(POST ROTATION) JESKAI BURN

[Kaitscralt]

This deck actually looks good, kudos on sticking Mantis Rider in burn when everyone else was waiting for some creature-tempo shell to emerge. You need to smooth out the numbers though and probably drop Mindswipe from this list entirely.

[Jasper]

On the topic of Deflecting Palm...

I'm just going to come out and say that I like it. Granted, it can only be used against a deck that runs a damage based win condition. It just kind of lets you win any sort of race scenario. Game 2 and 3 they may even be forced to play around it, and not want to attack with their big fatty out of fear that you just Deflect it and kill them. This card needs testing, but I'm going to say that I believe, at the very least, that it deserves some sideboard slots, if not in the main.

[Tyrael]

Couldn't it be fine as a surprise 1-of sideboard card vs monster-esque decks? Just thinking out loud here.

[Khaospawn]

it's not a card someone should be told to "go back to Salvation" for wanting to try.

Except that nobody said that.

But I did say this:

At best, Palm will be a niche sideboard card

[Khaospawn]

Re: Mantis Rider

I actually had to go search that card up. That thing is fucking insane!

[zenbitz]

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12049 - second deck. I don't think this is much better. Swan Song + Searing Blood was cute though.

Mindswipe and Deflecting Palm look like cards that swap in vs. control or aggro, respectively. Having 4x of each would be kinda funny in a mirror match.

I think in general, 3 color burn/tempo is going to be dicey. It might have to wait for allied pain lands. And a shock reprint. What about Rx artifacts?

[BiddingMaster]

it's not a card someone should be told to "go back to Salvation" for wanting to try.

Except that nobody said that.

But I did say this:

At best, Palm will be a niche sideboard card

lol khaos wrote that if i was going to vehemently defend my descisions while im getting "sound advice" that a card is bad is why i should go back to mtgsally. It
had nothing to do with a card choice.

[BiddingMaster]

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12049 - second deck. I don't think this is much better. Swan Song + Searing Blood was cute though.

Mindswipe and Deflecting Palm look like cards that swap in vs. control or aggro, respectively. Having 4x of each would be kinda funny in a mirror match.

I think in general, 3 color burn/tempo is going to be dicey. It might have to wait for allied pain lands. And a shock reprint. What about Rx artifacts?

lolz i did it first. rx artifacts in this tempo game seems like loosing tempo just to gain it back later. at the cost of the damage that might have just won you a game by a small margin but this kind of deck works off of small margins.

[Khaospawn]

When you ask for advice on a deck and then choose to ignore solid evaluations and also choose to adamantly defend your theoretical brew choices, it makes me think that you're probably better off posting Sally

Close enough.

You fail to engage the guy in a discussion regarding your own arbitrary assessment of "reaction cards are bad" and resort to "whatever, run bad cards if you want" instead.

RW Burn runs plenty of reactionary cards:
1. Searing Blood
2. Chained to the Rocks
3.
Banishing Light
4. Wear // Tear
5. Glare of Heresy
6. Mizzium Mortars

OP keeps his cool the entire time and DTR just DTRs him into resigning that the idea sucks and he should just go try something else.

This is why these forums suck for deck building and card discussion. It's a Tom Ross/Zem echo chamber circle jerk.

Excuse me for not being able to write a detailed response from my phone while I'm busy at work. However, if you actually bothered to read what I wrote rather than just skim over it, you'll see that I said that Palm is entirely a reactive card, dependent on not just what the opponent plays, but what the opponent decides to do. And unlike hard removal, it doesn't even remove the threats on the table, so it's effectiveness ranges from sucky to possibly a one-in-a-million blowout shot. The results aren't even guaranteed, unlike most reactive cards.

I was also not going to debate with somebody over the
actual definition of what a reactionary card is. Bidding Master is a big boy and knows what they are. I'm not going to hold his hand. He wanted opinions on the list and he got mine: Palm is bad for this kind of deck and is, at best, strictly a narrow a sideboard card.

However...I will say that after rereading my posts, they do come off a little passive-aggressive. But then again, I have a history of this kind of thing, so back off.

I do appreciate your list, but aside from the Searing Blood and Chained to the Rocks, the rest of those cards are sideboard mainstays. Searing Blood sees maindeck play because it's a metagame call in a field of aggro and it does further Burn's game plan by dealing damage and removing a threat. It still applies pressure and it's rarely dead because even the most strict Control decks even play Mutavault or Elspeth (
tokens). Chained to the Rocks (like I mentioned) is a necessary evil at times because it can handle cards that Burn has a hard time dealing with. Currently, it's been moved to the sideboard since the release of Stoke the Flames. But, I'm glad to see that you've done some sort of homework on Burn decks. I actually didn't even think you played Magic.

Lastly, if you think these forums suck, well, what are you doing to make them any better?

[LP, of the Fires]

Internet is fucking with me so facebook isn't really acessible, but I'm board as shit so I guess I don't mind repeating myself.

Deflecting palm is a lava spike. It would be a lie to say that the card never deals damage because if you're playing a tempo/burn game, what you can't searing blaze, you will be attacked by. I would expect this card to average 2-5 damage which is reasonable. The question is do you have enough burn to play burn? If you don't, this card is terrible because it's just a lava spike. And lava spikes are terrible.

Here's why; they don't affect the game at all until you kill your opponent. If you cast 6 lava spikes taking your opponent to won, but don't kill them, you did absolutely nothing to affect the game(other then maybe making your opponent play more aggressively or conservatively). A lightning strike that kills a creature is a 1-for-1 trade. A lightning strike to the face is a 0-for-1
unless it kills them(or leads to killing them) in which case it's the best card in magic. When you don't have a critical density of burn, it's not worth playing since it's so narrow.

This is why mindswipe is terrible. The cheapest price to counter a spell is 1UR which may or may not be sufficent to cunter something and deal 1 damage. If you change the R to U you get dissolve and ALWAYS get to counter the spell. If you're behind, having an overpriced soft counter is not where you want to be and as a burn deck, you're often at parity or playing catchup because by nature you aren't adding much to the board. In situations like this, your opponents advantage can snowball in the face of your mindswipe mana because they have a threat on board and can afford to play spells. If you are priced into spending large amounts of mana on mindswipe to deal with there threat, you likely are pigeonholed into 1 spell a turn while they can(potentially) play multiple in additon to having whatever threat it is in play.
n
In such a scenario, assuming you can't answer said threat, as a psuedo burn deck, you probably have the exist strategy of throwing all your burn at the face. What however happens though when they are sufficently ahead and don't have to play spells while you sit on mindswipe? HOLY SHIT THIS CARD SUCKS! It doesn't catch you up, and it's horrible while behind. If there was a restoration angel in the format, this card would be semi-reasonable, and still likely terrible. As is...not seeing it.

Deflecting palms on the other hand is closer to playable. Even if you're behind, you likely get to use it since the way 99% of decks take over when ahead is by attacking, you can always cash it in for some life and a couple points of damage. The downside is that you NEED to make the damage count as without a way to convert it into lethal, you effectively played lava spike and healing salve which is actually infinitely worse then lightning helix. Helix deals with the threat, palm merely delays it.

I haven't
looked over the decklist thoroughly and have no real opinion YET, but I figured I'd throw my 2 cents in about the cards everyone's been making a fuss out of.

[LP, of the Fires]

Having Actually looked at the deck, I'd do this:

4 Mantis Rider
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker

4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Jeskai Charm
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
2 Magma Spray
1 Treasure Cruise

24 Lands

[LP, of the Fires]

The manabase is actually very hard to build because you'll end up with an excess of red sources due to needing so many mountains for chained to the rocks. It's possible that the deck can't support 4. On the other hand, the deck is also basically mono-red so maybe it's not an issue at all. You realistically need a max of 14 blue and white sources which is probably doable.

[LP, of the Fires]

4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Island
8 mountain
2 Frontier Bivouac
2 Temple of Triumph
2 Temple of Epiphany
2 Mana Confluence

[Khaospawn]

How the fuck do you pronounce that Frontier BivoooooouuuuuaaaauoUSAOSIJA SODHCJNOSdcnskjdncasdfncs?

[LP, of the Fires]

When you ask for advice on a deck and then choose to ignore solid evaluations and also choose to adamantly defend your theoretical brew choices, it makes me think that you're probably better off posting Sally

Close enough.

You fail to engage the guy in a discussion regarding your own arbitrary assessment of "reaction cards are bad" and resort to "whatever, run bad cards if you want" instead.

RW Burn runs plenty of reactionary cards:
1. Searing Blood
2. Chained to the Rocks
3.
Banishing Light
4. Wear // Tear
5. Glare of Heresy
6. Mizzium Mortars

OP keeps his cool the entire time and DTR just DTRs him into resigning that the idea sucks and he should just go try something else.

This is why these forums suck for deck building and card discussion. It's a Tom Ross/Zem echo chamber circle jerk.

Regardless of what your point is, if you use shitty examples, nobody cares. Searing blood is barely reactionary because it's both removal and it advances your game plain. Chained to the rocks is HARD removal. The rest of the cards are SB fodder.

I'm also of the opinion that it's fine for people to be hyper critical. I prefer brutal honesty to lying telling me jank is good. Calling it a hero worship circle jerk is tall talk from someone who can't even from a proper argument.

Your hypocrisy is also outstanding. You talk about how aweful people are by not being encouraging and yet all you do is spout negativity about the people who provide the lions
share of content, recruiting, and forum activity while making the excellent contribution of your foul presence.

You've been a great help.

[Khaospawn]

I actually like that manabase a lot, LP.

[LP, of the Fires]

Since I forgot this, FOR THE RECORD, I'm not against deflecting palm as a card as it's a fairly unique affect and I would like to see it in action in the context of this format.

Most every deck has some 4/5 power beater they're trying to kill you with so it should be live most of the time. The problem is that I don't think this deck kills fast enough to take advantage of palm. That, and it's VERY bad vs. discard, more then normally and thoughtseize despite it's absence from most of my brews is still probably one of the 5 best cards in the format.

[LP, of the Fires]

I do it for Science baby.

[Keru_Shiri]

I see Deflecting Palm as being closer to Act of Treason, in terms of use. "Borrowing" your opponents biggest creature to get that last bit of damage in.

[LP, of the Fires]

I actually encourage everyone to try my deck. I think it's very good. Replace the shitty treasure trove with the 4th magma jet and you have a deck.

[BiddingMaster]

I think we can put the deflecting palm and mindswipe debate to rest. Until the format is defined, who knows what will be a good build or a bad one. This is just where im starting off with my metagame in mind. I expecting large tap out style midrange decks to be the go to decks that people are going to immediatley see as good. The reason being is that in block thats kind of what happened and courser/caryatid are going to define the format. I just want to hold up mana with mindswipe so that when they tap out to play their nissas or whatever we just counter and deal some damage to buy us draw steps to set up our lands so we can start unloading spells into their face. This is also why I think deflecting palm will be good. Id like to buy time to get more lands so I can sequence my spells in a way that just kills them instead of blindly trying to race my opponent. Id rather play a game where I get to try to determine the outcome
more than just playing burn spells. Im not looking to count to 20 and the game be over, I want to actually be able to interact with my opponent on a deeper lvl. Everyone is eventually going to make their own decklist that plays to their strengths. I talked to lazerburn about this and why so many people play the same archetype but never get close to having the same deck card for card but each of them do well. I think is because you need to warp your deck to fit your individual needs. Thanks lp for providing a decklist. I was hoping to be able to find room for sarkhan but I was not sure how good it would be because we have almost no creatures so against black decks it can just die sometimes though 5 mana haste and cant die in combat or burn spells is appealing. This new format could easilly hate out mindswipe but ill run it until it proves worthless. its not like losing a few fnms because of it will break my bank anyway.

[BiddingMaster]

Im going to say this with the least amount of venom I can hold back. Noone on this forum needs to talk to anyone else the way we have done so far on this thread. Its poison and does neither of us any good. I personally do not like where this is going and im personaly getting pissed off at the lack of respect im seeing towards other members of the forum and myself. Im not a child or a fucking dog and I will not be treated as such. I understand your frustration maverick but that does not give you the right to basically call this forum useless. If it is then why waste your time which is money to most people posting here. I do not appreciate the increasing amount of venom being thrown at me from khaospawn and I certainly dont think lp should have reacted to maverick the way he did. I get that we all come here with our opinions that we have reasons for defending and we have egos to protect but goddamnit we are diestoremoval.com.
We came here for one reason. To be better at magic and engage in discussions about cards and discuss deck strategies. Ive been guilty as well on this thread and others, ive been prone to downright disrepecting people and their ideas and their very self worth. Its easy to be rude to eachother because we sit states, countries, and continents away but if we were all sitting in a room together i doubt we would act so childishly towards eachother. This thread in turning into a shit throwing contest and im sick of it. It would like to come here and have an adult conversation with people over card choices and strategy. That is all

[BiddingMaster]

This deck actually looks good, kudos on sticking Mantis Rider in burn when everyone else was waiting for some creature-tempo shell to emerge. You need to smooth out the numbers though and probably drop Mindswipe from this list entirely.

I actually built this deck the way nicholas heel said was one of the three ways decks are built. You can build around a card, you can build around a synergy or you can go back into the past and recreate a simillar deck. I just took what we were loosing from burn with ravnica and adding cards with simillar effects from the new set. As far as im concerned this deck belongs to all of us. Its not my deck because countless other have spent many hours into the morning testing and playing modo and talking about standard
burn. I would not be where I am today without the help of this forum and the great minds we have assembled.

[Khaospawn]

I do not appreciate the increasing amount of venom being thrown at me from khaospawn

Dafuq did I just read?

[Tyrael]

How do you guys feel about a 2-2 split between Sarkhan and Chandra mainboard?

Khaos: Bivouac is pronounced phonetically ^^

[Jasper]

I do not appreciate the increasing amount of venom being thrown at me from khaospawn

Dafuq did I just read?

Change your avatar to a sneaky snake.

S0 VEN0M0US d00d.

[Khaospawn]

Khaos: Bivouac is pronounced phonetically ^^

That doesn't help!

[Tyrael]

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4gAB8cs6wk

[BrainsickHater]

Why is the deck running Frontier Bivuoac instead of Mystic Monastery?

[BiddingMaster]

Why is the deck running Frontier Bivuoac instead of Mystic Monastery?

lifegain i guess

[magicdownunder]

Thread has been amusing - how are you guys justifying 4x Searing Blood or 4x Deflecting Palm main-deck in an unknown meta?

[BiddingMaster]

after some consideration im actually going to put eidolon of the great revel into the maindeck and switch out satyr firedancers.

[BiddingMaster]

Thread has been amusing - how are you guys justifying 4x Searing Blood or 4x Deflecting Palm main-deck in an unknown meta?

we take what was good from block and extrapolate from there. We dont really know 100% for sure what the meta will be but id rather not sit on my thumbs and wait for the pros to build my deck for me whil i watch everyone else play fnm. I want to play magic and when the format becomes defines ill retune the deck. gotta start from somewhere ya know.

[LP, of the Fires]

Thread has been amusing - how are you guys justifying 4x Searing Blood or 4x Deflecting Palm main-deck in an unknown meta?

Cause Yolo son. Also wanting a critical density of burn spells.

Since you're hear, what would you suggest in place of chained to the rocks. It's jacking my mana up and I need some filler. I'm fully willing to play 4 chains and 2/3 mountains in my sideboard.

[LP, of the Fires]

Eidolon has also shown himself to be VERY BAD in this new format. You basically always take more damage from him then your opponent and since the creatures are so big, most opposing threats punish you heavily for it.

[magicdownunder]

I don't really have much for hope for burn in the new standard - I can't really see it dealing well against all the lifegain cards etc: Siege Rhino, Butcher of the Horde and Courser (esp. since phoenix and skullcrack are gone).

I'll rather just go big (SBD, Mantis and friends.... hell maybe just two colours maybe better) run 25 lands and just burn as additional reach/removal rather then the main theme (kinda like P.Sully's Big Boros deck aka out old Rx Aggro thread).

P.S. I agree about Revels - I think Gx will be huge.

[LP, of the Fires]

This burn deck has actually tested fairly well, but I can respect that opinion.

I wonder if steam augry is playable.

[magicdownunder]

This burn deck has actually tested fairly well, but I can respect that opinion.

What were you testing against LP? I havn't done any testing on my end so its just pure theory-crafting. . .

I think Craig Wescoe's Jeskai Counter Burn approach is quite interesting though http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12049.

[LaZerBurn]

Mr Wescoe's list from TCG http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12049

[deck]Creatures [4]
4 Mantis Rider

Planeswalkers [4]
4 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker

Spells [28]
4 Deflecting Palm
4 Jeskai Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Mindswipe
4 Searing Blood
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Swan Song

Lands [24]
4 Battlefield Forge
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Mystic Monastery
4 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Epiphany
2 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard [15]
4 Anger of the Gods
4 Banishing Light
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Satyr Firedancer
[/deck]

[LaZerBurn]

Lol - didn't know you posted the link MDU