(POST ROTATION) JESKAI BURN

[LP, of the Fires]

This burn deck has actually tested fairly well, but I can respect that opinion.

What were you testing against LP? I havn't done any testing on my end so its just pure theory-crafting. . .

I think Craig Wescoe's Jeskai Counter Burn approach is quite interesting though http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12049.

Mostly my own brews. Soon I'll blow up this forum with a bunch of decks. I'd do it all in one thread, but if people actually care to discuss
stuff, I'll need to make like, 8.

[Tyrael]

MDU, do you see a Jeskai midrange/tempo deck working out at all?

[Pedros]

Problem with Jeskai tempo is the fact that there isnt good 2 drop. The only one I found that is "quite" good are Dauntless River Marshal and Akroan Hoplite. We have however a lot of good 3 drops (Brimaz, Rabblemaster, Mantis), 4 drops (Phoenix, Ephara, Purphoros) and 5 drops (Sakrhan, Stormbreath, Keranos).

[Valdarith]

I think Steam Augury is playable as a Delve enabler. I also think that five mana ur spell that deals damage equal to cards in hand could be a thing.

As for Chained to the Rocks, does Singing Bell Strike not do the same thing? It's dead if the game goes REALLY long, but it's a lot more reliable to cast and eases up the mana requirements quite a bit.

[Valdarith]

I really just want Treasure Cruise to be Ancestral Recall.

[BiddingMaster]

I really just want Treasure Cruise to be Ancestral Recall.

dont we all.

[BlakLanner]

It may not be Recall but we can probably get it down to Divination costs fairly regularly.

[BlakLanner]

Looking at it from a counterburn standpoint, I think this is where I would begin:

[deck]Raka Counterburn[/deck]

It is possible that the Firedancers should be Goblin Rabblemasters. I feel like we are going to need to contain their board and Deflecting Palm + Firedancer will kill any creature that has power greater than or equal to its toughness.

[Valdarith]

I don't feel like Mindswipe is playable, as much as I want it to be. I'm sure Nullify isn't playable though. I'd rather go all out with Swan Song for the awesome synergy with Searing Blood and Satyr Firedancer. I think Deflecting Palm is pretty good with Firedancer in the deck, but three may be too many. It's a situational card and I really don't want to see one in my opening hand.

[Valdarith]

What about this?

[deck]
Creatures (14)
4 Satyr Firedancer
4 Mantis Rider
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells (23)
3 Swan Song
4 Searing Blood
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Jeskai Charm
4 Stoke the Flames

Lands (23)
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Shivan Reef
4 Temple of Epiphany
2 Mystic Monastery
1 Temple of Triumph
3 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Mountain
1 Island
[/deck]

[BlakLanner]

Mindswipe is a guilty pleasure/pet card until I can properly test it. It may be greedy but just the thought of "Counter your PW, kill your other PW" is just too juicy to pass up up here in Magical Christmas Land.

Why isn't Nullify playable? Most decks will run creatures. We may just want Dissolve/Dissipate to cover everything but 3 mana is a lot more than two.

Vald, from a straight burn standpoint that might be viable. I think I like Sarkhan over Stormbreath for the extra utility but I can see protection from Banishing Light being somewhat useful.

[Valdarith]

Mindswipe is a guilty pleasure/pet card until I can properly test it. It may be greedy but just the thought of "Counter your PW, kill your other PW" is just too juicy to pass up up here in Magical Christmas Land.

Why isn't Nullify playable? Most decks will run creatures. We may just want Dissolve/Dissipate to cover everything but 3 mana is a lot more than two.

Vald, from a straight burn standpoint that might be viable. I think I like Sarkhan over Stormbreath for the extra utility but I can see protection from Banishing Light being somewhat useful.

A split of Sarkhan and Dragon is usually the best because each are useful in different situations. Here though, I prefer the more offensive utility of Dragon. Sarkhan can be killed
on crackbacks where Dragon cannot, and I'm betting on Dragon's pro white to be a big deal in the new format.

[Jasper]

Disdainful Stroke seems pretty good in the Counterburn style lists. I say this because dealing with things over 4 CMC is generally difficult to do with burn spells. It covers a weakness, and I think I'd prefer it to Nullify.

Erase might be solid in the sideboard. There are even more viable enchantments running around now.

[rage_jl]

[deck]
4 Dissolve
4 Lightning Strike
3 Stoke the Flames
3 Jeskai Charm
2 End Hostilities
4 Font of Fortune
1 Jace's Ingenuity
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Singing Bell Strike
3 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Keranos, God of Storms

26 Lands
[/deck]

The card counts are pure spitballing, I do like the idea of running no creatures main but thought about a prognostic sphinx or 2. Cutting white completely and playing just UR would probably be smoother. Playing evolving wilds to help grab mountains could make chained to the rocks functional instead of the singing bell strikes. Sarkhan is a 3 of as he can be removal as well as a finisher.

Wilds, Burn, Fonts, Prog Sphinx, and if the new Jace was played (which would help activate Keranos to attack) could help make Treasure Cruise a 1 or 2 of and be cast at a reasonable cost.

If Jeskai Mantis Rider, Rabblemaster, or
any other friends could be in the SB.

[BrainsickHater]

Here's a fun list I threw together off of LPs:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Mantis Rider
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Narset, Enlightened Master

Noncreature spells
2 Sarkhan Dragonspeaker
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Jeskai Charm
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Howl of the Horde

Lands
2 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Temple of Triumph
2 Mystic Monastery
10 Mountain
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
[/deck]

I don't really like being a dedicated burn deck so much in Khans Standard, as I think there's probably too much lifegain attached to relevant bodies, and not enough 2 mana spells that are worth casting. However, I do like the idea of a tempo deck in what will likely be a midrange format. You play a bunch of efficient spells to generate virtual card advantage and close
the door on midrange decks, and these efficient spells are naturally good against any aggro brews running around.

All I really want to do with this deck is jam a threat and ride it to victory. The burn functions as efficient removal and game-ending damage. I really don't like Searing Blood, as it seems extremely doubtful that there will be an abundance of <= 2 toughness creatures. It seems like a one-of Narset is not awful in the deck, as one trigger likely wins the game, and Howl of the Horde pushes the power level of the deck up. I can see myself randomly winning games with attack ->Howl of the Horde -> Jeskai Charm. All that said, I really had a lot of trouble deciding what to replace the Searing Bloods with. I wanted cards that would push the power level of the deck a bit and not be as narrow as Searing Blood. Narset and Howl seemed like the best options, but I can totally see the cards being useless.

[TBuzzsaw]

How would Ephara fair with Rabblemaster in a tempo deck?

[Valdarith]

Searing Blood doesn't need to be facing a deck with small creatures to be good. It's really nice for doubling up with Magma Jet or Lightning Strike for removal without two for oneing yourself.

That being said, I think you're underestimating exactly how much small aggro is going to be present on day 0. This is usually when savvy players pilot aggro to capitalize on suboptimal three color builds.

[BrainsickHater]

That being said, I think you're underestimating exactly how much small aggro is going to be present on day 0. This is usually when savvy players pilot aggro to capitalize on suboptimal three color builds.

I think you're absolutely right. I would certainly play the list with Searing Blood at the start of the format. But for the purposes of brewing, I want to think of the 60 cards that are best in a relative vacuum and then adjust for specific metas. It helps me conceptualize what I want my decks to be and what I want them to do more easily.

[Tyrael]

I'm definitely going to be playing a few Nyx-Fleece Rams mb

[magicdownunder]

[deck]Jeskai Counterburn[/deck]

I don't think Mantis Rider fits the counterburn shell very well because its such an easy target (we're basically threat-less, thus DtR is a problem), thus I'm going try resistance threats backed up with burns and counters.

[Valdarith]

I don't think Deflecting Palm is where you want to be if you're going for a counterburn deck. It doesn't actually do anything in the deck. It seems like your deck is confused on whether it wants to be burn or control.

[magicdownunder]

I don't think Deflecting Palm is where you want to be if you're going for a counterburn deck. It doesn't actually do anything in the deck. It seems like your deck is confused on whether it wants to be burn or control.

Sounds fair, I do like the creature approach which you guys have taken up - not sure how viable counterburn will be (most likely be horrible) maybe cut the Palm for CTTR or Card Draw.

[Khaospawn]

I don't think Deflecting Palm is where you want to be if you're going for a counterburn deck. It doesn't actually do anything in the deck. It seems like your deck is confused on whether it wants to be burn or control.

[Valdarith]

I don't think Deflecting Palm is where you want to be if you're going for a counterburn deck. It doesn't actually do anything in the deck. It seems like your deck is confused on whether it wants to be burn or control.

Sounds fair, I do like the creature approach which you guys have taken up - not sure how viable counterburn will be (most likely be horrible) maybe cut the Palm for CTTR or Card Draw.

Not enough Mountains for CTTR. I think Banishing Light is fine.

To clarify, you have to be running a VERY specific kind of deck for Deflecting Palm to be any good,
and your deck isn't it. You want all your cards to effect the board state, and Deflecting Palm only helps to race, which your deck is terrible at.

[BlakLanner]

There is definitely a viable deck somewhere near this configuration. Where on the spectrum between counterburn, tempo, and control is the real question. I think we need to bash together a few decks on Cockatrice to figure it out.

Definitely not enough mountains for Chains. I do like the Deflecting Palm somewhere in the 75. There will be a lot more creature combat this season and it does do a reasonable Lightning Helix impression fairly often. I have been having luck with Mantis Rider. It doesn't have the recursion that Phoenix had but kill spells are more expensive as well.

We need to sort out the deck's identity before we nitpick on card selection. I imagine much of the framework will be the same though.

[LP, of the Fires]

RE card evaluations: one thing I learned from last year of high level magic play(I've met a LOT of people and have had some pretty unique conversations) is that no matter how much sense your argument makes and how bad a card looks, nothing compares to actually playing with it.

Mindswipe and deflecting palm are examples: I still think both cards are marginal to bad, but I've also played with neither and it's foolish to not acknowledge that they might be playable.

Probably not, but definitely worth playtesting because the cost is very low, and if you're wrong and the card is good, you'll be happily rewarded. I'll take game wins over the satisfaction of knowing that I'm right.

I say this mostly because I had a fairly large argument that's sort of till going on facebook(private page, no you're not invited) on Ashcloud phoenix with people who didn't play the card and think it's terrible. When I first saw the
card I thought it was terrible. Then I thought of a shell for it and it's amazing.

Keep an open mind children. Happy brewing.

[Khaospawn]

facebook(private page, no you're not invited)

Private, huh? I'm gonna make my own private group! With blackjack. And hookers.


You know what? Forget the private group. And the blackjack.

[Tyrael]

It seems like your deck is confused on whether it wants to be burn or control.

Isn't this basically the reason counterburn is a poor deck in general?

[BlakLanner]

Counterburn is a tempo deck. It requires the right mix of threats and answers as well as the proper environment to thrive. I think it stands a chance in the upcoming Standard but only testing will prove it.

[Jasper]

Let's break it all down, and come to some sort of consensus, as to which deck has the highest chance of success in a wide-open meta. I have been testing LP's list so far and enjoying it, so I'm pretty convinced I'll be playing some sort of Jeskai at the $5k the day after KTK release.

Creatures:
Firedrinker Satyr, ah yes, old reliable stuck around. Are we the beatdown? Do we want to be? Most importantly, can we afford the life loss caused by this little dude.
Monastery Swiftspear, one of my favorites from the new set. Add's value to burn spells if we're just being the beatdown, but also acts as a powerful blocker when combined with burn.
Satyr Firedancer, still here to give us some value. In a set that looks to be dominated by solid creatures, will he be the satyr we need to survive?
[card]Mantis Rider[/card:
3prikrje], our new American overlord. Good on the offense and the defense, most likely an automatic 4-of.
Goblin Rabblemaster, certainly sends a message. This card declares that we intend to race, and we intend to win.
Stormbreath Dragon, nothing more needs to be said than the name. With so much removal being white, he's still capable of putting in work, if not more.
[card]Narset

Gods:
Keranos, God of Storms, always an option, providing bolts or free cards, for that sweet sweet card advantage.
Ephara, God of the Polis, a card advantage engine, but will we be running enough creatures to trigger her? Fuck the Polis, I say. 4-mana do-nothings that don't provide anything until the beginning of turn 6 aren't my idea of fun.
Purphoros, God of the Forge, another God who requires creatures, and more of them. I don't think he's welcome in our
clubhouse, unless we're talking about playing cards that make tokens, such as 3-Goblin thing, or 2-Soldier thing.

Spells, the things we always want more of:
Stoke the Flames, we want 4, end of story.
Jeskai Charm, pretty sure we want 4. All modes have their uses.
Lightning Strike, another card we probably want 4 of, but is it wise to play a spell that's limited to 3 damage, in a world dominated by X/4's and larger?
Magma Jet, less than ideal damage, but good for the power of Scry.
Deflecting Palm, much disputed. I think this card is poised to be in the main deck, given the amount of creature based strategies. Entirely reactive, but I think that's what this deck is all about anyway. You can guarantee to see plenty of free wins and blowouts, with the number of Polukranos appearing increasing every day.
Mindswipe,
the card we need, or the card we deserve? Our own counterspell that can kill, but is it playable? Certainly no more than 3, probably closer to 2, if the deck even wants it.
Steam Augury, oh hey, you still exist. With so many redundant cards in the deck, this looks poised to be an effective 'draw 2, instant speed, for 4'. Also works nicely with our next card in the list.
Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time, draw spells that scale the longer the game drags on.
Chained to the Rocks, great removal, but do we have enough rocks?
Disdainful Stroke, does much of the same things that Negate does. Sideboard, or Mainboard? It deals with many of the cards that give burn spells problems.
Anger of the Gods, if this isn't in your Sideboard, I'm not sure you know what you are doing.
[card]
Winterflame[/card], not quite Electrolyze, but it may find a use this Standard, who knows.
Singing Bell Strike, Suspension Field, Banishing Light, will enchants still be reliable as removal, or will there be enough enchantment hate to put it to an end?

Walkers:
Chandra, Pyromaster, the queen remains for another rotation.
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, inherently powerful, the questions seems to not be whether we run him, rather, how many.

Lands:
Basics are good.
Temples, relying on the power of Scry, but can we afford lands that come in tapped?
Pains, untapped and versatile, if you're losing life from one of these, it was probably worth it.
Fetches, or should I say Fetch. The only one we have is for 2 of our secondary colors.
Mana Confluence, gets it's own section, but I don't think anyone cares. Not
worth running with so many better options.
3-color/2-color taplands. Are we this desperate?

[Jasper]

And when is the damn card image gatherer going to be updated for us?

[LP, of the Fires]

Swiftspear seems like a naturally powerful tool in this deck, but he DOES require you to use your spells on your turn which is annoying.

[BlakLanner]

A fairly good summary, Jasper. Just a few additions:

Searing Blood: A solid card, but will there be enough creatures we can kill with it?
Other counterspells: Most are conditional. How much do we really need them to execute our plans?
[card]Elspeth, Sun's Champion[/card]: A solid card if we want to play a grindier game. Deals with all the big creatures coming to eat us. Very expensive to cast.
Nyx-Fleece Ram: Brick walls a lot of creatures, gains life to help us race. Probably worthy of sideboard slots if we see a lot of smaller creatures running around.

[Jasper]

All things worth considering. Whenever this get's upgraded into a [Primer], whoever writes the actual primer can compile the lists of cards and all that jazz. Here is my current testing list:

[deck]
Creatures 14
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Mantis Rider
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Walkers 2
2 Sarkhan, Dragon Speaker

Spells 20
3 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Jeskai Charm
4 Stoke the Flames
2 Steam Augury
1 Treasure Cruise

Lands 24
8 Mountain
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Shivan Reef
[/deck]

No sideboard, since I'm not even sure what I want mainboard yet. Currently trying to figure out if these draw spells are worth it, whether I want Rabblemaster at all, and if I need to be running maindeck counter magic. Also debating if I can afford to play Scrylands, when a lot of these cards really really need to be cast on curve.

[Tyrael]

A fairly good summary, Jasper. Just a few additions:

Searing Blood: A solid card, but will there be enough creatures we can kill with it?
Other counterspells: Most are conditional. How much do we really need them to execute our plans?
[card]Elspeth, Sun's Champion[/card]: A solid card if we want to play a grindier game. Deals with all the big creatures coming to eat us. Very expensive to cast.
Nyx-Fleece Ram: Brick walls a lot of creatures, gains life to help us race. Probably worthy of sideboard slots if we see a lot of smaller creatures running around.

Searing Blood is worth maindecking if you are also planning on running something like Swan Song. This 'combo'
might just be a little too cute for our own good though.

[Valdarith]

It seems like your deck is confused on whether it wants to be burn or control.

Isn't this basically the reason counterburn is a poor deck in general?

Not really. Take UWR control in Modern for example. It's essentially a counterburn deck but it actually plays threats that are difficult to answer (Restoration Angel, Celestial Colonnade). Its burn spells (Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Electrolyze, and Snapcaster Mage if we're being liberal) affect the board and are extremely efficient at what they do. Cards like Deflecting Palm and Mindswipe fit neither
criteria. MDU's deck has the threat part down (Narset, Keranos, Sarkhan, Elspeth) but plays conditional cards like Deflecting Palm and Mindswipe as four-ofs which severely hinders the deck's efficiency.

This is why I happen to think a more proactive strategy with Mantis Rider and Rabblemaster is the way to go. The format has very little efficient removal which caters to proactive strategies. A true counterburn deck will have a VERY hard time thriving in that kind of environment.

[Tyrael]

Thanks for your perspective Valdarith

I think UWR control is a deck because it has access to many of the best spells in the format (lightning bolt/path of exile/cryptic command/mana leak) in conjunction with snapcaster mage which makes it just incredibly resilient. I think the power of that deck is just on another plane entirely.

But I do believe you are making an incredibly valid point here: Jeskai has the potential of being a top tier midrange deck thanks to its diversity of strong threats.

I'm still trying to make the mana work so that I can play Brimaz in here somewhere...

[BlakLanner]

I have fallen off the Firedancer train for now. Big creatures are too big and little creatures pose little threat.

[deck]Raka Counterburn[/deck]

Mana base needs some work. I am overloaded on blue but worry about having UU for a few things. Big note for Mindswipe: Even if they pay the mana to stop the counter, they still take the damage. That turns it into [
card]Volcanic Geyser[/card] with an additional upside. Still only a 2-of at most.

[Tyrael]

I don't think I'd ever play a burn list without Magma Jet while it's legal

[LP, of the Fires]

Your mana-base cannot support 2 nullify.