[Primer] Boros Burn

Wipe Out · Postby **Wipe Out** » Tue May 27, 2014 7:32 am

I have previously loved bringing Chandra in as well in those grindier matchups. I think because I dodged all the normal UWx matchups and the only Mono-Black deck I played I brought in 7 cards on the play w/o Chandra and I didn't want to bring in two more. But I think when I hit UWx, more "classic" MBD, or the random x/1 aggro deck I am happy for her so I should not necessarily abandon her, she just wasn't called for in the matchups I had. I guess I wonder if bringing in Mortars is better than Chandra against MBD. MM takes care of Gary, nightveil and early pack rat. However, it doesn't do damage itself or present a source of CA or a wincon like Chandra can.

DerWille · Postby **DerWille** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:57 am

@MDU - I've had more success with Assemble. Make them have the charm. That charm has the potential to hit YP$ and friends, Chained to the Rocks, Blinding Light, and Assemble the Legion. It can be pretty easy to force the charm and then play another card that requires it for an answer.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Tue May 27, 2014 4:30 pm

Assemble is really slow, and the only reason it was ever played was that it was a free win. It's no longer a free win, so it's fat to be trimmed.

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Tue May 27, 2014 4:48 pm

@MDU - I've had more success with Assemble. Make them have the charm. That charm has the potential to hit YP$ and friends, Chained to the Rocks, Blinding Light, and Assemble the Legion. It can be pretty easy to force the charm and then play another card that requires it for an answer.

I'm inclined to agree - I've never had Chandra survive more than a turn against B!

Chandra comes in for more match ups than Assemble though which is a very relevant point.

Aodh · Postby **Aodh** » Tue May 27, 2014 8:35 pm

How about this list for creatureless?

[deck]Spells

3 Thoughtseize
4 Dreadbore
4 Boros Charm
4 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Toil // Trouble
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands

4 Mutavault
2 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Mana Confluence

Sideboard

4 Satyr Firedancer
4 Peak Eruption
3 Glare of Heresy
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Spark Trooper[/deck]

Pretty straight-forward, just need to see how it does in testing.

Realize · Postby **Realize** » Tue May 27, 2014 8:36 pm

Won my game day with Rw Burn. Not a super tuned list but it's been performing well:

[deck]4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Spark Trooper

4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix
1 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Searing Blood
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Wild Guess

3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
10 Mountain
2 Boros Guildgate

2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Wear // Tear
2 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Act of Treason
4 Satyr Firedancer
1 Searing Blood
2 Toil//Trouble[/deck]

Maindeck spark trooper has been completely broken with Eidolon, but that's mostly because people don't see it coming. It's real weak against mono-black. I love YP$, play him in modern and legacy, but the lack of 0-mana spells and not really liking shock right now means that I'd rather have the Eidolon atm.

I won my gameday with this list, but I've mostly been playing Rbg burn in modern (
8-3-1 in last 3 tourneys) so I don't feel like I've put in the time to optimize the Rw list. Have we abandoned spark trooper? It's been strong for me. Even mono black has to tap out, often for a demon, and then they can be forced to trade demon for sparky.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:22 pm

Aodh, interesting but I think you might need to maindeck at least 1 spark trooper with that much life loss unless you're certain you're playing a low aggro meta. You probably don't need 4 maindeck skullcrack if you're running thoughtsieze to rip the lifegain out of their hand.

Realize, there's no clear consensus at this point on just about any card. Dauntless uses spark trooper and I have from time to time.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:30 pm

I tried it, but never drew it. In general I am against raising the curve because I've had one too many games where I stick on three lands and draw all the 4cc spells.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Wed May 28, 2014 3:05 am

@Realize: Glad to see you back and good result

@L_S: But you play SBD!!! - 4cc can't be THAT bad

@Assemble / Chandra vs Bx Devotion argument: Thanks for the responses guys, I do like Assemble since they HAVE to answer it - but with the version running both YP$ and Revel with BL and Reprisal back up I think the Chandra are slightly more reliable as the I-Win button (Chandra also has more applications against over MU like Lazer said).

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here is the current list I'm running:

[deck=MDU's Rw Burn]Lands 23
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence

Creatures 08
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Exile 03
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

Burn 26
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning
Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Searing Blood

Sideboard 15
4 Toil // Trouble
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Fated Conflagration
1 Reprisal[/deck]

Last Time

SE Report 7129818
G1 R1 B
Aggro vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7129818
G1 R2 B Aggro vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7129818
G1 R3 B Aggro vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7129818

G2 R1 Bg Devotion vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7129818
G2 R2 Bg Devotion vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7129818
G2 R3 Bg Devotion vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7129818

G3 Split

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:11 am

I stopped playing SBD a while back.

Khaospawn · Postby **Khaospawn** » Wed May 28, 2014 9:56 am

I stopped playing SBD a while back.

Dude, that was like, last week!

RedNihilist · Postby **RedNihilist** » Wed May 28, 2014 10:39 am

L_D is too fast for us

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Wed May 28, 2014 1:13 pm

It was three versions ago lol feels like a long time ago.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Wed May 28, 2014 1:15 pm

SBD was not the answer I was looking for. It was too hard to convince them to tap out at that stage in the game.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Wed May 28, 2014 1:26 pm

All the Jund monsters at my LGS are packing 3 Nyleas disciple

Might play in an IQ this Saturday, debating on which list to take.

Khaospawn · Postby **Khaospawn** » Wed May 28, 2014 2:33 pm

Stormbreath was the hero you needed, but not the one that you deserved, LD!

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Wed May 28, 2014 4:27 pm

It worked, but not in the matchup I needed it to work in lol.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Wed May 28, 2014 4:52 pm

People on the Eidolon version, are you planning to leave in Skullcracks vs Monsters deck when bringing in SFD to help stop the Disciple?

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:07 pm

Updated decklist:

[deck]Boros Burn[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells
4 Boros Charm
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Banishing Light
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Fated Conflagration *
1 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Keening Apparition
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
1 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

* might become 1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos

Self Medicated · Postby **Self Medicated** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:13 pm

Updated decklist:

[deck]Boros Burn[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells
4 Boros Charm
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Banishing Light
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Fated Conflagration *
1 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Keening Apparition
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
1 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

* might become 1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos

[card]Toil // Trouble[/card] isn'
t the tits anymore?

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:18 pm

Its fine.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:18 pm

Updated decklist:

[deck]Boros Burn[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells
4 Boros Charm
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Banishing Light
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Fated Conflagration *
1 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Keening Apparition
4
Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
1 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

* might become 1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos

[card]Toil // Trouble[/card] isn't the tits anymore?

Super awkward is you don't hit your third land or if you top deck it late game. Trouble-ing someone for 1 feels bad.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:19 pm

Zeman, not interested in Satry Firedancer over Mortars?

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:22 pm

Its insanely dumb to sideboard Firedancer if you're maindecking Young Pyromancer. That's the definition of low impact sideboarding and YP + Mortars benefits from the cards individually been high quality; Firedancer wants you to keep in lava spikes against decks where lava spike is otherwise unplayable just to try and make your situationally good card less often situationally bad. No thanks.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:24 pm

Brimaz would be there to help break parity in matchups where you are trading everything 1-for-1 and need a way to 20 them from a relatively empty hand.

Khaospawn · Postby **Khaospawn** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:28 pm

Updated decklist:

[deck]Boros Burn[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells
4 Boros Charm
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Banishing Light
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Fated Conflagration *
1 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Keening Apparition
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
1 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

* might become 1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos

[card]Toil // Trouble[/card] isn't the tits anymore?
Super awkward is you don't hit your third land or if you top deck it late game. Trouble-ing someone for 1 feels bad.

Can I Trouble you for a glass of warm milk?

You can Trouble me for a warm glass of shut the hell up!

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:31 pm

Its insanely dumb to sideboard Firedancer if you're maindecking Young Pyromancer. That's the definition of low impact sideboarding and YP + Mortars benefits from the cards individually been high quality; Firedancer wants you to keep in lava spikes against decks where lava spike is otherwise unplayable just to try and make your situationally good card less often situationally bad. No thanks.

In my experience, the decks where you bring in Firedancer are ones where they can't remove it. Once you have a Firedancer in play, often along a YP$, you get so much value out of each spell drawn that they have no chance and you just bury them under VCA. Every card becomes a 3 for 1. Just a thought. I've personally found Firedancer to be amazing recently.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:32 pm

Brimaz would be there to help break parity in matchups where you are trading everything 1-for-1 and need a way to 20 them from a relatively empty hand.

That makes sense. I think it would be very good as mirror breaker tech as well.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:36 pm

Its insanely dumb to sideboard Firedancer if you're maindecking Young Pyromancer. That's the definition of low impact sideboarding and YP + Mortars benefits from the cards individually been high quality; Firedancer wants you to keep in lava spikes against decks where lava spike is otherwise unplayable just to try and make your situationally good card less often situationally bad. No thanks.
In my experience, the decks where you bring in Firedancer are ones where they can't remove it. Once you have a Firedancer in play, often along a YP$, you get so much value out of each spell
drawn that they have no chance and you just bury them under VCA. Every card becomes a 3 for 1. Just a thought. I've personally found Firedancer to be amazing recently.

Your spell count frequently drops dangerously low with this approach. Firedancer without multiple spells in hand is horrendous since you're usually not racing, you're trying to play control so the Searing Blaze effect isn't relevant immediately.

DixieFlatline · Postby **DixieFlatline** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:39 pm

Updated decklist:

[deck]Boros Burn[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells
4 Boros Charm
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Banishing Light
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Fated Conflagration *
1 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Keening Apparition
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
1 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

* might become 1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos

Thanks Zem. I'm with you on Eidolon of the Great
Revel - if you're playing this deck with the intention of burning your opponents face until you win you're playing it incorrectly. Eidolon is a feeble attempt to speed up that clumsy and cumbersome strategy.

This sideboard is really robust and interesting, I'll definitely delve into it further in testing a bit this week.

How has everyone's experience been in siding against BG Devotion? I'm playing Chained to the Rocks in spite of Golgari Charm since that's our only answer to the demon outside of YP tokens.

Khaospawn · Postby **Khaospawn** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:43 pm

Eidolon is awesome in the right matchups. For realz.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:47 pm

That makes sense. What is you motivation for running Keening Apparition? Just a bear that can blow up a Dsphere? Where do you want Fated Conflagration?

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Wed May 28, 2014 6:37 pm

I think 1 or 2 of the guildgates should be Mana Confluence. The card has been awesome for me more than it has been bad (usually forcing mulligans[assuming playing a mirror])

I dislike only having 2 answers to Staff of Black Magus (1 Wear 1 BL), but the list seems very solid all around, I can see how it suits your playstyle. At a glance it seems much weaker to BG devotion, but I think there will be an expected rise in BW Devo/Jund Monsters, so I could see this list being very well positioned this upcoming weekend.

Something I have noticed when playing FDS against Control players dropping a t2 ram.... they arn't as likely to block with mana left open (from my experience.). I think they value gaining an incremental 1 life more than stopping 2 dmg.

@LD - Keening is for Control/HExproof/Mono B Aggro (correct me I am wrong Z)

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Wed May 28, 2014 7:11 pm

(1) I think 1 or 2 of the guildgates should be Mana Confluence. The card has been awesome for me more than it has been bad (usually forcing mulligans[assuming playing a mirror])

(2) I dislike only having 2 answers to Staff of Black Magus (1 Wear 1 BL), but the list seems very solid all around, I can see how it suits your playstyle. At a glance it seems much weaker to BG devotion, but I think there will be an expected rise in BW Devo/Jund Monsters, so I could see this list being very well positioned this upcoming weekend.

(3) Something I have noticed when playing FDS against Control players dropping a t2 ram.... they arn't as likely to block with mana left open (from my experience.). I think
they value gaining an incremental 1 life more than stopping 2 dmg.

(4) @LD - Keening is for Control/HExproof/Mono B Aggro (correct me I am wrong Z)

(1) Mana Confluence is a liability against Aggro.

(2) Enchantment hate is bad vs Black Devotion (really it is.... it just sits in your hand or it get discarded if it matters).

(3) Control player shouldn't be blocking with Ram (early or when they're high on life) if you can threaten (kill) it.

(4) Keening is also good in the mirror, its a 2/2 bear with bonuses (and Dredge... but who plays dredge).

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Wed May 28, 2014 7:34 pm

I don't think keening is good in the mirror (MDU, could you please post what you think the SB plan for that variant would be in the mirror?), and Wear Tear is not bad vs BX devo running Staff(artifact that when its run, is a 3-4 of[+a possible combination of whip]).

I also don't think taking 4 damage from your lands (assuming you HAD to play it before turn 3) is worse than casting kill spells/wlh on curve vs aggro. I can't remember the last time i lost an "aggro" matchup playing burn... not being sarcastic... I can't remember (in Paper)

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Wed May 28, 2014 7:40 pm

I don't think keening is good in the mirror (MDU, could you please post what you think the SB plan for that variant would be in the mirror?)

In regards with the Keening vs mirror, I'm surprised you don't like it since you advocated W//T vs Mirror (which I think is horrible) - keening at least does something when they don't have anything in the field - it can also be amusing vs blood.

For a SB plan, I'm not sure I think boarding against the mirror is highly depending on who your playing (etc: vs DtR you can next level them).

Wear Tear is not bad vs BX devo running Staff(artifact that when
its run, is a 3-4 of[+a possible combination of whip]).

I don't agree with the enchantment hate vs Bx Devotion since I don't think staff is very good, that said I'm still running YP$ and friends - perhaps in the Revel version (you still on this plan?) the staff is a huge threat which warrant removing

I also don't think taking 4 damage from your lands (assuming you HAD to play it before turn 3) is worse than casting kill spells/wlh on curve vs aggro. I can't remember the last time i lost an "aggro" matchup playing burn... not being sarcastic... I can't remember (in Paper)

Not being on curve vs Aggro usually represent taking 2 damage, which is much less what you would take over the course of
the game if you hit MC early and don't end up flooding

EDIT: I really need to make sure the post is correct the first time rather then reediting it over and over.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Wed May 28, 2014 8:07 pm

I don't think keening is good in the mirror (MDU, could you please post what you think the SB plan for that variant would be in the mirror?)
In regards with the Keening vs mirror, I'm surprised you don't like it since you advocated W//T vs Mirror (which I think is horrible) - keening at least does something when they don't have anything in the field - it can also be amusing vs blood.

For a SB plan, I'm not sure I think boarding against the mirror is highly depending on who your playing (etc: vs DtR you can next level them).

Wear Tear is not bad vs BX devo running Staff(artifact that when its run, is a 3-4 of[+a possible combination of whip]).
I don't agree with the enchantment hate vs Bx Devotion since I don't think staff is very good, that said I'm still running YP$ and friends - perhaps in the Revel version (you still on this plan?) the staff is a huge threat which warrant removing

I also don't think taking 4 damage from your lands (assuming you HAD to play it before turn 3) is worse than casting kill spells/wlh on curve vs aggro. I can't remember the last time i lost an "aggro" matchup playing burn..
. not being sarcastic... I can't remember (in Paper)
Not being on curve vs Aggro usually represent taking 2 damage, which is much less what you would take over the course of the game if you hit MC early and don't end up flooding

EDIT: I really need to make sure the post is correct the first time rather then reediting it over and over.

Didn't think about Keening vs blood, seems fun now. Also, on wear vs Bx. If anything, I think Yp$ version is much weaker to Staff than Eidolon versions are... T3 staff into Land double removal does not bode well for us.

Also MDu, post a SB guide for the mirror using Z's list vs a generic Eidolon list thats running around (mine or LDs for example). Just curious to how you would tackle it. Is taking out phoenix the answer?

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Wed May 28, 2014 10:12 pm

- I agree that 1 Guildgate should be 1 Mana Confluence; having slightly more ability to curve out sounds good, especially since it is an additional untapped white source, something the deck can actually have trouble with.
- Apparition is for UWx Control, BG Midrange (the Gerry T list), Mono Black Aggro, Hexproof and is reasonable in the mirror (particularly good if they're going up to 4 Chains).

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Thu May 29, 2014 12:22 am

Have you been seeing the Gerry T list much? I have yet to see it (I do think its pretty sick), I am wondering when/if the mind rot tech will catch on.

What do you guys think is better vs monsters, SFD + burn spells, or YP$ + 4 mortars?

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Thu May 29, 2014 12:23 am

vs GR I would take SFD. Against Jund, Mortars is the way to go.

Dies to Removal

[Primer] Boros Burn

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