[Primer] Boros Burn

[Whole]

Hmm Flamespeaker vs Reprisal vs Pillar is interesting. I do want to make that change, but I'm not sure what I want. Both are good against GW, but Flamespeaker is good vs mono blue and small aggro while Reprisal / Pillar is good vs Green Devotion, Mono Black, and Orzhov Control. I guess I could do Pillar and still bring it in vs Mono Blue. Would y'all bring in a single Pillar vs Mono Blue?

[Purp]

@Whole - I think you would be ok bringing a single pillar in vs Mono U (If I had only 3 mortars I would, if I had 4 mortars I would leave pillar int he SB). I would say it also depends on how you play your Mono B matchup. If I only had access to 3 mortars, I would want 3 flamespeakers. I would really want 4 mortars though, its great vs GW,, mono green, junk, monsters, boss slligh and Mono U.

I think with your list, -1 Stoke +1 MM main. -1 Toil, +2nd reprisal/1 pillar.

But if you want to play Stoke, -1 Toil +1 Flamespeaker

[Kaitscralt]

I would expect a lot of control at Syracuse

[BlakLanner]

I would expect a lot of control at Syracuse

If that is the case, I may have to put the FDS back in.

[deck]
1 Chained to the Rocks
3 Firedrinker Satyr
3 Satyr Firedancer
2 Banishing Light
2 Hushwing Gryff
2 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
[/deck]

I lose Wear/Tear in this version and it honestly terrifies me. I may have no choice, though.

[NotARobot]

I'm not sold on pillar vs mono u, but I've been struggling with that matchup so maybe I'm wrong... I guess it's a decent answer to out of control cloudfin or an active thassa...

[Whole]

Thinking about it, I'm not too hot on Pillar vs Mono Blue either. So for me, I think it comes down to whether it's better to have a sideboard card for Mono Blue (Flamespeaker) or a card for Midrange & Mono Black/Orzhov (Pillar/Reprisal) while both are good vs GW. Thoughts?

Personally, I feel confident vs Mono Black. Devotion is usually favorable, but with a bunch of people on Mono Green hype train, it might be useful to have another card for them and the odd monsters list (Monsters is 50/50, but sometimes they play & board incorrectly post board giving us an edge). Not sure how Orzhov control is, I'm testing it today. Vs Mono Blue, I'm usually pretty confident against them, but sometimes they have sick sideboard tech for us and it's always nice to have something that goes under Negate and Dispel from them.

[Purp]

I would expect a lot of control at Syracuse

If that is the case, I may have to put the FDS back in.

[deck]
1 Chained to the Rocks
3 Firedrinker Satyr
3 Satyr Firedancer
2 Banishing Light
2 Hushwing Gryff
2 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
[/deck]

I lose Wear/Tear in this version and it honestly terrifies me. I may have no choice, though.

4 Chains Main. Add 4th 1 drop.

[HK1997]

I wouldnt play pillar vs monoU, if you are on the MDU-list.
Post board you already bring in +2 BL, +1 Stoke, +2-3 Chandra, +3 MM. Thats 17 cards total (with cttr and WLH), that can answer Frostburn Weird. I count Chandra as well because she turns 4 LS into a kill for Frostbourn Weird. An out of control Thassa or Cloudfin should be as rare as finding a black pearl, and when it DOES happen, hope that chains or 2 for 1s is enough. Dont Sideboard for rare board states - That leads to dead cards in more cases than not.

[Lightning_Dolt]

@ Whole: No reason to play guildgates anymore.

@ blaklanner: UW is next to impossible vs a competent pilot without sideboard cards. I actually believe it to be the hardest match up of the popular meta decks. Make sideboard room.

[Whole]

Man why people gotta scoop before you can go off with Flamespeaker. Yea I know you're not gonna come back after I just +2'd you, but let me have a little fun please.

[BlakLanner]

4 Chains Main. Add 4th 1 drop.

4th Chains main over what, a Shock or a Stoke?

[Purp]

Definitley over a Stoke. I think 4 WLH/1 Stoke is the right numbers as well. NoRobot went with 3/2 and commented how he is def switching back. I too run 4 wlh, and cutting them for Stoke is not worth it.

[magicdownunder]

That comeback vs GW from 2 life was great Whole, doesn't GW run those 5/5 wurms anymore? NVM I saw one in your first match - wow... flamespeaker was strong vs them (more so then I expected).

[NotARobot]

Where are you seeing his game?

[BlakLanner]

And here I really like Stoke, enough to run 3 and cut a Helix to do it. It hits BBoV and SBD, it often costs less and no white. I will certainly take it into consideration though.

MDU: They most certainly do run Advent. I got hammered by a few yesterday.

[Whole]

I feel bad for that GW player, he was just getting wrecked at every corner. I forgot what game it was, but when I swung in with all the elementals to bait an Advent so I could Chain it main phase 2 was brutal. Sure I'll trade 2 free 1/1s for a Voice Token and an Advent. I have a soft spot for GW because it was the first deck I played with (started in Theros)

edit: Also, how do you view other's games and are there replays on mtgo?

[BlakLanner]

There is no way to view other people's replays on MTGO any more. That is one of the reasons I am streaming now. I need people to critique my play.

[LP, of the Fires]

Maybe it's Because I play control also, but the burn vs. Uw matchup isn't that bad. It's hard to play properly, but It's at worst slightly unfavorable game one and that's only if you draw multiple chains.

[magicdownunder]

You window games, wait until they're complete and watch them later (it works for a very short while before wizard deletes them).

[Elricity]

Man why people gotta scoop before you can go off with Flamespeaker. Yea I know you're not gonna come back after I just +2'd you, but let me have a little fun please.

Now that you mention it, there are very few games that they let me bring them to 0 after a successful flamespeaker connect.

I can't really blame them.

[magicdownunder]

Jumped into a DE today with BlakLanner ending up going 2-2 because I didn't really read up on the new archetypes, while it never fun losing your winning streak I felt that the losses against G Devo and Jund Walkers has prepared me for them in the future. That said - I manage to redeem myself by going 3-0 beating in an SE beating GB Devo, G Devo and GR Devo

[Elricity]

My loss today was to Jund walkers but I can't do much about it when I draw no lands or all lands. When I was able to play magic, I just pointed everything at his face. The curve on the deck is a wee slow if you kill Xenagos.

[Whole]

Yea I played Jund Walkers and it felt pretty easy. Just like Elricity said, other than Xenagos, they don't do anything.

[magicdownunder]

Yea I played Jund Walkers and it felt pretty easy. Just like Elricity said, other than Xenagos, they don't do anything.

I agree, though it MU is difficult if you misidentify them as Jund monsters or if you never heard of them before then end up boarding in all your usual removals just too watch them claw their way back up from 1 life .

[Whole]

True. I actually slow rolled the shit out of my game 1 vs Jund Walkers (had like 8 points of burn when he was at 4 or something) because I needed more info off his Courser. He only had Xenagos, main deck Rakdos Return, Courser, assorted removal and Dorks up to that point so I had to know if he just had a very shitty hand & draw or if it was something else. I see maindeck Liliana Vess a few turns later and it was ggs from there.

[Platypus]

I played against a Jund Walkers variant for the first time on Wednesday, and mistook it for Jund Monsters at first. So I boarded wrong, and promptly lost 0-2. And I held back on the burn. So yeah, I agree with the above views on Jund Walkers.

[HK1997]

I'm 3 and 0 vs Jund walkers so far. Seems like this deck was built without Boros burn in mind. So fucking weak to us.
It plays itself like burn in an eternal format. Ignore all planeswalkers, send everything to the face, and win. Even xenagos. The great thing about him is that he stays at 3 or 4 loyalty and can always be removed if things get out of hand, but in general a xenagos on T3 or T4 is much much much too slow to race us. If you have a YP on deck, he wont even attack with the tokens. This deck is shit imo. Just had a couple of seconds in the spotlight at the underwhelming SCG event and thats it. We wont see it around anymore soon.

Also I was lucky enough to catch the finals of that SCG so that I knew that the Jund Walkers deck would be coming to modo this week and was able to avoid mistaking it for midrange.

I like watching the Top 8 of every SCG event. It pretty much determines what flavor of the week you
will on into online for the next week or two.

[Valdarith]

The deck is far from shit. It destroys creature decks with ease which is every deck in the meta except UW and Burn. That's a really good place to be. I personally think the deck needs a lot of work but the archetype as a whole is very good. Do not underestimate it. As soon as the pilots find an optimized 75 it will tear ass.

[HK1997]

@Valdarith

I find it quite risky to play a deck that is basically a bye vs burn or UW control. Ok I find it downright stupid. You WILL face either deck in any larger event. Just like we cant really afford to be too weak against Jund midrange. Yes it is only 6-8% of the meta, but you cant just flat ignore it. Ok you CAN flat ignore it, but I wouldnt and I think playing Jund Walkers is about as sensible as playing 4 of Awaken the Ancient in my maindeck. Yay, its a card thats good against any deck without removal!

Perhaps my perception is off, but I see standard standing on 4 pillar decks, that have proven themselves over the past MONTHS: Bx devo, UW Control, Jund Monsters and Boros Burn. If you are brewing a deck and it takes any of those MUs as a bye, I wouldnt play it unless I'm just playing for fun. And as we have established before. Playing for fun isnt fun

[Platypus]

I don't know what exactly was in the 75 I played against, it was most likely a homebrewed variant. The player is a competent one, and I'm really rusty with my Standard and Boros Burn play. So that definitely was a factor in my match.

[Valdarith]

Your perception IS off. Walkers is not a bye for burn despite the two whole matches of experience you have with it.

[Valdarith]

You're also leaving out mono blue which is clearly tier one.

[HK1997]

Oh fuck yeah! Mono blue! Switch that with Jund

Actually it was 3 matches all going 2-0. Still the sample size of course is laughable to make a judgment empirical. But honestly I don't see how they win vs burn. When was the last time UW control beat you using elspeth ulti? And they actually have ways to protect her. Jund doesn't. No ulti of a plainswalkers should kill us vs Jund walkers and the normal triggers just affect creatures... how do they beat burn, besides us mistaking it for midrange when boarding?

[HK1997]

And it would be nice if you could add some reasoning with your counterpoint. At least I reference actual experience with a brand new matchup which you try to cheaply disqualify with.... even less, as in nothing. Bravo. Join the debating team already

[RedNihilist]

There's no reason to be so aggressive.
Going 2-0 for three times in a row is STILL too little of a game pool to be so definitive about the matchup.

[Valdarith]

I'm short when I'm posting from phone, so sorry if my posts come off wrong or lack the dialogue you seek. Nevertheless, Jund Walkers has a few options in beating burn. Resolving an early Courser helps because in general burn does not want that card to live a turn, so they're faced with spending their next turn either ignoring it or killing it and slowing their tempo, the former being a bit risky depending on the hand and boardstate. Beyond that, the deck runs two maindeck Rakdos's Return which absolutely obliterates Burn when cast for 3-4 mana. Liliana is no slouch either with her discard, especially if your Phoenix is on the board rather than in hand or graveyard. Eventually the deck wins with Garruk or Xenagos when you run out of gas.

The deck certainly isn't optimized for burn, but the matchup is a bit closer than you describe. I personally think the list needs optimization, such as maindeck Thoughtseize and
Scavenging Ooze and sideboard Duress, which would help it's UW and Burn matchups significantly.

[HK1997]

Np mate, sorry if I'm a bit abrasive - also typing on my phone while fighting traffic.
I agree with all you say in theory but resolving a courser and a rakdos for 4 has both happened to me in the MU. If he can't follow it up with a way to close out the game, the life and time he gains from us hitting it with a 4 msg spell was negligible. Rakdos even took away 2 relevant cards. In none of the matches did I feel a clock or pressure. Liliana discard comes too late because she is too expensive. By then I have done everything to empty my hand at his head because of RR in the first place. Some oozes and such would make this deck Vetter but I'm not talking about the potential of a shell of a deck. The deck that came 2nd last scg and that has been copied to the players on modo is, as it is being run, shit

[Platypus]

Your perception IS off. Walkers is not a bye for burn despite the two whole matches of experience you have with it.

Yeah, it didn't feel like a bye at all.

[HK1997]

@platypus how did he beat you g1? Would you have won, if you had known you are playing against walkers?
This is a serious question. My opponents cast Chandra, xenagos, Lilliana, vraska, courser, RR, caryatids and removals. The games didn't go long enough for them to tutor a BG garruk or have it in hand, so I don't know how good it is vs us. The other planeswalkers were all too slow or I was able to ping them every turn with chandra (Chandra vs Chandra). The only plainswalker I was at risk to looking to might have been vraska at ulti, if I had emptied my hand and not drawn burn for the kill for 4 turns...

[Elricity]

I've done a lot of playing vs the Naya version that was out a while back so here's my experience with walker decks in general plus the one whole match and theorycraft I played vs Jund last night.

Sideboarded magma spray from them makes the matchup quite a bit more difficult. You kind of want to keep your phoenixes because you know all your burn wants to go up if possible. Use shocks to counterspell spray if at all possible.

Young Pyromancer sucks lots of ass vs Chandra. Normally YP grinds out Jund but not when against that card advantage engine. Chandra is easier to ignore if she's not killing your cards. Chains are obviously inferior since they only hit one good creature and they pack so much enchantment removal. So, I recommend cutting one or the other for things like mortars and/or pillar or maybe just bring in more burn if you have Trouble on the play.

I disagree that you can ignore an early Xenagos.
Multiplicative damage is going to race you too fast unless your hand is all boros charms. You can ignore a single token for sure, but an unchecked Xenagos is a 4 turn clock at 20 life. It takes an impressive burn hand that can actually win turn 7.

Rakdos Returns punishes you for durdling. You can't afford to keep slow hands (like my 5 lander after getting upset mulling each game in the match).