[Primer] UR Delver

[zemanjaski]

That's actually pretty reasonable, I'll have a think about how it would play out.

[Jedi]

That's actually pretty reasonable, I'll have a think about how it would play out.

I've been thinking of going back to UR over RUG just to try the Angel plan out. Having played a lot of UR, I don't think you'd see a lot of change in your game plan. Only running 2 Angels you're likely to draw it later in the game where it's a great top-deck. I was tired of topping a late Delver or YP when I'm staring a 'goyf or Resto Angel in the face. Incidentally, I switched to RUG just to have 'goyf as my 2-drop over YP. I dig YP, but you need to have some fatties when the games go longer. T1 Delver that blind flips doesn't happen as often as we'd like.

[Valdarith]

Tell me why you'd run a creature that requires you to tap out on your turn with three mana over a card that you can play at instant speed and take your opponent's best card out of their hand (Clique).

If you ever entertain running a three drop in this deck, it's Clique or nothing.

[LP, of the Fires]

Well, I'm not disagreeing Val, but Resto/goyf where specifically referenced and IA can fight either of those depending on the circumstances.

[Valdarith]

My issue with that reference is that the UWR control matchup is already favorable and playing Illusory Angel actually makes the Jund matchup worse because it plays right into Abrupt Decay et al. It's also a terrible topdeck which is the last thing you want in this deck.

[zemanjaski]

+1 Val.

[Jedi]

I agree that Clique is a superior card. Your argument about playing into Abrupt Decay, etc. is no different for Clique though. The Jund player can (and will) respond to the Clique's ETB effect and kill it anyway. Angel though, won't die to a Bolt. Let me be clear, I don't think that Angel is a superior creature to Vendilion Clique. I feel that this deck often needs a serious beat stick. I've played a lot of paper magic with it and I wouldn't consider/suggest it if it could be easily dismissed without even giving it a try. This deck's creatures are all X/1's (Insectile Aberration aside) and games with it aren't necessarily quick. The 1 toughness can become a liability in the longer games. Z's list, like most UR Delver lists, has only Mana Leak as a counter to creatures without a 2 cmc. Additionally, anything that hits the table with 3+ toughness is very difficult for this deck to deal with. If you can land an Angel, you have 4 power flying over or a solid defender. As for a late-game top-deck, ya, the Angel can suck if you're Hellbent, but a lot of the cards in this list suck as late-game top-decks too.

P.S. I'd probably replace the Flooded Strand for an additional mana-producing land (Sulfur Falls?) if I were to run the Angel too.

[Valdarith]

The argument is actually a lot different. When you play Illusory Angel you do it at the cost of casting two spells DURING YOUR TURN. With Clique I can not only cast it during my opponent's turn, I also take the best card out of his hand doing it and don't have to invest another spell to cast her.

[Jedi]

Tell me why you'd run a creature that requires you to tap out on your turn with three mana ...

I think this is our disconnect in the discussion. I'm not suggesting that Illusory Angel is jammed on T3 unless you know you can (ie: Gitaxian Probe and see a weak hand.) This deck is full of fragile creatures and the deck can't beat a resolved [card]Night of Souls' Betrayal[/card]. Cards like Lingering Souls are brick walls while Pyroclasm and Zealous Persecution are like 2 mana Plague Winds. I've been wrecked by each of those cards in tournaments before (among others ).

My issue with that reference is that the UWR control matchup is already favorable ...

I actually wasn't thinking about UWR control with my Restoration Angel comment, I was thinking about Pod.

[zemanjaski]

If probably play stitched drake first.

[Valdarith]

I was thinking Storm Crow.

[zemanjaski]

My response was 5% more serious, but similarly unlikely to see reality.

[Mr. Metronome]

Likely playing this deck at the local Player of the Year finals, a store ran 3 qualifiers at which you earned points (sealed, standard, modern), and if you're above a certain threshold you get to play in the final event. Good prizing, and it'll be a blast as its a triple format tournament.

Round 1: Standard
Round 2: Modern
Round 3: Standard
Round 4/5: Modern
Round 6/7: Standard
Top8: Draft

This is going to be my weapon of choice for modern, unless Jeskai Ascendancy turns out to be unbeatable (it'd be funny to play Jeskai Combo in both standard and modern ).

So, I'll be rigorously testing this deck until October 25th. I'll post notes here as I take them. If anyone comes up with sweet tech or anything like that, ship it my way

[zemanjaski]

Cool, I'm testing out some new ideas this week I'll let you know.

[Mr. Metronome]

Got some games in today vs GR Tron and Tarmo Twin. Neither were piloted by someone super experienced with the deck but we talked about things after as well. 2-2 vs Tron, the matchup has some games where it's just a blow out and we can't do anything to win. Really tough to do anything without a turn 1 Delver.

RUG Twin was something like 3-1 or 4-2, that matchup feels much better. Certainly harder than UR Twin, though. I can't believe I ever played this deck without Gitaxian Probe, having close to perfect information about your opponents hand makes decision making a lot more reasonable.

My friend is proxying Jund, another is building Affinity, and I'll probably proxy up pod and UWR.

Any other major archetypes you suggest testing against?

[zemanjaski]

Tron is pretty bad, 2-2 is very acceptable.

Also test vs Scapeshift.

[Mr. Metronome]

I will test some vs scapeshift. I played that deck for a while, and have played both sides of the match up a bit, so I have some idea what to do.

[zemanjaski]

I'm looking at running slightly fewer counters and slightly more removal; fewer hands that are too reactive basically, more cards going into the yard for Treasure Cruise.

Then I need to evaluate the SB cards to be sure that they're the best for my expected meta (you should all do the same).

How about 1 Deprive main? I think it's pretty gas.

[Valdarith]

I think that would be fine in place of Spell Pierce. I agree with being more proactive. I'm actually still a fan of 2-3 Vapor Snag main for that reason. It plays both roles pretty well, acts as an extra counter to Twin, and makes the Tron and UWR matchups a little better (even if UWR is already favorable).

[Valdarith]

[deck]
4 delver of secrets
4 young pyromancer
4 snapcaster mage

4 gitaxian probe
4 serum visions
1 thought scour
4 lightning bolt
2 burst lightning
2 spell snare
2 vapor snag
1 deprive
4 remand
3 mana leak
3 treasure cruise

4 scalding tarn
2 misty rainforest
2 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
4 steam vents
1 mountain
4 island

2 grim lavamancer
2 dispel
2 magma spray
2 forked bolt
1 flame slash
1 vandalblast
2 combust
2 negate
1 flashfreeze
[/deck]

[Valdarith]

Forked Bolt or Electrolyze? Is the latter winmore? I've played with Electrolyze quite a bit but I'm willing to try more things.

[zemanjaski]

It's so hard to say! They're both good.

I'm leaning towards 2 Burst Lightning, 4 Lightning Bolt, +3 interactive cards but I can't decide what (Pillar of Flame, Vapor Snag or Electrolyze).

I'm also a bit down on Thoughtscour; I think I actually prefer Sleight if Hand for the filtering! Madness.

I think a lot of these choices are preference tbh.

[Valdarith]

Sleight is definitely better in a vacuum. My Thought Scour is just insurance for running three Cruise.

Have you tried Snag before? It seems lackluster on paper but it's been really good for me. Time Walk, buyback on Snappy, return Pyro in response to removal, counter Twin, bounce in response to Plating equip, and all sorts of other cool stuff.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah I played with it in standard, it's a strong card. I don't know why but u have some weird aversion to it in modern for no explicable reason; I should definitely try out a copy or two, if no other reason that it's obviously good and because the downside is so much less important when you're Cruising.

Treasure Cruise is so dumb it's terrific.

[Valdarith]

Yes, I think running Cruise makes running cards with inherent CA disadvantage more palatable. I've been running three (!) without Cruise and have liked it but you have to make room for Cruise somewhere.

[Valdarith]

Caleb Durward is running UR Delver on stream. Has Swiftspear in his list with four Peezy and three Snaps. Interesting build.

[Valdarith]

My goodness Treasure Cruise is broken.

[zemanjaski]

I played my league match tonight vs Jund to a casual 3-0 (BO5); that matchup feels so much better now that we have a random draw 3!

Anyway, I think I might mess around with this in testing this week ~

[deck]UR Delver[/deck]
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

Non-Creature Spells
2 Burst Lightning
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
2 Treasure Cruise

~ 19 lands
[/deck]

Just trying out some different configurations basically.

[zemanjaski]

LETS DISCUSS COUNTERSPELLS!

- Mana Leak
- Remand
- Spell Pierce
- Spell Snare

How many do you like and why?

[Mr. Metronome]

I've been really sold on 3 spell snare, it's very good against a lot of our problem cards like goyf. Spell pierce had been underwhelming lately. Remand is awesome in this deck. mana leak is fine but bad late, and this list sees the late game fairly often.

[Valdarith]

I don't like more than two Spell Snare, but there's a lot of Twin in my paper meta so I'm biased because it's just not very good against them.

Pierce is fine. I like being able to play Peezy with one blue open to avoid it being removed. It's also nice on the draw against Storm, Boggles, and a Pod player with a turn one dork. It's never really dead against UWR since the game is usually determined on one critical turn based on who wins the counter war, and you can always use it for Peezy and Cruise fodder too.

I have tried 3-4 Remand and always find myself going back to 4, especially now that others are figuring out how good Cruise is.

[jsilv]

I like Pierce as a 2 or 3-of because I frequently like being able to make other plays in a turn and it interacts well vs. Twin and Ascendancy. Remand is just a god damn beating and a snap 4-of in any blue aggro-control plan regardless of how much I disliked it in the old format. It also comes up huge in the mirror and against any other deck running Cruise. Counterspells in general become a lot more important when other people know Ancestral Recall is a real card in a given format.

Snare is a 2-of that can go up depending on metagame. I don't like how narrow it is, but it hits the most important CMC in the format. Mana Leak is dicks, I'd rather run a real counterspell ala Swan Song or similar even with the associated drawbacks.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah Leak us going down in value with Pod declining in my area;

I also think my entire SB plan needs to be re-evaluated with Treasure Cruise in mind as the matchups all feel different now. Expect a more substantive post soon.

[rcwraspy]

LETS DISCUSS COUNTERSPELLS!

- Mana Leak
- Remand
- Spell Pierce
- Spell Snare

How many do you like and why?

Spell Snare
I like to have 4 in my 75 for this deck. Maybe it's a crutch, but it lines up so well against Burn, Affinity, BGx, and Merfolk (they don't always have Vial and it still has targets when they do) so it increases our percentage points against those decks and it's still pertinent in other matchups. I usually have 3 main and 1 side.

Spell Pierce
For some reason I've never been a big fan of this card. I often feel like I'm just using it in situations where it's not optimal but I don't feel it will have a use elsewhere so why not use it so it's not a dead card. If it were something else it could feel better, so this is often a test slot for me. That said, it has won me a couple of games (often via opponent misplays not playing around it). I typically just run 1. Modern is still a creature format, after all. While Pierce can be powerful and it has plenty of targets in the format, they're usually not the ones winning the game for the opponent. Though I gotta say I do love hitting a Cryptic with it.

Remand / Mana Leak
I'm combining them here not because they're necessarily fungible but because I've thought a LOT about what sort of split to run between the two. You could plot a graph for these where one is better early and the other better later, with them meeting on a specific turn - depending on the CMC of what you're countering. For instance, if you're countering a 2 mana spell then Leak is better until their 5th land drop at which point Leak becomes a tax and Remand is a cantrip. But if that's a 4CMC spell you're countering, they can cast through Leak on 7 lands but Remand Time Walks them until 8 lands. Modern seems like a T2 and T4 format so I like a split favoring Remand. In the past I've had 4 Remand 0 Leak and I've also had 2 and 2. I think I may try 3 Remand and 1 or 2 Leak.

[Valdarith]

Zem mentioned Deprive earlier, and I think all of us agree that Mana Leak is not very good. What about Delay? It's card disadvantage after three turns, but it seems really good in a deck with Delver and Peezy and it feels a lot less bad to topdeck than Mana Leak.

[zemanjaski]

It might be fine for the same reason that Vapor Snag is, but it broadly hurts the decks ability to grind out wins. Admittedly I hate everything.

[Valdarith]

Yeah, our options for a good two-mana counterspell are limited for sure. It's Remand followed distantly by everything else. At least Delay is pretty good AGAINST counterspells though.

[zemanjaski]

I think Leak is good, just maybe not so good that I want 3.

[zemanjaski]

Just wanted to say, the discourse here has been incredibly helpful and I'm super chuffed to be part of this group.

[zemanjaski]

SB needs work. I think I've been really undervaluing Counterflux.