Counterburn (JOU)

[zenbitz]

Related to other thread:

[deck]
VAT
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Rapid Hybridization
3 Hour of Need
3 Turn // Burn
1 AEtherling

Counter
2 Izzet Charm
2 Counterflux
2 Syncopate

Burn
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Chandra, Pyromaster


landz
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Steam Vents
4 Temple of Epiphany
2 Mutavault
4 Island
5 Mountain


sideboard
2 Gainsay
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Counterflux
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Skullcrack
1 Turn // Burn
1 Steam Augury
[/deck]

This is essentially Zem's burn deck with more expensive and general terrors and 4 damage white spells replaced with counters. (Gee zenbitz, when you put it like that it seems awful!)

It should be significantly more control-y but with significant pressure vs. "True" control. I could see running a singleton Keranos, God of Storms as
well - either in place of the Aetherling or Steam Augury. Not sure if 6 md counters is enough, and no pyromancer hands seem very awkward. Hybridizing Phoenix seems good post damage. Sphinx'ing it not so much.

Also kind of like Frostburn Weird against non-black decks. Unsure if I need skullcrack with 10 counterspells for Rev... but I figure it stuffs lifelinkers as well.

[Tyrael]

According to zem counterburn strategies only work in a slow format with an overall weak power level

this might be the time

I also think running Keranos here would be a good idea since your strategy is quite grindy

[zenbitz]

N of 1 but I just beat an on curve obzedat by turning it into a sphinx, then dragging out the game until I could kill it.

Not the most efficient win ever.

[zenbitz]

On the hilarious flip side, I ran into a Bx deck that just happened to be running Illness in the ranks in his board, and played one turn 1. I still came within a topdecked burn spell of winning game 2.

[Jasper]

I can't really comment on your list since it's moving in a different direction than mine. Have you considered Battlefield Thaumaturge? He works well with Strive spells, and makes Flames of the Firebrand a bargain to cast.


This is the Counterburn list I'll be testing this week on Cockatrice and at FNM. Just need to get the 4 Temple of Epiphany, which may be a little difficult.

[deck]
Creatures 12
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Spellheart Chimera
2 Keranos, God of Storms

Spells
4 Lightning Strike
4 Izzet Charm
4 Magma Jet
3 Spite of Mogis
4 Shock
1 Mizzium Mortars

4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Steam Vents
4 Izzet Guildgate
2 Mutavault
10 Mountain

Our guy, and dem Thighs 4
2 Ral Zarek
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard 15
4 Skullcrack
3 Turn // Burn
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Counterflux
2 Essence Scatter
2 Negate
[/deck]

I've also been considering an alternative creature package
consisting of 4 Frostburn Weird and 4 Boros Reckoner, because having 1 of each of those out gives not only a solid wall to block with, but also turns Keranos into a creature. Doing so forces out the phoenix and YP$ though, and I'm currently pretty happy with how they've been performing.

[zenbitz]

My first test was with the Thaumaturge (and curse of the swine with X=infinity). I found that he was like a worse goblin electromancer except in rare instances.

I have almost abandoned this list. Hour of Need is very amusing but not a real card. Turn // Burn is waaaay to slow in a deck that wants to be casting 2 instants/turn with 5 mana (i.e, mine). I also was testing Keranos in place of Aetherling (with a second in the SB) but actually at 5 he's not that useful either except in very particular MUs (grindy ones that don't run exile enchantments). Ironically I used him most in a weird grixis match in which he was using walkers to turn on Keranos.

In general I found that this deck works kind of like the boros burn (not surprising they are basically the same shell) BUT with the added inconsistency of having
counters when you need burn and vice versa. I kept pushing it more and more permission-y (there aren't any good red burn spells left)... but at some point you realize that the card you need is Sphinx's Revelation and then you are back with the animals.

I thought that the counterspells would make it a little better vs. hexproof but I couldn't get the timing right (maybe essence scatter would work better). Dissolving an Unflinching Courage is ... well, it's better than losing to it.

I like your deck but it's very weak to desecration demon (assuming they are also capable of killing YP). Others have recommended Spellheart Chimera as well but he seems terrible against spot removal.

I do think Spite of Mogis has some potential...

How is Ral?

[hoeiberg]

I ran some UR in the beginning og the format, it wasn't very good but i did get quite a few games with it. In my experience YP$ is the best card in the deck, he is so much value. Spellheart Chimera was useless, vs aggro it was too slow and vs control and midrange it was too weak to removal. Chandra's Phoenix was way better. The deck NEEDS Turn/Burn and it needs 4 in the 75. Yes it's agonizingly slow, but it is the only way to answer all of the dominant creatures in the format without 2-for-1ing yourself. WIthout Turn/Burn you have no answer to: Polukranos, Stormbreath Dragon, Arbor Colossus, Ghost Counsil, Thassa (active) and i probably forgot several (I know that mortars kills dragon, but not before it hits you for 4, which will be a problem for you at this point in the game and considering you have no lifegain.
Rapid Hybridization is not where you want to be if you are trying to control, since it does not remove your
opponent's threat, it just replaces it. Yes, it replaces it with something less threatening but a 3/3 is actually still very relevant and you need to spend an extra card to get rid of it.

Sadly i think you just can't play neither control nor burn without white these days. Since white has all the good tools for both including cheap unconditional removal (Chained, O-ring) and card advantage engines (Revelation, Verdict)

[zenbitz]

Turn // burn very frustrating. I always needed it and could often not cast it. Rapid is mostly to null spot removal, but also for the occasional ghost dad.

[hoeiberg]

Often i found you don't need to cast it. Tunr alone on an attacking creature lets you block and kill with a 1/1 token from pyromancer. (Very satisfying way to kill Ghost Dad)