapor Snag/Burst Lightning (depending on version)
+2 Blood Moon
+1 Treasure Cruise
+1 Batterskull

vs. Pod
-4 Remand
-2 Vapor Snag
-1 Mana Leak
+3 Magma Spray
+2 Blood Moon
+2 Grim Lavamancer

I'm unsure about this plan, as I think remand is good (probably not on the draw but especially on the play)

vs. Ascendancy Combo
-2 Vapor Snag
-2 Electrolyze
-1 Mana Leak
+3 Magma Spray
+1 Dispel
+1 Negate

vs. Burn
-2 Electrolyze
-2 Vapor Snag
OR
-4 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Dispel
+1 Negate
+1 Batterskull
+1 Counterflux

I want all the counters for their burn. Depending on the version, I either want creature removal or none.

vs. Control
-2 Vapor Snag
-2 Electrolyze
+1 Treasure Cruise
+1 Combust
+1 Batterskull
+1 Dispel
( Could see adding Blood Moon here against certain UWR Versions, especially Kiki-Control, but not sure what to cut. I like burst lightning as it kills Resto, but I could see cutting them)

Vs. Mirror
-2 Vapor Snag
+1 Vedalken Shackles
+1 Treasure Cruise
+2 Grim Lavamancer

Not sure what else to cut here.

Now some of you might be thinking "if Vapor Snag gets sided out that much, why are you running it?" the answer? Catch-all. Preboard, I want to play aggressive in most matchups and Vapor Snag helps me do that, and its also good vs. quite a few fringe matchups.

Let me know what you think!

[zemanjaski]

I'm thinking about cutting Blood Moon since UWR and Jund feel really good now and it doesn't do as much as I'd like vs Tron and Scapeshift. Might become LD instead (synergy with our creatures and cruise too), would allow you splash green comfortably if you're so inclined too.

[Mr. Metronome]

What would you splash green for? Just Ancient Grudge?

I feel pretty comfortable in the Affinity matchup without it and have always seen it as a bit of a crutch.

Destructive Revelry could be alright though.

[zemanjaski]

Makes EE better, back to nature if you need it; there's something else that I can't think of too (rolls eyes)

[GoblinWarchief]

Also straight burn has a good matchup against ascendancy -- the problem is not the deck itself because it can be beaten , but the fact that it can win consistently on turn 3 and turn 2 with a god hand, and this breaks modern rules according to wizards.

[Platypus]

It's very consistent. I haven't played it myself, but I've followed the local discussion. One guy has tested it against the tier 1 decks and not only is it consistently fast, it's also very resilient to early disruption. He won against double Eidolon for instance. Sure, it's possible to go 1-for-1 against it's key cards during the early turns, but then your own buildup suffer while the Ascendancy player just can prepare for a winning turn. To me it looks like the problem card is Glittering Wish, it makes it too easy to find answers to the opponent's disruption cards and makes you have 7 copies of Jeskai Ascendancy.

[GoblinWarchief]

I agree that the "busted" card is glittering wish, but i don't think that it is likely to be banned because it is not the card that make the deck so fast.
And no, just 1 for 1'ing in the early turns won't do nothing, but if you pair a couple of removal/counterspells/lock pieces with a decent clock you will win.

[Mcdonalds]

Pretty sure the busted card is Treasure Cruise in all honesty.

[LP, of the Fires]

This ins't the thread for it(someone should probably make a Banned list discussion thread...), but the problem cards are ascendancy and Cruise. Ascendancy is both the combo card and enabler. It generates mana while filtering which is blatantly overpowered and unsafe by itself. Once it's in play, simply playing magic digs you deeper to your combo pieces.

Treasure cruise on the other hand invalidates entire strategies. Thoughtseize and inquisition strats almost become unplayable. Trying to grind me out? Here's this draw three.

You could ban glittering wish, but that leaves the combo still in place and as Storm has shown, love will find a way. In this case, the engine cards seem to objectively powerful for any surgical bans to be effective. That and wish is a fine card that by it's nature would probably enable cool decks in the future(gets better which each sets printing), that the cost of banning it is probably worse then the loss of this oppressive deck, especially if the deck remains broken.

Also, the formats like a month old so all ban talk is premature, but we all know that and it's interesting nonetheless.

Back to Delver Discussion

[zemanjaski]

Ive got an article about Treasure Cruise being a joke coming out tonight. CFB asked for me to write it immediately.