[Primer] RDW

[Valdarith]

[deck]
Creatures (36)
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Frenzied Goblin
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Goblin Shortcutter
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Pyrewild Shaman
4 Rubblebelt Maaka

Spells (4)
4 Lightning Strike

Lands (20)
2 Mutavault
18 Mountain
[/deck]

Maybe this is just better?

[Valdarith]

I feel like it needs 1-2 Purphoros.

[Tyrael]

Yuck, Pyrewild Shaman

[Valdarith]

You're going to have to elaborate on that. Condescending one-liners are anything but helpful.

[Pyro Force]

This is my 60 currently

Creature (32)
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
4x Foundry Street Denizen
4x Frenzied Goblin
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
2x Goblin Shortcutter
4x Legion Loyalist
3x Pyrewild Shaman
4x Rakdos Cackler
3x Rubblebelt Maaka

Land (20)
18x Mountain
2x Mutavault

Instant (4)
4x Lightning Strike

Enchantment (4)
4x Madcap Skills

I have an unhealthy obsession with Madcap though, and i feel like it's way better than shortcutter, but i'm willing to admit I might be wrong there. It will force another non rabble/EotGR target for removal. I'm also thinking of replacing them with a 2 of Akroan Crusader.

With Purph, do you think we have the mana to support it? Not only that, it DEFINITELY feels like a win more, most games have been over long before I could play him and have him make a difference. It's usually play rubblemaster and they die next turn if they don't answer, and often even if they
do. Maybe sideboard material vs black?

[Valdarith]

I think Purphoros has potential against bigger decks if Frenzied Goblin gets removed or they just load up the board with too many fatties. It provides extra reach that could be necessary to close out some games, so I think I like it as a one-of.

I think running Madcap Skills forces you back into a heroic deck, in which case Hammerhand, Titan's Strength, etc would all be run and you'd want Akroan Crusader and Satyr Hoplite which would move you away from goblins and Rabblemaster and toward a deck with a lower curve (Boss Sligh).

[deck]
Creatures (31)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Akroan Crusader
4 Satyr Hoplite
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Legion Loyalist
3 Frenzied Goblin
4 Rubblebelt Maaka

Spells (12)
4 Hammerhand
4 Titan's Strength
4 Madcap Skills

Lands (17)
17 Mountain
[/deck]

[Pyro Force]

Don't know if I agree that you need to go heroic with it; while it's incredibly strong in that shell, it doesn't make it any less of a beating in ours. The end result is usually going to be the same as it would with Shortcutter; a creature won't be able to block for a turn. It'll normally come down right after they play their first creature so the threat of immediate removal is severely diminished, allowing it to at least get 3 extra damage in that turn, where as Shortcutter just puts another body out for the next attack. The 3 hasted damage makes up for it not extending to other creatures in most scenarios, and if it doesn't, it still forces an answer on what would could otherwise be a nonthreat (token, cackler, shortcutter after hitting board). I think Shortcutter gets better the longer the game goes, but that doesn't seem to be what I'd want this deck to be doing too often, since its already half a sligh shell and
Rabble means you're turning just about everything sideways every turn anyways whether you like it or not. Am I wrong here due to the 2 for 1 threat?

I actually haven't tweaked my sligh for the new cards yet so I can't comment on that shell, but your list looks like money. I'd like to put a fist or two in there, but I can't figure out where they'd go in the maindeck

[Valdarith]

I feel in the Rabblemaster deck that between Shortcutter, Frenzied Goblin, bloodrush creatures, and Legion Loyalist that Madcap Skills is a bit superfluous. If I'm running a card like Madcap Skills I'd prefer to get a bit of extra value out of the card. Otherwise it's just Lightning Strike at best and a 1 for 2 at worst.

Upon further reflection I think the full playset of Legion Loyalist may be necessary because it's SO good with Rabblemaster and berserk with both him and Foundry Street Denizen on the field.

[Pyro Force]

Lightning strike on a stick. The stick is important. To be completely honest, I haven't tested without it yet, I'll give it a go later as well and see how I like it. And yeah, loyalist is important just because it makes blocking so damn bad for them with the pump threat.

[LP, of the Fires]

Going Deep.

[deck]4 Legion Loyalist
4 Frenzied Goblin
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Goblin Shortcutter
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Pyreweild Shaman
3 Rubblebelt Maaka

4 Obelisk of Urd

4 Mutavault
18 Mountain[/deck]

Turn 1 Denizen>Turn 2 double one drop, or Burning-Tree+anything, attack for 3>Turn 3 Obelisk of Urd>Turn 4 attack for a billion.

Value.

[Tyrael]

You're going to have to elaborate on that. Condescending one-liners are anything but helpful.

I simply have bad memories of it

no need to get defensive

[Valdarith]

I'm not getting defensive, I'm only pointing out that some amount of reasoning needs to be included in responses to deck ideas. "Ew" doesn't cut it.

[Valdarith]

For instance,

Going Deep.

[deck]4 Legion Loyalist
4 Frenzied Goblin
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Goblin Shortcutter
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Pyreweild Shaman
3 Rubblebelt Maaka

4 Obelisk of Urd

4 Mutavault
18 Mountain[/deck]

Turn 1 Denizen>Turn 2 double one drop, or Burning-Tree+anything, attack for 3>Turn 3 Obelisk of Urd>Turn 4 attack for a billion.

Value.

I'm not sure I can get behind not attacking for an entire turn to get Obelisk in play, especially on the draw. Furthermore, Obelisk only pumps creature types, so Firedrinker Satyr, BTE, and Maaka would not benefit.

[LP, of the Fires]

A) makka's never getting cast as a creature 90%+ of the time.

B) If you're not under pressure to be the aggressor(aka, you aren't dying, or you're not in the time space against a control deck where they're threating jace/verdict/Elspeth), spending a turn to set up makes all a full 80% of your creatures must answer threats either tripling or doubling there power along with making your mutavaults more broken.

Think of it this way; How much mana is a red 3/3 or 4/3 worth? Generally 3/4 mana right? For the cost of skipping a turn, you're basically generating an extra 2/3 mana on every goblin you're casting for the remainder of the game in addition to what's already in play.

Look at Goblin Rabblemaster. He's a 2/2 for 3 that makes free 1/1s. The dorks he spits out are generally worth half a mana to a full mana and depending on the board either generate a couple damage or do nothing. With Obelisk in play, you get
a 4/4 for 3 mana that's generate a flinthoof boar or hasty golemn token if you will which is worth 3 mana. 3 mana of FREE VALUE every turn is insane.

The way normal red decks win is by converting a massive tempo advantage early game into wins with a hefty chunk of free damage backed up by burn.

The way Goblins wins games is similar only instead of burn, they use tribal synergy to cheat on the rates of their creatures which you can translate into cheating on mana. Obelisk is both better and worse then a goblin king type card. On the one hand, goblin lords are cheaper, have power and toughness and have "haste" in that you get immediate bonus from the anthem affect since you can still attack with your creatures. On the other hand, they're infinitely doom blade able which can lead to combat blowouts and/or lose of tempo.

Obelisk guarantees a loss of tempo but the pump effect is much more permanent and double what you're getting off of any lord affect. The downside is that it's bad in
multiples, but we're trying four because the first one in play is so backbreaking. It may not be the right way to go, but it's so powerful that we are morally obligated to try.

[Valdarith]

A) makka's never getting cast as a creature 90%+ of the time.

B) If you're not under pressure to be the aggressor(aka, you aren't dying, or you're not in the time space against a control deck where they're threating jace/verdict/Elspeth), spending a turn to set up makes all a full 80% of your creatures must answer threats either tripling or doubling there power along with making your mutavaults more broken.

Think of it this way; How much mana is a red 3/3 or 4/3 worth? Generally 3/4 mana right? For the cost of skipping a turn, you're basically generating an extra 2/3 mana on every goblin you're casting for the remainder of the game in addition to what's already in play.

Look at Goblin Rabblemaster. He's a 2/2 for 3 that makes free 1/1s. The
dorks he spits out are generally worth half a mana to a full mana and depending on the board either generate a couple damage or do nothing. With Obelisk in play, you get a 4/4 for 3 mana that's generate a flinthoof boar or hasty golemn token if you will which is worth 3 mana. 3 mana of FREE VALUE every turn is insane.

The way normal red decks win is by converting a massive tempo advantage early game into wins with a hefty chunk of free damage backed up by burn.

The way Goblins wins games is similar only instead of burn, they use tribal synergy to cheat on the rates of their creatures which you can translate into cheating on mana. Obelisk is both better and worse then a goblin king type card. On the one hand, goblin lords are cheaper, have power and toughness and have "haste" in that you get immediate bonus from the anthem affect since you can still attack with your creatures. On the other hand, they're infinitely doom blade able which can lead to combat blowouts and/or lose of tempo.

nObelisk guarantees a loss of tempo but the pump effect is much more permanent and double what you're getting off of any lord affect. The downside is that it's bad in multiples, but we're trying four because the first one in play is so backbreaking. It may not be the right way to go, but it's so powerful that we are morally obligated to try.

These are all fair points, and in a creature heavy meta I think this idea could be something to get behind. I do worry about the control matchup though as I eluded to in my response regarding being on the draw.

I do like how Burning-Tree Emissary effectively becomes Desperate Ritual on a 2/2 when it's used to convoke out an Obelisk. But if the plan is to beef up our dudes, do we really care about faltering with Frenzied Goblin? I think Rakdos Cackler could be a better option here despite it not being a goblin.

[Tyrael]

I'm not getting defensive, I'm only pointing out that some amount of reasoning needs to be included in responses to deck ideas. "Ew" doesn't cut it.

Your deck looks fine even though i'm not sure going all-in on the goblin theme is the 'best' (loose term when it comes to deckbuilding of course) way to go. I'm interested to see how the deck develops and I hope we're gonna see a bunch of different 'viable' small red decks. Either way, I applaud you both for your creativity.

[Valdarith]

I'm not getting defensive, I'm only pointing out that some amount of reasoning needs to be included in responses to deck ideas. "Ew" doesn't cut it.

Your deck looks fine even though i'm not sure going all-in on the goblin theme is the 'best' (loose term when it comes to deckbuilding of course) way to go. I'm interested to see how the deck develops and I hope we're gonna see a bunch of different 'viable' small red decks. Either way, I applaud you both for your creativity.

Agreed that there's a tension between how many goblins to run vs running ACTUAL
good cards. That's something I'm trying to sort out currently and I can see LP is going through the same. I fear LPs list may be too soft to control because it sacrifices speed for power, and Obelisk is relatively easy for them to interact with (counterspells, Detention Sphere, Banishing Light).

[Tyrael]

I'm not sure if the deck really needs more extra power to be honest. The Obelisk is obviously powerful but actually interacting with our opponent might be more important on turn 4.

I'm interested in taking LP's original list for a spin

[deck]4 Frenzied Goblin
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Striker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Rubblebelt Maaka
2 Goblin Shortcutter

2 Searing Blood
4 Lightning Strike

2 Mutavault
18 Mountain[/deck]

[Valdarith]

[deck]
Creatures (36)
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Legion Loyalist
3 Frenzied Goblin
4 Firefist Striker
3 Goblin Shortcutter
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Pyrewild Shaman
4 Rubblebelt Maaka

Spells (4)
1 Dynacharge
3 Lightning Strike

Lands (20)
2 Mutavault
18 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Electrickery
1 Dynacharge
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Bomber Corps
1 Hall of Triumph
[/deck]

Sideboard is a huge work in progress, but I know I want that sweet Bomber Corps tech for red mirrors and mono black aggro (and white weenie if that becomes a thing again).

[Tyrael]

Not sure if I'd want to leave the house without my precious BTE but that list looks rockin' good

[Valdarith]

Look at it this way - you're running so many one drops that you effectively DO have BTE in your list. That's why I'm not running more than two Mutavault. I want to cast two 2 drops on turn two consistently.

I'm also considering this:

[deck]
Creatures (36)
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Legion Loyalist
3 Frenzied Goblin
4 Firefist Striker
3 Goblin Shortcutter
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Pyrewild Shaman
4 Rubblebelt Maaka

Spells (4)
4 Boros Charm

Lands (20)
2 Mutavault
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Mana Confluence
8 Mountain
[/deck]

This would make the control matchup even more heavily favored in game one while allowing access to Chained to the Rocks, Wear / Tear, Glare of Heresy, etc postboard. Boros Charm is also cute with Goblin Rabblemaster if we're attacking with Legion Loyalist.

[Aodh]

Look at it this way - you're running so many one drops that you effectively DO have BTE in your list. That's why I'm not running more than two Mutavault. I want to cast two 2 drops on turn two consistently.

I'm also considering this:

[deck]
Creatures (36)
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Legion Loyalist
3 Frenzied Goblin
4 Firefist Striker
3 Goblin Shortcutter
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Pyrewild Shaman
4 Rubblebelt Maaka

Spells (4)
4 Boros Charm

Lands (20)
2 Mutavault
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Mana Confluence
8 Mountain
[/deck]

This would make the control matchup even more heavily favored in game one while allowing access to Chained to the Rocks, Wear / Tear, Glare of Heresy, etc postboard.
Boros Charm is also cute with Goblin Rabblemaster if we're attacking with Legion Loyalist.

I think that control is already so heavily-favored that you likely want Chained to the Rocks main with Boros Charm in the side for the rub-ins against control in the rest of the set. Is Rabblemaster that good? When playing all-in builds like this, I have never wanted to cast a 3-mana creature... That's three whole mana. I was also going to mention something about getting BTE into the deck, but I've reconsidered as long as the 1-drop count stays at 18+. I really like that BTE lets you get a FFS online turn-three without any follow-up play, but maybe there are enough falter effects that this is niche.

[Tyrael]

Aodh, Rabblemaster is actually incredible and as a whole it syngergises quite well with AIR's overall strategy (extra bodies to push batallion and free points of damage through blockers at a fast pace). It also combos really nice with Foundry Street Denizen for obvious reasons.

[Aodh]

Couldn't you just play 2 or 3 creatures instead of Rabblemaster and you still get basically the same immediate effect without a huge tempo loss if they have removal ready for Rabblemaster. Other than wasting cards into a wrath, this seems strictly better. Alternatively, you can take turn 3 off to combat trick the hell out of your opponent instead of tapping out precombat for an additional 1/1. I haven't touched the card, so if you guys have done extensive testing, I'll buy it. It just doesn't seem like something I want to do in AIR. The only time I've ever wanted to spend 3 mana on a spell was Dynacharge and (just this weekend) Hall of Triumph.

[Valdarith]

[deck]
Creatures (36)
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Legion Loyalist
3 Frenzied Goblin
4 Firefist Striker
3 Goblin Shortcutter
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Pyrewild Shaman
4 Rubblebelt Maaka

Spells (4)
4 Boros Charm

Lands (20)
2 Mutavault
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Mana Confluence
8 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Chained to the Rocks
3 Forge Devil
2 Wear / Tear
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Legion's Initiative
1 Iroas, God of Victory
[/deck]

[magicdownunder]

Solid list Val, thoughts on [card]Legion's Initiative[/card] too dodge sweepers like Drown in Sorrow? I could imagine one or two in the sideboard.

[Valdarith]

A good suggestion. I would probably remove Glare of Heresy and Hall of Triumph for two. It's a little worse against Golgari Charm but is basically Boros Charm 5-6 against control and strictly better against Drown in Sorrow.

[Tyrael]

Aodh: Tom Ross posted an article updating boss sligh for M15, that might interest you (and me, being an AIR enthousiast ) more: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28 ... n-M15.html

your list looks super fun val

edit: oh man, Spike Jester....

[Valdarith]

I've had Spike Jester in the back of my mind but I'm not sure what else black offers. Also, we don't have a RB painland so playing Spike Jester actually slows the deck down a bit (somewhat counterintuitive). I think white happens to offer more flexibility in the 75 as well as being more resilient to control.

[Tyrael]

Yeah I figured I was just living the dream for a second there

[Purp]

Saito RDW

[Tyrael]

I'll be trying out a very similar list (some number tweaking differences mainly) tonight

will report back

[Valdarith]

I like it. 3cmc slot is a bit crowded and I'd probably swap a Frenzied Goblin for the fourth Firedrinker Satyr since he's running eight burn spells, but otherwise it looks legit.

[Valdarith]

In text format:

[deck]
Creatures (30)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Foundry Street Denizen
3 Firedrinker Satyr
3 Frenzied Goblin
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Firefist Striker
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (8)
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames

Lands (22)
4 Mutavault
18 Mountain
[/deck]

[Toddington]

I'm exSaito'd to try the list. Love me some frenzied goblin. Is there a whole bunch of new m15 saito lists somewhere, can anyone hook me up?

[Tyrael]

https://twitter.com/TomoharuSaito

[LP, of the Fires]

I feel like I posted the same decklist on the previous page. Oh wait; I did.

In all seriousness though, I'm not sure if I like the 4 point burn better then maaka(I love me some maaka), but it makes Chandra's phoenix better and reach is generally never a bad thing.

[Valdarith]

I think I prefer Maaka builds because low land hands are easier to keep and it makes your ground guys mote threatening when you don't have Firefist Striker or Frenzied Goblin out. That's the nice thing about Maaka and Loyalist - they make combat on the ground an absolute nightmare and hatebears like Fiendslayer Paladin are just chumps.

[LP, of the Fires]

Played Tom Ross updated boss sligh at FNM tonight. Flooded a lot and got drowned in sorrow plus bike blighted a couple times, still 4-0'd.

Decks still good if your patient and can read hands well. Won a match that involved holding a mad cap skills for several turns and involved a lot of not attackinginto mutavaults for cchump damage. Felt good about that.

Rabbelmasters Also a house.

[Aodh]

Went 2-2. Probably want 3 Frenzied Gobbo (-1), 3 Rabblemaster (-1), 18 land (-1), 0 1-of Fun-of (-1) for 4 Maaka again, or Madcap Skills. Not too sure.