[Primer] Boros Burn

[Tyrael]

Is racing mono U not a realistic strategy when you're on the play?

[Elricity]

Is racing mono U not a realistic strategy when you're on the play?

Not against their nuts draw. Certainly not without lifegain

[dauntless268]

Is racing mono U not a realistic strategy when you're on the play?

You can obviously (it's the only way we can win G1), but then you need to draw YP. Post board racing is much more difficult because they bring in counterspells

[Valdarith]

Depending on your sideboard it is usually correct to board out 1-2 Helix against control. That being said, that's no excuse to go on a tirade and berate an opponent's decision when you lost. Sam was being a huge tool there.

Yes, but Sam was playing blue devotion. Sam was telling him to race devotion with lava spikes instead of the removal plan which is the exact opposite of what you should do.

People seem to confuse standard burn with legacy

Wow. I had assumed if Sam had said that he must have been playing UW control. The fact that he said that playing mono blue
indicates that he's the one that fundamentally misunderstands the matchup and is being a blithering butthurt idiot.

[NotARobot]

Almost all of my losses in 8-man SEs on MTGO have been to W/U control, holy crap does that matchup frustrate me. I feel like every post board game comes down to a critical spell with Dispel to protect it and Toil//Trouble has been sucking too. I'm putting away the Toil//Trouble for Satyrs again.

Definitely with you here. Seems like they always have the negate when I'm on the play for the turn 3 trouble. When it gets in its a beater, but it just gets counter too often, especially when you draw it late.

[dauntless268]

I would consider running more 1/2 drops (Satyr, Keening Apparition or Eidolon are the obvious possibilities here). If they are forced to react to an attacking 2-drop on t3, they don't have mana for negate. And if they don't, then, well, you got 2-damage in. Part of the secret of playing vs. Control is to pressure them early and force them to react to your board state. Just loading up on answers to their answers (BL, Glare, W/T) in addition to t3+ Threats doesn't quite cut it I'm afraid.

[NotARobot]

Yeah, my SB definitely needs some adjustment. Been totally disappointed with keening apparition, definitely dropping it.

[Rhyno]

I would consider running more 1/2 drops (Satyr, Keening Apparition or Eidolon are the obvious possibilities here). If they are forced to react to an attacking 2-drop on t3, they don't have mana for negate. And if they don't, then, well, you got 2-damage in. Part of the secret of playing vs. Control is to pressure them early and force them to react to your board state. Just loading up on answers to their answers (BL, Glare, W/T) in addition to t3+ Threats doesn't quite cut it I'm afraid.

Right, which is why I'm going to cut T//T for Satyrs again. I feel like having no T1 or T2 creature makes T//T terrible. Either that or I'm switching to the Eidolon build on MTGO, I've only played it on paper so far.

[dauntless268]

I think Keening is a threat... are you holding it back until they play an enchantment?

[NotARobot]

No, I'm not. I feel like I'm not losing those games to enchantments - its because I dont have any threats that I stick early enough to actually put them under pressure, I get them to like sub10 but then run out of spells while they refill their hands and stall me out with counters and junk. IDK.

[Longtoe]

Firedrinker satyr is a thing, not having any threat against the control deck allows them to durdle to infinity and then just bend us over. Making your deck more threat dense seems appropriate. I still don't hate keening though. He is better topdeck late.

[NotARobot]

Feel myself moving back towards my old sideboard of this :

[deck]
Sideboard 15
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Chained to the Rocks
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Toil // Trouble
1 Reprisal
1 Wear // Tear
2 Anger of the Gods[/deck]

Felt more rounded than what I have now.. Just been unimpressed with keening, banishing light is always a bit slow for me, idk. I know eidolon isn't everyones favorite but you have to admit when its good its a freaking beating.

Any thoughts?

[LP, of the Fires]

hammer of purphoros can be pretty good against mono-blue when games go longer. It totes blocks all there ground guys well and means master of waves can't get in chip damage.

[Nezeru]

I played against Legacy Burn with my Standard list and won through 2 Eidolon of the Great Revel and a Sulfuric Vortex that stopped me from using Warleader's Helix effectively. This deck is the real deal folks!

[NotARobot]

Back on revel burn MDU?

[magicdownunder]

Nope, I'm just uploading old videos (though I still like the Revel plan vs Red and Control)

I'll be busy until next week Friday, so all videos (for these next two weeks) will be games which I ran previously, that said when I find some time I'll post the my most current list and a rough SB guide (I'm current running a Anti-Monster List with 4x Chain and 1x MM MD - which is a horrible idea if your having problems against control).

[rage_jl]

I went 4-2 at an SCG IQ this weekend and missed top 8 on tie breakers. The losses were to Jund monsters and the mirror; both of those were due to flooding or too few over the first several turns (after keeping 2 or 3 land openers w/scrying what I didn't need away, I'll sac a goat before the next one to the Magic gods). I ran YP and 3 chains, 1 BL, 4 shock, 1 MM main and the SB was: 4 T//T, 3 MM, 2 Chandra, 2 Fated, 2 apparitions, 1 chains, 1 BL. The list ran great and keening was great against control. T//T and keening have worked well against control online for me as well. I'm not sure if the 1 BL main is correct, but it was never an ordeal using it as a 3 cc chains either.

[Nezeru]

Sac a Nyx-Fleece Ram or 4

[Purp]

Two burn lists in top of TCG open, both containing YP$ (and satyr firedancer)

Font of Ire
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1202879

Reckoner Main
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1202877

[NotARobot]

Renounce the guilds? I like that BBOV killing tech

[zenbitz]

I have to admit I was pleasantly surprised with Font of Ire... in limited. It doesn't shock me that it has some utility. Surprised that it's not paired with EoGR though - really keep the games as short as possible. Best 7 out of 13? Renounce kills ghost dad, d-sphere, and various plainswalkers too. Seems janky though.

[Elricity]

I've played with it in the past and it's a bit narrow and there are times your opponent making the choice is bad.

[BlakLanner]

Agreed. There is too much danger in your opponent having more than one multicolor permanent to consider that a real solution.

[LP, of the Fires]

Two burn lists in top of TCG open, both containing YP$ (and satyr firedancer)

Font of Ire
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1202879

Reckoner Main
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1202877

I like that 4cc top 8'd. It's basically BUG splashing white for Blood Baron and Sphinx's revelation, but it also runs the mana confluence/nightveil spector combo that lets you cast all of your opponents cards forever which is really sweet.

[BrainsickHater]

Damn ended up 6-4 at SCG Open, was 6-3 but mulled to a bad 5 against MBD/ 2 duress game 3 round 10....

Maindeck felt AWESOME with 4 Chains/1 Mortors.

Beat these decks:

B/g Devotion
Mirror
Mirror
Junk Hexproof
Jund Monsters
4-color control

Lost to:

R/G monsters
Esper
Mono Black Devotion
Naya Hexproof

Also went 6-4 at the open; also was 6-3 and then lost to a Bx deck last round. I was really hoping to Top 64, but my opponent had G1 T1 Duress, and at that point I knew I was probably fucked.

I tried some new things and will write up a report that is probably too detailed before long.

[BrainsickHater]

Went 6-4 at SCG Open Providence this past weekend. I'm kind of disappointed, but it's the first reasonably large event I've ever attended, it was a great time, and I feel like I learned a lot over the weekend.

Here's the list I ran:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Other Spells
4 Chained to the Rocks

1 Mizzium Mortars
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Mana Confluence
2 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain

Sideboard
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Keening Apparition
1 Wear // Tear
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Blind Obedience
1 Banishing Light
2 Reprisal
[/deck]

Round 1 vs BG Devotion: L
Lost G1 due to a stupid punt where I attacked my YP and a token into his dual mutavaults. I ended up not being able to tap his
demon to keep myself from taking lethal for one more turn, the turn which would allow me to deal lethal damage. G2 I lost to double demon, triple merchant, and Golgari Charm for my Chained to the Rocks.

Round 2 vs Monoblue: W
This deck is awful, particularly against us, and I just steamrolled my opponent in both games. G1 my opponent actually could have beaten me but he misplayed his Cyclonic Rift very badly and it effectively did nothing. MIzzium mortars was very good this game as I was able to overload it to kill a crazy amount of his creatures. G2 I barely remember playing.

Round 3 vs Monoblue: W
See above. G1 my opponent kept mono one-drops and I was able to draw out of land screw and savage him. G2 he stood zero chance.

Round 4 vs RW Devotion: L
Game 1 my opponent had a very powerful hand, and I just couldn't keep up. I took 8 hammer-hasted damage from a Purphoros+Burning tree followed up by a hasty Fanatic
of Mogis which dealt 6 upon entering and 4 after attacks. Game 2 I got choked on mana for a couple early turns and I was dead before I could recover.

Round 5 vs BG Devotion: W
This was a very interesting game 1. I don't remember the early details, but I know that my opponent is at 8 and is representing lethal on board. I have 1 land tapped, 2 lands untapped, and my hand is triple Lightning Strike and a Warleader's Helix. I need to topdeck an untapped land to win this game. My opponent is in the tank, and eventually thoughtseizes me, which gives me the game regardless of what I draw. I think it was a very tough call on his part, and 9 times out of 10 it would probably be correct. He realizes that if he's dead, he's either dead already, or he's dead to something I topdeck, and thoughtseizing gives him some amount of control in limiting my lethal draws. The only time that's incorrect is the reasonably unlikely scenario that I have three 3-4 damage burn spells in hand
that cost 2 mana. He ends up conceding as he was going to go home after the match anyway and didn't really feel like playing against burn again.

Round 6 vs RW Burn: L
My opponent is on the Eidolon build w/ Searing Blood, so I'm already at a disadvantage. I also draw both my mana confluence which makes me feel restricted in the spells I can cast a turn. I end up not casting nearly as many spells as him and die with 2 WLH in hand. I think I was definitely too scared of mana confluence and I should have been slamming my double helices, as he's unlikely to have double skullcrack and I want enough time to cast both spells before I die. Game 2 I outpaced him and was able to bring in Eidolons of my own, one of which came down on T2 and was very helpful. Game 3 my hand was a little land heavy and I wasn't able to draw enough gas.

Round 7 vs Junk Constellation: W
This deck pretty much doesn't do anything before we kill them. Both games played out
this way, although in Game 2 he was able to get double doomwake giant triggers going to clear my phoenixes every turn. Unfortunately for him, I had 5 mana and it didn't matter too much. I did side out YP$ in this matchup, as Eidolon puts even more pressure on them and YP$ seems pretty embarrassing against Doomwake Giant.

Round 8 vs RW Burn: W
My opponent just didn't know how to play his deck. I beat him fairly easily in Game 1, and game 2 he had double Skullcrack for my double Helices (I guess it's not always correct to slam them ). Game 3 I saw his boarded in Satyr Firedancers. Suffice it to say I won that game.

Round 9 vs RW Burn: W
Again my opponent wasn't very skilled with the deck. Game 1 he animated his mutavault into open mana and that was enough for me to steal the game. Game 2 he made the same mistake, but I actually didn't
have burn that could target creatures. I proceeded to get salty while his mutavault bashed me in with a Chandra's Phoenix for multiple turns. Game 3 I utterly destroyed him. My hand was amazing and I drew just as well. Afterwards he asked me about the deck; he thought Eidolon was bad in the mirror and said he thought bringing in Firedancer was better

Round 10 vs BW Midrange: L
I'm still kind of salty about this. My opponent was playing a build of BW that was tuned for the online meta, so he started out semi-boarded. I got duressed on his Turn 1 and knew I was probably fucked. I lost G1 to a Blood Baron backed up by discard, and G2 I lost to triple Thoughtseize into Baron.


After playing at the Open, my biggest concerns are the following:

How does Burn consistently beat Bx decks?
How does Burn consistently beat Monsters?

If you have answers to these questions, I would prefer it if
they were mildly detailed, as I've asked them before and the answers are usually rather unhelpful (i.e. X deck can't beat Y card, we're favored, etc.)


I also have some thoughts on some of the card choices I made:

- I really liked Blind Obedience. The card was very good for me in matchups other than monsters, and is obviously very good for me there. This is probably my favorite card to have in the mirror as it's not as narrow as Peak Eruption. It also turned my double Lightning Strikes into lethal during a mirror match which was pretty sweet.

- I don't know how good it actually was, but having 4 Chained to the Rocks and 1 MM in the main seemed to be very good. There were sometimes Mortars wasn't so good (but it was usually decent), but I think having 4 Chains in the maindeck is very nice. Being able to Chain demon more consistently in Game 1 is very nice, especially with Abrupt Decay around.

- I really liked Eidolon of the Great Revel in the board. He was rather lackluster against
the Bx decks, but I enjoyed him in the mirror, and is an all-star against control.

- Reprisal was weird for me. I think the spell is very strong right now, as BW seems to be more popular and green fatties are more prevalent, but at the same time it felt weak to be casting it. I feel like I wanted to be playing Reprisal and burn in the same turn, but I was always too loaded down with spells that were either expensive, reactive, or wanted to be saved for later (read skullcrack). It might be that Reprisal pushes the deck a little too far in the reactive camp if played with the usual reactive suite.

- I don't have much input on Keening Apparition. The only time I cast it was against a big Naya deck, and I don't even know if it ran Banishing Light. It did run unflinching courage which my opponent had in hand, but he never had a creature around long enough to enchant it (muahahaha).

- Banishing Light was meh. I didn't love it and I didn't absolutely hate it, but I feel like the slot could be
used for something better. I switched it out for Mutavault until I put together a new list.

[Purp]

Didn't you go to Knoxville?

[BrainsickHater]

Nerp

[BrainsickHater]

New list that I'm going to be trying out:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Other Spells
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster

4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Shock

Lands
2 Boros Guildgate
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Mutavault
9 Mountain
1 Mana Confluence

Sideboard
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Harness by Force
1 Blind Obedience
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Keening Apparition
1 Wear // Tear
1 Mutavault
[/deck]

EDIT: Added Chandra to the Maindeck

[BrainsickHater]

Also am considering one Chandra in the maindeck of a YP$ list. I find that I want the card in almost every matchup.

[BrainsickHater]

Also, I think I realized why Wild Guess was being run in the SCG Top 8 burn lists. Shock is not at its best in an Eidolon list, especially against Mono-Black, and Wild Guess provides some resiliency against discard and is a reasonable topdeck in the late game. It makes sense when playing against Monoblack or control, since one of the only other cards you can really run is Shock, but it's pretty weak against creature decks.

However, I think that if I was playing an Eidolon list and I didn't want to run shock, I would just run 4 of everything but shock and play a Chandra maindeck.

[zenbitz]

How does Burn consistently beat Bx decks?

I don't think there is a pat answer to this. I actually think - given competent play - both matchups are fairly even and draw dependent. I think there are a few people who who say, CRUSH Bx but I think they are just better players. I am not that good but I usually do OK against Bx. I usually like to save a burn spell for pack rat and then it's just a matter of Demons vs. Chains. Of course you can sac tokens to demon, but they can doom blade your YP. I try to get at least 1 token off of YP which means usually casting it on 4 unless I get a shock. Obviously, post board they can duress the heck out of you and whip can be very bad if they establish a board.

How does Burn consistently beat Monsters?

I don't think - between even pilots - that burn is favored here. It's not an awful match up but it's
not easy either. This was the matchup where (if they aren't running black) I really liked SFD to clean out the X/4s, or even doubling up with a skullcrack or whatever.
Probably you know this, but you have to pretty much ignore the planeswalkers in this matchup. I guess you could use a BL on them. The card that still gets me here is Ghor-Clan Rampager. I actually think Naya monsters might be harder than GR because boros charm is pretty good against us, and sometimes their deck just combos off and swings for 18 or 20 trample.

Nothing I have seen or heard indicates that there are special things you can do - but a better player will find a way to turn toss ups into 60-40s.

[BrainsickHater]

How does Burn consistently beat Bx decks?

I don't think there is a pat answer to this. I actually think - given competent play - both matchups are fairly even and draw dependent. I think there are a few people who who say, CRUSH Bx but I think they are just better players. I am not that good but I usually do OK against Bx. I usually like to save a burn spell for pack rat and then it's just a matter of Demons vs. Chains. Of course you can sac tokens to demon, but they can doom blade your YP. I try to get at least 1 token off of YP which means usually casting it on 4 unless I get a shock. Obviously, post board they can duress the heck out of you and whip can be very bad if they establish a board.

How does
Burn consistently beat Monsters?

I don't think - between even pilots - that burn is favored here. It's not an awful match up but it's not easy either. This was the matchup where (if they aren't running black) I really liked SFD to clean out the X/4s, or even doubling up with a skullcrack or whatever.
Probably you know this, but you have to pretty much ignore the planeswalkers in this matchup. I guess you could use a BL on them. The card that still gets me here is Ghor-Clan Rampager. I actually think Naya monsters might be harder than GR because boros charm is pretty good against us, and sometimes their deck just combos off and swings for 18 or 20 trample.

Nothing I have seen or heard indicates that there are special things you can do - but a better player will find a way to turn toss ups into 60-40s.

I really feel this way too. I really need to playtest more; I think I don't get enough practice in against decently skilled pilots playing the decks I
need to improve against.

[DerWille]

After playing at the Open, my biggest concerns are the following:

How does Burn consistently beat Bx decks?
How does Burn consistently beat Monsters?

If you have answers to these questions, I would prefer it if they were mildly detailed, as I've asked them before and the answers are usually rather unhelpful (i.e. X deck can't beat Y card, we're favored, etc.)

1. How does burn beat Bx decks?

I think it's better to look at how Bx decks want to win and then compare that to burn's game plan. So what's a typical Bx list's gameplan? Their win cons are usually something like this.

1. Control the board with direct kill spells, discard, and an undercosted 6/6 flier, resolve a desecration demon, then hit you 4 times with it.
2.
Play pack rats then discard unneeded cards to flood the board with big creatures using mutavaults to pump them up further.
3. Count a bunch of color symbols and blast you for half your life total.

Other variants will have additional game plans like resolve an Obzedat or Blood Baron, but those 3 are usually how I've seen black decks try to win. One of the strengths of the black deck is that it can transition from gameplan to gameplan easily. So how does the burn deck compare?

Plan 1. 8 creature spells, 4 of which come back from the grave, make kill spells terrible. Hero's Downfall, Bile Blight, Doom Blade, etc are mostly dead cards because they have no targets. Desecration Demon can't control the board because the bird always comes back, the young pyromancer can produce a seemingly endless number of tokens to sacrifice to it, and you can always burn the opponent directly.

Plan 2. 24+ burn spells main deck make resolving a pack rat at any point in the game difficult. If an opponent throws away a
Gray Merchant or Desecration Demon to make a copy in response to your shock, didn't you just kill a demon with a shock? That's value. A black deck can rarely go all in on pack rats against burn.

Plan 3. I find that burn has the hardest time with this plan when it's backed up by some discard, but outside of Underworld Connections, the burn deck can keep the black deck's devotion low. Even if the burn deck can't keep the devotion count low, skullcrack eliminates the deck's ability to buy more time with life gain.

So, all that tl;dr was to point out that burn has answers for black's game plan by having answers to its questions and not playing into its plan.

I can't help you with the GR monsters match up. I don't have too much experience playing against it and what little I do have is against 1 guy who runs the list but I beat him because of his play mistakes rather than weaknesses in the deck or strength in burn.

[BrainsickHater]

I guess it's reasonable to say that Burn matches up well against Bx's plan, but the raw power of Bx decks makes it tough to beat them if we don't have the answer immediately, and their discard makes having that especially tough. All too often it feels like I'm just praying to my deck.

Also, I don't mean to say that you think this about Desecration Demon, but the way you describe it in your post makes the card sound bad against Burn. Making the burn deck sac Phoenix every turn is pretty damn good, and because we have almost no creatures YP$ will rarely be able to keep a demon under control for long.

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is, yes, we have ways to deal with monoblack, but these tools feel extremely fragile. I suppose that's where me being a better player comes in.

[rage_jl]

Bx is beaten by having chains and skullcracks when you need them and tight play otherwise. If they have a 2 or 3 demon draw or 2 or 3 gary draw that game may be theirs. They can have a nuts draw but in general I feel it does favor this burn deck because of phoenix, YP, helix and our ability to answer a demon and/or gary here and there. Depending on the game you may be racing or controlling and as in any other match it depends on draws and correct sequencing. Monsters is an unfavorable matchup but that is why more mortars and chains are being ran in general. The games I win against them tend to be where I am able to tempo/race them. Both matchups really come down to setting up the game state that if you do draw well over the next few turns you have a chance to win. If you did not set it up for that then it doesn't matter what you draw, that's what I believe better players try to do; I know I fail in this regard more
often than not.

[DerWille]

I guess it's reasonable to say that Burn matches up well against Bx's plan, but the raw power of Bx decks makes it tough to beat them if we don't have the answer immediately, and their discard makes having that especially tough. All too often it feels like I'm just praying to my deck.

Also, I don't mean to say that you think this about Desecration Demon, but the way you describe it in your post makes the card sound bad against Burn. Making the burn deck sac Phoenix every turn is pretty damn good, and because we have almost no creatures YP$ will rarely be able to keep a demon under control for long.

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is, yes, we have ways to deal with monoblack, but these tools feel extremely fragile. I suppose that's where me being a
better player comes in.

You have to remember, what's burn's number 1 plan for winning? Assemble 20 points of burn and throw it at their face. Sacrificing a bird every turn delays their plan 1 while still advancing our plan 1. Also, think about it in terms of virtual card advantage. They traded a card to kill your card. Whenever a bird is in the graveyard, every burn spell gets +1 VCA since you're redrawing your bird. They're throwing away cards while you are continuously recycling the one you have.

rage_jl mentioned the double or triple demon draws. Those are hard to deal with. They're very powerful cards. The burn + bird plan falls apart since you can only keep one demon tapped down. I'm a bit paranoid about those so I like to have 6 exile effects in the 75 (4 chains/2 lights) to help deal with those, but unless the Bx has a lot of specific hate for burn, I think the match up is in burn's favor. Maybe... 60ish%?

[magicdownunder]

Both ALL matchups really come down to setting up the game state that if you do draw well over the next few turns you have a chance to win. If you did not set it up for that then it doesn't matter what you draw, that's what I believe better players try to do; I know I fail in this regard more often than not.

^This, counting your damage, counting your life-total and just being aware of the game state is how you'll win most games with burn (chaining everything or burning everything on sight will just leave you in a horrible topdeck state).

[hoeiberg]

I guess it's reasonable to say that Burn matches up well against Bx's plan, but the raw power of Bx decks makes it tough to beat them if we don't have the answer immediately, and their discard makes having that especially tough.

Yes, Bx is very powerful and some games we just get steam rolled. Most games however, I find that the black player is struggling to find pressure before they die. Often i see the B player doing desperate stuff like casting Grey Merchant into skullcrack mana simply because passing the turn means losing.

My strategy against Bx is to try and pressure their life total as early as possible to keep them on their heels.

[magicdownunder]

Thoughts on running 2x Font of Ire in the sideboard for Midrange and Control?

I've toyed with the idea with my earlier list but I never really drew them enough times too decided if its good enough, I do believe they seem "slightly" better then T//T vs Midrange .