[Primer] Boros Burn

[zenbitz]

I was kinda lazy on the math (it's more like 70% assuming you no longer want him or the game is over at turn 10) but was assuming we will see around 12 cards in a match out of 60. But I did forget the scry so maybe it's more like 14-20. Matches when we want SFD aren't normally long ones.

With the ACTUAL math we have a 25% chance of seeing a singleton by turn 8, 28.3% by turn 10. Not counting scry. (By turn 2 it's 15% going up to 16.6% if you scry on turn 1)
For a play set we have 69% by 8 and 75% by 10 (again not counting scry).
for a 3-of it's 56% and 64%.

(these are on the draw, on the play you have to shift another turn)

Counting Scry we can probably shift those a couple turns forward. I think going 3/1 would make a lot of sense if you would much rather always have the SFD over the 2nd Pyromancer. But I am not sure that's true at all... double tokens is pretty good.

My general thoughts are
that if we need SFD we should put it in the board and main deck Ashley again.

So if my math was WAY off then you guys play longer games than I do when you want SFD. It was off though.

[Tanro]

Main decking 2 SFD, 3 YP$ atm. But that is not for MTGO Meta. Cut my shock count down to 1. If there was a better card to see every game it would he zero. I don't like shock.

[Elricity]

Odd, I'm actually liking shock quite a bit right now.

[Purp]

Here's where I am after TNM

[deck]
3 YP$
1 Satyr Firedancer
4 Chandra's Pheonix

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Shock
2 Searing Blood (Might try 1 Searing Blood 1 Flames of the Firebrand)

2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

7 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Trimph
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Mailce
1 Mana Confluence

SB
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light
1 Mutavault
4 Toil//Trouble
1 Stormbreath
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Wear//Tear
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Assemble the Legion[/deck]

Vs mono B: -4 Shock 4 Boros Charm +2 Chandra +1 Muta +1 Assemble +2 Chain +1 Banishing Light +1 Wear//Tear (assuming I see a whip)
Vs Mono Black with Green: -4 Shock -1 SFD -3 YP$ -2 Searing Blood +4 Toil +1 Muta +2 Chain +1 Banishing Light +2 Chandra (this could change depending on the play or on the draw. On the draw I might
want more weays to protect myself from packrats)

[JohnnyfnB]

Purp that looks tight! Let us know how you make out. I'm not running YP, I'm running 4 CP, 2 SFD. 3 Searing Blood, 3 Shock, 2 Toil/Trouble, 2 Cttr, 1 Banishing Light. The rest of the main is identical to yours. My shop is big in Jund/G/R, B/W so I'm trying Reprisals in my sb.

[zemanjaski]

Updated 75:

[deck]Boros Burn as at 7 May 2014[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
1 Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
2 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault
9 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Harness by Force
4 Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]

[Purp]

After playing last night, went 2-2 (could of easily been 3-1). Lost to a burn mirror (he drew to 2 WLH to my 1 in g3) and lost to reanimator.. this match was pretty difficult. I beat Junk Midrange and Rakdos Aggro(matchup was too close!). So for right now the list I posted is where I am at for my testing for the open this weekend in knoxville, the 2nd banishing light was great for me the past week, but in an open environment I am destined to play aggro in the early rounds. Which is why I might want to try 1 Searing Blood 1 Flames.

[DixieFlatline]

Here's where I am after TNM

[deck]
3 YP$
1 Satyr Firedancer
4 Chandra's Pheonix

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 Shock
2 Searing Blood (Might try 1 Searing Blood 1 Flames of the Firebrand)

2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

7 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Trimph
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Mailce
SB
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light
1 Mutavault
4 Toil//Trouble
1 Stormbreath
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Wear//Tear
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Assemble the Legion[/deck]

Vs mono B: -4 Shock 4 Boros Charm +2 Chandra +1 Muta +1 Assemble +2 Chain +1 Banishing Light +1 Wear//Tear (assuming I see a whip)
Vs Mono Black with Green: -4 Shock -1 SFD -3 YP$ -2 Searing Blood +4 Toil +1 Muta +2
Chain +1 Banishing Light +2 Chandra (this could change depending on the play or on the draw. On the draw I might want more ways to protect myself from packrats)

I like this list a lot. I'm beginning to think Mana Confluence is worse and worse every time I play it and the full 8 scry lands really seem like they just get you there. Games where this deck can't scry enough are almost auto losses. 2 Chained to the Rocks and 1 Banishing Light main I think is the perfect place to be - respecting the power of the 1 mana exile a creature and the catch all of O Ring. With BW Cartel Aristocrat/Atheros/Xanthrid (wtf are we calling this?) decks, 2 Searing Blood is more than fine, 1 SB 1 Firedancer seems fine as well, maybe a bit stronger I suspect.

How'd you end up doing last night, Purp?

[Purp]

How has your testing been Z?

I am assuming Your mono B SB would be -4 Shock -4 Boros Charm -1 Searing Blood +2 Chain +1 banishing light +2 Chandra +4 FDS? How much does it change for BG Devo?

Harness seems like it could be good, but I feel like I am losing midrange matchups due to multiple of big creatures, not necessarily just one.

I think 2 mana confluence is fine, I think it's crucial to not have t2 tapped plays, but lands that can cast your spells.

[Lightning_Dolt]

You can take 2 guys for 6!

[Noah Lott]

Here's where I am after TNM

[deck]
3 YP$
1 Satyr Firedancer
4 Chandra's Pheonix

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 Shock
2 Searing Blood (Might try 1 Searing Blood 1 Flames of the Firebrand)

2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

7 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Trimph
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Mailce
SB
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light
1 Mutavault
4 Toil//Trouble
1 Stormbreath
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Wear//Tear
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Assemble the Legion[/deck]

Vs mono B: -4 Shock 4 Boros Charm +2 Chandra +1 Muta +1 Assemble +2 Chain +1 Banishing Light +1 Wear//Tear (assuming I see a whip)
Vs Mono Black with Green: -4 Shock -1 SFD -3 YP$ -2 Searing Blood +4 Toil +1 Muta +2
Chain +1 Banishing Light +2 Chandra (this could change depending on the play or on the draw. On the draw I might want more weays to protect myself from packrats)

5 Cards missing from MB?

[Purp]

interesting, it might be answer to dredge/reanimator I am looking for.

[Purp]

Here's where I am after TNM

[deck]
3 YP$
1 Satyr Firedancer
4 Chandra's Pheonix

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 Shock
2 Searing Blood (Might try 1 Searing Blood 1 Flames of the Firebrand)

2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

7 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Trimph
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Mailce
SB
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light
1 Mutavault
4 Toil//Trouble
1 Stormbreath
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Wear//Tear
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Assemble the Legion[/deck]

Vs mono B: -4 Shock 4 Boros Charm +2 Chandra +1 Muta +1
Assemble +2 Chain +1 Banishing Light +1 Wear//Tear (assuming I see a whip)
Vs Mono Black with Green: -4 Shock -1 SFD -3 YP$ -2 Searing Blood +4 Toil +1 Muta +2 Chain +1 Banishing Light +2 Chandra (this could change depending on the play or on the draw. On the draw I might want more weays to protect myself from packrats)

5 Cards missing from MB?

4 Warleader's Helix 1 Mana Confluence:p

[Purp]

Z is your list tested or just put together (I know youve been practicing modern and block). Control decks are slamming 2-3 Rams in their SBs, which can outclass FDS very easily.

[Pedros]

Good value for good decklist Z, thanks if it was in response to my pm

Have grinders on friday while waiting for GP, might play in some standard events to get more byes. Also good having backup deck if I have to drop from main event as I suck in limited.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Z is your list tested or just put together (I know youve been practicing modern and block). Control decks are slamming 2-3 Rams in their SBs, which can outclass FDS very easily.

Very true.

[Elricity]

Early game, I just kill the ram. Late game you can't deal with it but the game is over for several reasons that are basically unrelated to him.

[Purp]

Z is your list tested or just put together (I know youve been practicing modern and block). Control decks are slamming 2-3 Rams in their SBs, which can outclass FDS very easily.

Very true.

A good debate to be had is whether or not 4 Toil is just as good as 4 FDS vs Mono B/Mono Bg. Im sure FDS is good vs dredge and reanimator decks (is it better than just playing mortars to remove their dorks?). Not sure if I like them for the junk matchup, would probably just put in 4 mortars there.

Toil is def better vs control in my eyes (the addition of ram and shift to UWR[
more early creature removal]).

Against straight mono black it needs testing. Is toiling them while they have a hand full of creature removal better than an FDS eating a removal spell (Since we dont have Assemble.) However toil is a bit weaker to the 4 Duress they WILL be bringing in.

Against Black green, I can see its merit, it forces them to POSSIBLY play abrupt decay/golgari charm on a 1 drop and not our chains/banishing light. However, thanks to Tenjum and todds article from today:

---

[deck]
Creatures (16)

4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Pack Rat

Lands (26)

12 Swamp
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Malady

Spells (18)

4 Underworld Connections
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Bile Blight
1 Devour Flesh
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Dark Betrayal
1 Devour Flesh

1 Golgari Charm
3 Pharika's Cure
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Duress
[/deck]

Pharikas cure will now be seeing more play from all black list (splash or no splash.)

From this alone, it seems Toil is the way to go.

[Lightning_Dolt]

How do you kill the Ram? You have 3 maindeck answers and it can't possibly be correct to side in more against it. If you mean to run a creature into it and then burn it, that feels like a waste of resources to me. I think it's probably better to just ignore it and try to weather the storm.

VS UW/x Control, I imagine Zem's 75 boards:

-2 Chained to the Rocks
-2 Searing Blood
-3 Shock
+1 Banishing Light
+2 Chandra, Pyromaster
+4 Firedrinker Satyr

I'm not a fan of this approach really.

My tweak would be:

[deck]Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
1 Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
2 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1
Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Toil // Touble
2 Harness by Force
4 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

I personally feel that the less interactive we are, the better. [card:26z9zq17]Toil // Trouble[/card:26z9zq17] it not particularly interactive. I agree with Purp on [card:26z9zq17]Toil // Trouble[/card:26z9zq17] vs mono black, but especially vs B/g. [card:26z9zq17]Mana Confluence[/card:26z9zq17] helps us, because they are white sources that can also cast [card:26z9zq17]toil // trouble[/card:26z9zq17].

I am also a supporter of MDU's plan of running [card:26z9zq17]Flames of the Firebrand[/card:26z9zq17] over [card:26z9zq17]Searing Blood[/card:26z9zq17]. [card:26z9zq17]Searing Blood[/card:26z9zq17] is amazing, but often dead. [card:26z9zq17]Nightveil Spectre[/card:26z9zq17] is a thing, and I'm seeing a resurgence of Mono Black Aggro locally, and [card:26z9zq17]Flames of the Firebrand[/card:26z9zq17] just beats that deck.

[Elricity]

For trouble, I was actually losing some luster with it last night even against esper control since their curve answers havw been dropping. I rarely had it hit for more than 3 which is terrible. The card has always ranged from mediocre to miserable against mono black and I only used to bring in a couple when on the play. I wouldn't exactly be slamming in 4 FDS vs GB control either though but that's fine because I had different cards I was boarding in anyway.

For ram, of course I mean burning it when they block. You 1 for 1 it but you certainly don't want to ignore it unless you have a creature swarm to go around it that makes the lifegain moot and you have a real chance of burning them out directly. It provides too much lifegain via block/upkeep to ignore it early game and there's no incentive to letting it sit out there. I've played several game now vs UWx control using ram and I'm just always glad that it wasn't
Fiendslayer.

Be curious how threaten has been working against BG control. It strikes me as situational if they have enough creature backup to tap the demon, typically with mutavaults. Then again, I've had zero opportunity to test against that deck.

[Purp]

UW packs the ram. UWR packs up to 9 counterspells postboard. Tough call. I think its interesting we have abandoned the 4th mutavault, the decks we want to hit 4 land on turn 4 are still decks we want to hit 4 land on t4 on. I dont dislike the 2 FotF but I think I will try a split of SBlood/FotF @ Thursday night magic.

I am not convinced I don't still want 1 wear. The existence of both UWR and Esper make the one of dragon bad (combined with the def shift to every deck playing multiple celestial flares) so I can see getting rid of this guy.

If I wanted to tweak your version a bit more LD/JS

[deck]Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Satyr Firedancer

Enchantments
1 Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
1 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Searing Blood
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
2 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault
n8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Toil // Touble
1 Harness by Force (card is just untested for me to justify not wanting the 4th mutavault) //// 1 Wear/Tear (I expect a rise in Whips, ench creatures etc...this card can literally be brought into almost every matchup now)
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
[/deck]

Esper imo is the least played of the 3 control decks, I think toil hedges MUCH better against UW and UWR.

[Elricity]

I think its interesting we have abandoned the 4th mutavault, the decks we want to hit 4 land on turn 4 are still decks we want to hit 4 land on t4 on.

You misspelled "he has". That's ok, I still let "mainboard" slip out on occassion.

Snark aside, in his specific sideboard, he doesn't need land 24 if his curve is staying virtually the same post sideboard.

[Purp]

-2 Assemble, no need to hit the 5th land, ok I can see that now.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I've never been a fan of land in the SB, and since we no longer have five drops, I think it's superfluous.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Golgari Charm means Assemble is no longer auto win.

[Purp]

Ok
[deck]
Sideboard
1 Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Toil // Touble
1 Harness by Force(+1)
3 Mizzium Mortars (+1)
1 Wear//Tear(+1)
[/deck]

[Pedros]

I also am thinking flames of the firebrand are better than seering blood right now.

Why you want to play wear//tear when you can just play additional basnishing light?

Is our old favourite Viashino dead?

Btw do you still go for no creatures plan vs black / bg? Or it isnt good when we dont have assemble the legion to back this plan up?

[BrainsickHater]

I also am thinking flames of the firebrand are better than seering blood right now.

Why you want to play wear//tear when you can just play additional basnishing light?

Is our old favourite Viashino dead?

Btw do you still go for no creatures plan vs black / bg? Or it isnt good when we dont have assemble the legion to back this plan up?

- Wear // Tear is more efficient and instant speed
- Viashino seems pretty dead with Nyx-Fleece Ram and Blind Obedience being cards

On Flames of the Firebrand vs Searing Blood: Here's how I think about SB and FotF, and maybe this will help you guys think about the two cards as well.
FotF is a flexible burn spell that can serve as very good removal
against small aggro decks. Against X/1s, it can generate a 2-for-1 or even a 3-for-1 very easily. Against decks that play X/3s, it also conveniently removes them as well. The downside to this card is that it costs 3 mana and is sorcery speed; this card effectively costs us our entire turn much of the time it is played. Searing Blood doesn't generate card advantage in the way that FotF does, but it still does so. The extra Lightning Bolt tacked onto the shock effect is very much worth a card when we are playing the burn deck. As most of you probably know, when you're trying to get your opponent from 20-0, a free 3 points of damage is 3 points of damage less that you need to find in the other cards in your hand/deck. Furthermore, the instant speed and lower mana cost of Searing Blood fits much more comfortably in our deck. I think that when you consider what these two cards do, it's obvious that Searing Blood is better in a dedicated burn shell while
FotF is better when we want to control the board.

I think that as a burn deck, our first priority is the opponent's life total. I would rather play Searing Blood against small aggro, because it still clears a dude and slows their clock, but it also contributes to my deck's game plan. If we feel like we should be playing FotF, maybe it's time to consider that burn is no longer the deck we should be playing. Over time we've transitioned farther and farther from a true burn deck, most notably with the switch to Young Pyromancer and SB cards like Assemble and Chandra. Additionally, now that burn is a known quantity a lot of decks are packing hate. We might be reaching a point where there's so much hate that the deck is poorly positioned.

Also, BG dredge is a thing, and idk if you guys have played against it, but it can be very hard for us to beat. Master of the Feast is SB tech that some people at my LGS have figured out, and we actually cannot
beat that card in the BG dredge deck. Even if we draw more cards, our burn matches up awkwardly against their creatures, they overload our terror effects, and their cheap fatties are hard to race to say the least. BG decks are also just a pain in the ass because of Golgari Charm.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I find dredge to range from "That was easy" to "almost a bye" to be honest.

[BrainsickHater]

I find dredge to range from "That was easy" to "almost a bye" to be honest.

I used to think the exact same thing. Then I played against a very updated dredge list that my friends were working on. It gets off the ground reasonably quickly, and overloads our reactive spells. They put us in a position where we have to kill their dudes, and then play too many dudes for us to kill, or dudes that we just can't kill.

For reference, a list of cards that tore my ass open:
- Master of the Feast
- Nemesis of Mortals
- Jarad
- Whip of Erebos
- Herald of Torment
- Nighthowler
- Strength from the Fallen
- Lotleth Troll

A few of these cards are extremely problematic on their lonesome (looking at you lotleth
troll), but it's not that any one card beats us. It's when they put a certain amount of critical mass in their deck the matchup becomes very hard. Granted, most decks are not playing Master of the Feast or Strength from the Fallen, but I would expect to see both in the future. Master shits on aggro, and Strength turns every little stupid Wayfinder or Elvish Mystic into a beast.

[Purp]

I find dredge to range from "That was easy" to "almost a bye" to be honest.

I will argue that you havn't: A) played this matchup recently B) Played this match a lot C) Played against a competent pilot. The deck is tough, and with the rise of re animator these will become more popular. There are people suggesting playing 4 MD copies of whip.

[montu]

I personally feel that the less interactive we are, the better.

Just so I'm clear (because I heard the term again today), by "interact" you mean doing something that affects their board state, vs burning them or attacking?

[Elricity]

I think that when you consider what these two cards do, it's obvious that Searing Blood is better in a dedicated burn shell while FotF is better when we want to control the board.

I think that as a burn deck, our first priority is the opponent's life total. I would rather play Searing Blood against small aggro, because it still clears a dude and slows their clock, but it also contributes to my deck's game plan. If we feel like we should be playing FotF, maybe it's time to consider that burn is no longer the deck we should be playing. Over time we've transitioned farther and farther from a true burn deck, most notably with the switch to Young Pyromancer and SB cards like
Assemble and Chandra. Additionally, now that burn is a known quantity a lot of decks are packing hate. We might be reaching a point where there's so much hate that the deck is poorly positioned.

For a time, it was actually more reliable to play battlecruiser magic because the answers to it were low but I can see the point. It's certainly more to the intent behind his build. If opponents start doing silly things like packing 4 charms, then there's always ash zealot.

[BiddingMaster]

Updated 75:

[deck]Boros Burn as at 7 May 2014[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
1 Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
2 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault
9 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Harness by Force
4 Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]

This is a list for paper am I correct? Also what matchup do we board in harness? The
only one that I can think of are the control decks for that last punch of damage for the game. Seems dicey against demons if they have mutavault or any other dude. Those two are the only decks that I can see boarding it in for but I am still not sure about how the cards works against the current meta.

[Purp]

---

Updated 75:

[deck]Boros Burn as at 7 May 2014[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
1 Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
2 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault
9 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks
2
Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Harness by Force
4 Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]

This is a list for paper am I correct? Also what matchup do we board in harness? The only one that I can think of are the control decks for that last punch of damage for the game. Seems dicey against demons if they have mutavault or any other dude. Those two are the only decks that I can see boarding it in for but I am still not sure about how the cards works against the current meta.

Monsters and Junk are what it's for. Def not control.

[Lightning_Dolt]

@ Purp and Brainsick: My protege plays dredge, so I've actually played against it a lot (although he is a newer pilot). I also played against it between matches last week and didn't lose any. YP$ does a lot of work against them, and you have all your exile effects for problematic creatures. I don't think I've dropped a game. If they ever go to FOUR copies of whip, their deck will start beating itself more than it already does (seriously, their dredges are pretty bad from a consistency point of view). Focus your chains on LOL Trolls, use your Orings for Whip and chump everything else with YP$ tokens. If they ever tap out with LOL troll in play, burn it. Then they have to choose between dumping their hand or losing it. The versions I've played against don't play Master, but if they do, direct everything at the face and direct your extra cards at the face. Use Chandra's Phoenix defensively. People generally won't attack
with a 5/5 or a 3/3 flying into a 2/2 flier that you can buy back if you have cards in hand and mana up. It they do, feel free to punish them with block + strike. Herald or Torment is a pretty bad card against us because it advances our strategy. Time your skullcracks well, you should be OK.

@ Montu: What I mean is basically playing a different game than your opponent is. Mono Black / B/g is playing a bunch of creatures and creature removal. They want to play that game. We refuse to play that game and play our own game of counting to 20. They have a bunch of dead removal in hand and we win through VCA / Tempo / not interaction.

[BrainsickHater]

[quote="Lightning_Dolt » Wed May 07, 2014 2:28 pm"]@ Purp and Brainsick: My protege plays dredge, so I've actually played against it a lot (although he is a newer pilot). I also played against it between matches last week and didn't lose any. YP$ does a lot of work against them, and you have all your exile effects for problematic creatures. I don't think I've dropped a game. If they ever go to FOUR copies of whip, their deck will start beating itself more than it already does (seriously, their dredges are pretty bad from a consistency point of view). Focus your chains on LOL Trolls, use your Orings for Whip and chump everything else with YP$ tokens. If they ever tap out with LOL troll in play, burn it. Then they have to choose between dumping their hand or losing it. The versions I've played against don't play
Master, but if they do, direct everything at the face and direct your extra cards at the face. Use Chandra's Phoenix defensively. People generally won't attack with a 5/5 or a 3/3 flying into a 2/2 flier that you can buy back if you have cards in hand and mana up. It they do, feel free to punish them with block + strike. Herald or Torment is a pretty bad card against us because it advances our strategy. Time your skullcracks well, you should be OK.

I am 100% behind your plan, and that's exactly how I would approach the matchup, but the problem is that in many games, that approach will not always be feasible. Here are what I feel are the key points you just described:
1. Chump with YP Tokens
2. Chain Trolls
3. If they play Master, point at face and start to race
4. Use Phoenix defensively

And here are the problems with those points:
1. They all rely on you having particular cards. For points 1, 2, and 4, you need to have a specific card. For point 3, you need to draw into enough burn
to actually race a Master of the Feast + all the other dudes he has on field.
2. Even if you draw the right cards, it oftentimes won't be enough. The reason why Herald of Torment is actually nuts against us is because it makes all my YP tokens useless (which has happened to me) and forces us to deal with 2 fliers, the first of which will usually eat a chained to the rocks. This leads right into why saving Chains for trolls doesn't work; there are way too many targets that need chaining and we can't afford to two-for-one their creatures with our burn if we want to race.
3. You didn't even take into account strength from the fallen, which forces us to have an 0-Ring or keep their board totally clear.
4. Just as we have specific cards that help us considerably, they have specific cards to counter them. Whip is obviously disgusting, but a real backbreaker is Golgari Charm. For two mana, they buy back the troll we chained, sweep all our chump blockers, or make us cry when we are forced to attempt a 2-
for-1 with our burn to remove our creatures.
5. Playing defensively with Phoenix just...doesn't work half the time. It takes five mana to cast a burn spell and replay phoenix, and if we can't do that then we can't use Phoenix defensively without being absurdly slow. Much of the time we'll just be too far behind by the time we get 5 lands to try and grind out the game with Phoenix.

Bottom line is, they have way too many cards that are good against us, and we don't have anything that hoses them back.

I will grant that this is the Master of the Feast build that I'm talking about, and it might not catch on. However, if aggro becomes more popular, expect the card.

[zenbitz]

Act of Treason effects seem quite good against BG. I could barely win 1/2 games against the old BG dredge.

[JohnnyfnB]

@ Purp and Brainsick: My protege plays dredge, so I've actually played against it a lot (although he is a newer pilot). I also played against it between matches last week and didn't lose any. YP$ does a lot of work against them, and you have all your exile effects for problematic creatures. I don't think I've dropped a game. If they ever go to FOUR copies of whip, their deck will start beating itself more than it already does (seriously, their dredges are pretty bad from a consistency point of view). Focus your chains on LOL Trolls, use your Orings for Whip and chump everything else with YP$
tokens. If they ever tap out with LOL troll in play, burn it. Then they have to choose between dumping their hand or losing it. The versions I've played against don't play Master, but if they do, direct everything at the face and direct your extra cards at the face. Use Chandra's Phoenix defensively. People generally won't attack with a 5/5 or a 3/3 flying into a 2/2 flier that you can buy back if you have cards in hand and mana up. It they do, feel free to punish them with block + strike. Herald or Torment is a pretty bad card against us because it advances our strategy. Time your skullcracks well, you should be OK.

I am 100% behind your plan, and that's exactly how I would approach the matchup, but the problem is that in many games, that approach will not always be feasible. Here are what I feel are the key points you just described:
1. Chump with YP Tokens
2. Chain Trolls
3. If they play Master, point at face and start to race
4. Use Phoenix defensively

And here are the problems
with those points:
1. They all rely on you having particular cards. For points 1, 2, and 4, you need to have a specific card. For point 3, you need to draw into enough burn to actually race a Master of the Feast + all the other dudes he has on field.
2. Even if you draw the right cards, it oftentimes won't be enough. The reason why Herald of Torment is actually nuts against us is because it makes all my YP tokens useless (which has happened to me) and forces us to deal with 2 fliers, the first of which will usually eat a chained to the rocks. This leads right into why saving Chains for trolls doesn't work; there are way too many targets that need chaining and we can't afford to two-for-one their creatures with our burn if we want to race.
3. You didn't even take into account strength from the fallen, which forces us to have an 0-Ring or keep their board totally clear.
4. Just as we have specific cards that help us considerably, they have specific cards to counter them. Whip is obviously
disgusting, but a real backbreaker is Golgari Charm. For two mana, they buy back the troll we chained, sweep all our chump blockers, or make us cry when we are forced to attempt a 2-for-1 with our burn to remove our creatures.
5. Playing defensively with Phoenix just...doesn't work half the time. It takes five mana to cast a burn spell and replay phoenix, and if we can't do that then we can't use Phoenix defensively without being absurdly slow. Much of the time we'll just be too far behind by the time we get 5 lands to try and grind out the game with Phoenix.

Bottom line is, they have way too many cards that are good against us, and we don't have anything that hoses them back.

I will grant that this is the Master of the Feast build that I'm talking about, and it might not catch on. However, if aggro becomes more popular, expect the card.

Reprisal takes care of Master of the Feast, as well as
Banishing Light and Chain to the Rocks. If you also side Wear/Tear that destroys Master of the Feast too. We have answers, it just depends on ones build and ones meta.

[BrainsickHater]

@ Purp and Brainsick: My protege plays dredge, so I've actually played against it a lot (although he is a newer pilot). I also played against it between matches last week and didn't lose any. YP$ does a lot of work against them, and you have all your exile effects for problematic creatures. I don't think I've dropped a game. If they ever go to FOUR copies of whip, their deck will start beating itself more than it already does (
seriously, their dredges are pretty bad from a consistency point of view). Focus your chains on LOL Trolls, use your Orings for Whip and chump everything else with YP$ tokens. If they ever tap out with LOL troll in play, burn it. Then they have to choose between dumping their hand or losing it. The versions I've played against don't play Master, but if they do, direct everything at the face and direct your extra cards at the face. Use Chandra's Phoenix defensively. People generally won't attack with a 5/5 or a 3/3 flying into a 2/2 flier that you can buy back if you have cards in hand and mana up. It they do, feel free to punish them with block + strike. Herald or Torment is a pretty bad card against us because it advances our strategy. Time your skullcracks well, you should be OK.

I am 100% behind your plan, and that's exactly how I would approach the matchup, but the problem is that in many games, that approach will not always be feasible. Here are what I feel are the key points you just
described:
1. Chump with YP Tokens
2. Chain Trolls
3. If they play Master, point at face and start to race
4. Use Phoenix defensively

And here are the problems with those points:
1. They all rely on you having particular cards. For points 1, 2, and 4, you need to have a specific card. For point 3, you need to draw into enough burn to actually race a Master of the Feast + all the other dudes he has on field.
2. Even if you draw the right cards, it oftentimes won't be enough. The reason why Herald of Torment is actually nuts against us is because it makes all my YP tokens useless (which has happened to me) and forces us to deal with 2 fliers, the first of which will usually eat a chained to the rocks. This leads right into why saving Chains for trolls doesn't work; there are way too many targets that need chaining and we can't afford to two-for-one their creatures with our burn if we want to race.
3. You didn't even take into account strength from the fallen, which forces us to have an 0-
Ring or keep their board totally clear.
4. Just as we have specific cards that help us considerably, they have specific cards to counter them. Whip is obviously disgusting, but a real backbreaker is Golgari Charm. For two mana, they buy back the troll we chained, sweep all our chump blockers, or make us cry when we are forced to attempt a 2-for-1 with our burn to remove our creatures.
5. Playing defensively with Phoenix just...doesn't work half the time. It takes five mana to cast a burn spell and replay phoenix, and if we can't do that then we can't use Phoenix defensively without being absurdly slow. Much of the time we'll just be too far behind by the time we get 5 lands to try and grind out the game with Phoenix.

Bottom line is, they have way too many cards that are good against us, and we don't have anything that hoses them back.

I will grant that this is the Master of the Feast build that I'm talking about, and it might not catch on. However, if aggro becomes
more popular, expect the card.

Reprisal takes care of Master of the Feast, as well as Banishing Light and Chain to the Rocks. If you also side Wear/Tear that destroys Master of the Feast too. We have answers, it just depends on ones build and ones meta.

So we board in mono-answers? That seems like a recipe for defeat. BG Dredge is the new monsters; we have to race it and it's a tough race. The key is to board in enough answers that they show up when you need the tempo, but not so many that you lose the race.

Also, I think that the way the meta is changing we should move back to a more burn-oriented approach. With Mono Black being represented by BG Devotion and BG Dredge gaining popularity, our enchantment-based removal is at its weakest. It is becoming increasingly difficult to adopt the control plan against decks when decklists are being
built to be resilient against control. I think our Chains and O-rings serve us best as answers that buy us enough time to end the game as opposed to permanent answers we can use to grind out our opponent on the back of YP.