WePick Mafia (roflstomp)

[Stardust]

Here's how tomorrow goes: You either say, "Surprise! Stardust is town!" or "Shoot, I got roleblocked!". Either way, I get you lynched because you're a mafia rolecop. I'm just saving us a step with the only downside being that I won't be cleared town if you do flip town. I'm sure enough that you're scum that I'm willing to take that risk. If others don't like my case (can't see how they wouldn't - the scum mindset is extremely clear in several of your posts), I'll lynch Kaze instead, but I'm much more sure of you than him.

[Dechs Kaison]

I don't have a defense against your case. I made a lot of mistakes in a short time. All I can say is to look at the Gone Postal game. I was scum there and I was a far more careful player.

I'm town. Give me the chance to prove it. If not, so be it. I just beg you guys to hang Stardust.

[Stardust]

You weren't very careful in Gone Postal. Not sure where you're getting that. Pie at one point called you "cheeky" for being so brazen.

Anyway, my case isn't about you making mistakes. It's about posts that couldn't possibly have a town mindset. Voting for someone you clearly thought was town. Reiterating that he was town while worrying about how you look and still asking for his claim (but a weaker version this time). Giving a soft claim in the face of minor pressure. Going after Kaze, then dropping it and ignoring him completely for no reason. You have no conviction right up until you start the case on me where any newbish care is thrown out the window for scummy tunneling similar to your final Day in Gone Postal. You are scum, you can't prove you're town, please come with me, the gallows are this way.

[Wraith223]

I get it. You're afraid that I am a cop and that I'm going to investigate you tonight. Fine. Hang me. When I flip town, you guys need to hang Scumdust.

Little over the top there, and town would not get upset at an investigation. Can you explain more in depth now that you see stardusts opinion with the role request? You had to know that asking for a role that early is scummy. Red did it last game and I nearly lynched him for it. I let it go on you cause others were already questioning it and I had others already in my scum tell pool.

Would lynch you based on your actions with the request for a role? If not, why?

[Dechs Kaison]

I'm done. I fucked up enough. I'm going to stop talking. Just hang me already so I can flip town and you guys hang Stardust tomorrow.

[Dechs Kaison]

I literally have no idea what I'm doing, so it's not like my power will be wasted anyway.

[Wraith223]

Edit, "would you lynch you"

[Wraith223]

I'm done. I fucked up enough. I'm going to stop talking. Just hang me already so I can flip town and you guys hang Stardust tomorrow.

Don't give up. Answer our questions and state your case on kaze and stardust of why they are town and scum. Pro and con list for example. I find it weird that stardust backed off and now is voting DK, but cop claim requires his word and another lynch to prove it.

[hamfactorial]

Stardust:

That's an interesting case, if a bit heavy on speculation. I'll re-read it for better detail after work.

The thing I noticed during yesterday's re-read is DK's focus on roles (both his and others) which I view as extremely anti-town. The bit about trading votes for role info from you seemed extra out of place.

I view claiming as pro-town when it's justified and volunteered (re. my vig claim in Gone Postal), but trying to fish out role info on day 1 gives scum a better idea of the town power level.

What do you think of rez and his scum accusation of Wraith? The whole thing looks like two scum factions fighting it out from my POV, but that seems horrible from a balance perspective.

[Stardust]

rez is rez. He catches things and tunnels on them for a bit before he picks up on something else. His read aren't bad, but I think he comes to the wrong conclusion about innocuous things sometimes. If he truly does have a meta-tell on Wraith, that's cool, but I'm not willing to lynch based on that without judging it for myself. The fact that rez is willing to lynch based on that isn't scummy though, especially coming from him, I would say.

Can you point out where I speculated in my case? I'm curious what you see as speculation since I don't think I really tried to draw a narrative out of any of that.

[Dechs Kaison]

Stardust's case is perfect. Stop arguing the semantics and hang me already.

[hamfactorial]

I'll just copy-paste bits that I found speculative. I'm on my phone so they aren't real quotes.

This is where it all begins. I didn't like this one for two reasons: 1) Asking for my role for no reason, and 2) Being uncomfortable about voting. Townies usually feel free to mess around a bit in RVS - even newbies don't worry about it even if they don't understand it. It's much more often the scum that you see being uncomfortable voting at random (voting no lynch, voting at random, that sort of thing).

Why do you assert that he's being uncomfortable? It seems odd to me that something as mundane as RVS could make him uncomfortable.

Apparently he asked me about my role "to start getting reads". It's no secret that this really bugged me, primarily because he didn't follow up in the slightest. Instead, he seems more inclined to throw dirt my way for dodging
the question.

Saying that you gave him a silly response is hardly throwing dirt.

In the very next post, Dechs soft claims. He's at two votes. Townies can soft claim, but not like this. This is desperation. That desperation continues in his multi-post with him asking us to lynch him. Standard scum tactic, really, and one Dechs himself made use of in Gone Postal.

Labeling it as desperation assigns scum motivation to it, at least in my mind. Saying that townies can do what he did, but not the way he did it suggests that you have an agenda.

You may be right, and the rest of your case on DK is strong, but I try hard to identify the motivation behind posts involving player-on-player action.

Pedit: simmer down DK y u mad bro?

[Dechs Kaison]

I'm pissed because I'm getting hung for playing like an absolute moron. It looks like I'm angry at Stardust, but I'm not. I'm angry with myself for making myself such an easy target for him to label scum.

[Dechs Kaison]

You want to know what frustrates me the most? It's that I just managed to finish a game as scum while somehow convincing everyone that I was a townie. Yet here I am now, a town with a power role I want to use and can prove that I'm town, but I don't think I'll get the chance.

I look more like town when I'm scum than when I'm town.

[Dechs Kaison]

I know how to act like town, but not how to be town.

[Stardust]

Why do you assert that he's being uncomfortable? It seems odd to me that something as mundane as RVS could make him uncomfortable.

I admit, I've never understood it either, but RVS does make some players uncomfortable, often only when they're scum. Dechs wording, "RVS just doesn't seem right" makes me think he's uncomfortable voting me at that time.

Saying that you gave him a silly response is hardly throwing dirt.

He didn't say I gave a silly response. He said I was "dodging the question".

In the very next post, Dechs soft claims. He's at two votes. Townies can soft claim, but not like this. This is desperation. That desperation continues in his multi-post with him asking us to lynch him. Standard scum tactic, really, and one Dechs himself made use of in Gone Postal.

Labeling it as desperation assigns scum motivation to it, at least in my mind. Saying that townies can do what he did, but not the way he did it suggests that you have an agenda.

That's true, and I intended to assign scum motivation there. Townies get desperate sometimes, but not nearly as often, and when they do they act differently. What I said about the soft-claim is that townies can soft-claim, but not like that. The soft-claim in desperation is a scum thing. Townies are more likely to soft-claim if they're trying to throw off the scum somehow (like I
did in Bioshock when I was bulletproof - and we all know how well that worked out ). I think he's scared and throwing out hints while trying to keep his options open. I've seen townies full claim in that situation, but the soft claim (and then the reluctance to full claim later especially) tells me that he was just in it for himself, you know?

Anyway, it sounds like you don't have a problem with the real heart of my case (Dechs' interactions with Red), so that's good.

[hamfactorial]

I don't have issue with your case re. Red, I intend to dig more into it tonight.

[imopen2]

we're not lynching the claimed cop. stardust, really now? "skip a step"?

let's lynch kaze. unless he's your partner that you never really intended to lynch?

[RedNihilist]

- I bet on rezmo's theory being something among the lines of "openly antagonizes Red and his obvious anger management problems + he's really afraid of a strong player like Stardust for no reason, exactly like he was from Iso last game".
- I'm with imopen on letting DK reach day 2.
- I know I've promised to reread things today but I guess I'm really burned out on Mafia atm.

I'll think about things a bit, will post something later.

[Stardust]

Well fine then. Dechs is scum though. I'm more sure of this than I ever have been about a read.

Unvote, Vote Kaze.

[InflatablePie]

VC 1.8

Stardust (2) - Wraith, Dechs
Wraith (2) - LMD, rezombad
Kaze (2) - imopen, Stardust
Red (1) - Kaze
Not Voting (2) - ham, Red

9 alive, 5 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, July 12th at 5:30 PM Eastern.

Modnote - VC has been edited; some votes were out-of-order.

[Dechs Kaison]

Well fine then. Dechs is scum though. I'm more sure of this than I ever have been about a read.

Unvote, Vote Kaze.

Look at this guy, just bouncing his votes all over.

Kaze's my other scum read, but every post from you just makes me want to hang you more.

[RedNihilist]

Why don't you case him, then?
It would be a good training, wouldn't it?

[Stardust]

Look at this guy, just bouncing his votes all over.

And you don't understand the thought process there? A simple case to prove out the scumminess of my actions would be to look at where I moved my vote and identify a scum motivation for each. I don't think you can do it.

C'mon guys, we've got only one day to deadline here. Let's start moving in one direction or the other today so we have a chance to analyze the game state at that point. Making a case/vote (or at least an opinion) now and changing at deadline is better than waiting to deadline in the first place.

Red, the game's not super long at this point. A quick skim should take you less than half an hour.

[RedNihilist]

It's 15.30 and I'm working, though...

[Stardust]

Yeah, yeah, you don't have to do it right now. But I like your reads - you're getting good at this game. I think it would be helpful if you got a good handle on the game before deadline.

[Wraith223]

It's 15.30 and I'm working, though...

Should not take that long between lap dances.

Just messing with you.

Only played two games kaze and I never really grasped his character in those games. He was more playful in those games or posted material that was just weird (durp mafia). Not sure whether he is using me as a shield to unify or making an early friend? I went after Red for his post. Kaze just road the wave I made. The more I think about it, kaze looks more scummy. Issue is the same is true for DK in evaluation. Stardust and imopen2 are pushing the wagon on kaze. I am wondering whether they are working together to deflect the
stardust questioning by me. Stardust does tight a very nice case on DK and Kaze, but burying us in a wall of text is a neat way to hide scum intent to counter unify and lynch town. Stardust has tried to push the DK twice. He quickly gave up after DK claimed Cop, and gets reinvigorated again. We know DK is going to investigate Stardust of he has that ability, thus stardust must go on the attack if DK is scum. Question is whether the mod can confirm DK claim that stardust is scum via DK.
@DK, can you check to see if the mod can confirm your investigation to us?

Back to Kaze...I am unsure he is scum as his spec thread has him placing red as a decent player. He might see something in red that I missed.
@kaze what is your opinion of red at this point so far in the game?

The better vote is still stardust. The flip flopping, text burying, and double attack on DK has me beyond concerned. As to the comments on my fear of good players; it is a factor in my decisions, but only supporting rational level
material. In previous games, I have always challenged the big players. Nothing new there.
@stardust, why let DK go, make a big case on Kaze fast, then make another big case on DK? I would have went after me with your time and effort. You had a long period of suspecting me scum, and made a threat that you could make a case on me but did not. Making the case on DK again but highly indepth seems like an equivocation to slide town into a kaze versus DK case to cover the need to protect yourself from DK if he is indeed a cop. I am completely willing to hear a case on me as you did DK and Kaze. If it lead to a lynch; it would still allow DK to investigate you. If he died that night; we know you are scum. I see you have painted yourself in a corner. Please do not ask what the question is here as it is obvious. Why find you make a case again on DK instead of me when you agreed that DK is alter day lynch?
Threatening me that you could make a case on me but not doing so is fear mongering.

[Stardust]

I'm not really sure what you're asking? I thought DK was scum. Then he claimed cop. I still thought DK was scum but flopped around a bit to find a better lynch. I eventually found one in Kaze. DK asked me to case him. I did so, convincing me that he is scum and deserves to be lynched more than Kaze does.

Otherwise, you're asking me to case you? Why would I do that when I think you're town? I tried to make a case and had a few points written up, but eventually abandoned the case when it didn't feel right. Looking at the whole picture, I was convinced your seemingly scummy actions came from a town mindset.

I also never threatened you with a case, I said that I could have made a case if I'd wanted to. And it's true. I guess you've never seen me play as scum, but I'm reasonably good at fabricating cases. I had more than half of one written up already when I deleted it all. I was well aware that hopping off of
you would likely draw some attention, especially given my play up to that point, but what am I supposed to do? Case a townie and call him scum just to save myself some minor pressure? No thanks.


Can you identify the scum intent that I tried to hide within my text walls? What points (on Kaze and/or DK) did you disagree with?



Pie, what happens at deadline if we haven't had a lynch yet?

[Wraith223]

At the bottom of your kaze case, you say DK as scum more so than Kaze. Why waste the time to discuss the Kaze case then still push DK. Makes no sense when you voted Kaze. Later you pick up the torch for DK again. The flip flop is what looks bad. You did say you could make a case on me if you wanted to. There is no getting around that. I can understand your point on the cross roads you face, but you made it by your own hand. Why can't DK and kaze be on the same team? Just a thought.

[Stardust]

Uh, I do think they're on the same team. I've said that multiple times. The only reason I voted for Kaze instead of DK after my Kaze case was that DK had claimed cop.

How you think I'm trying to get out of saying things about you, I have no idea. To quote myself:

I said that I could have made a case if I'd wanted to.

Yes. You're right. I said that. What of it?


Pie, given that this weekend is prerelease weekend, can we can get an extension to Monday afternoon?

[Wraith223]

When some one makes a challenge that threatens you but does not go through with it to get forced silence; always call that challenge. It is the same rational for folks who are black mailed. The black mailer has more to risk in getting caught by police (town in this instance) that the person getting blackmailed. The fear is what the blackmailer (challenger) is betting on to what ever they want out of the person getting black mailed. In this instance, it is my silence I suspect you want.

An extension would be favorable for you at this moment, but the coincidence of the pre-release is true.

[Stardust]

'Cause that totally worked to keep you quiet, right? I think I know you well enough to know exactly what I was getting into when I voted you without giving a reason. Creating something big enough to get everyone discussing it was the reason I postponed giving those reasons in the first place (though even that didn't really work). If there's one thing you're good at, it's making things a big deal.

Why do you say an extension would be favourable for me in particular? We've got (three? four?) competing wagons with about 30 hours to deadline. People need time to make the right choice. I suspect that if it got rushed right now, Kaze would likely be the lynch mostly because he hasn't posted in the past couple days. I'm not sure whether he's hiding or just busy, but it certainly doesn't help his case.

[RedNihilist]

Lord_Mcdonalds
imopen2
They're not posting much, but I find their contributions okay.

hamfactorial
That claim is pretty convenient and I confess being a little troubled by it, but I blame it more on my little understanding of the setup rather than on his behaviour that, honestly, seems pretty much ok.

rezombad
Mixed feelings here. All in all, I think the only time I played with him with him being scum was Fire & Ice where I marvelously failed to consider him so, even though I had sure info on pretty much half of the players.
I really don't like the way he's pushing Wraith - "I think Wraith has a tell, and I'm not gonna say what it is until after he dies." is exactly the kind of thing that works against your own case.

It's not a scum slip by him, he's just overconfident as usual, yet I'd like him to properly share his thought and encourage discussion.

Dechs Kaison
He's the strongest
scum read at the moment.
I'm with imopen2 on the fact that we should at least give a shot to his role, though.

Kazekirimaru
I've yet to understand his case on me, then he switched over to DK and... died?
I don't know what to make of him, at first I thought he was his usual self (pro-active, very aggressive town), but he just seems to lack any direction or activity.
Also, the case in post 322 is good and imopen2 dubbed him as scum as well.

Wraith223
I can't bring myself to a proper reread for now.
Smells fishy, though.
As said earlier, the fact that he's super-aware of stronger players (like Iso in Gone Postal, even if he was never a threat to begin with) and the way he has provoked me to get my attention earlier shows overconfidence.
I'd be ok with lynching him, but at the same time I just fear my vision of him is tainted by that other game.

Stardust
I'm troubled here.
The gut says town, the actions are very townish to me, yet I'm a little troubled here.
This is a bit complicated
so we'll discuss about this later, though.


DK is the strongest scumread here, then Wraith, then Kaze.
imopen feels really town to me.
The other non-ham players are in a gray, WIFOMy zone.

[RedNihilist]

(pedit: seems like I've missed some hot Wraith on Stardust action gere)

[Stardust]

Thanks Red. If it came to deadline, I take it you'd be willing to lynch either Kaze or Wraith?

[Mcdonalds]

Yeah we're not lynching Dechs today, that is not going to happen

[Mcdonalds]

Whats the case on kaze?

[Mcdonalds]

FUCK YOU POST LIMITER, I POST WHEN I WANT

:cartman:

[hamfactorial]

I did an ISO on Kaze this morning and found his behavior aggressive as usual.

I've played against scum Kaze before and his tone here seems different, almost like he doesn't care that people are thinking him scummy. Is this a scum tell for anyone? When I play as town, I'm much more willing to look scummy in the short term because I'm confident in my flip and long term play revealing me to be town. I know he's dealing with some personal stuff right now, which is probably why he's not posting. It's not helping his wagon though.

DK's reaction to Stardust's case on him is both similar and different to his reaction to me accusing him in Gone Postal. In that one he calmly responded to me, showed some amount of contrition and confusion, and acted the way I expected a townie would. In this game, I read his responses as very emotional and agitated. Two possibilities:

1. He's actually town, but playing poorly (this is
his first town game if so) and is learning how being a mislynch wagon feels.

2. He's a scum role and flailing around (appeal to emotion) to get sympathy points.

He's claimed an X-shot cop, which is something I'd like him to get the opportunity to prove.

Stardust is actively engaged in his "professor Stardust" persona where he actively explains his votes and reads. Another player who I can't remember described this in a different game I played with Stardust. I'll search the archives to see whether it was relevant, given his role.

I have no read on io2, LMD, or rez, since I've been concentrating on the Kaze-Stardust-DK circle of distrust.

Red is displaying the same annoyance that accompanied his town play in Gone Postal.

Wraith will forever confuse me, and I'm trying not to let his scum role from Gone Postal color my read. So far I'm not doing a great job because I'm still angry about how that game turned out.

I'm forever suspicious of lurkers, and I'm apparently
unable to read LMD at all, but the wagons may be all town right now while the scum team idles nearby off-screen.

[Mcdonalds]

Is this a scum tell for anyone?

No, the last thing you want to do is be concerned about how you look in relation to everyone else, town is confident they are town based on their play.

If your trying to find scum based on that, prolly not gonna end well tbh