[Primer] Boros Burn

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:17 am

Very nice. He got really greedy landing that 4th creature. I know why he did it but it was still really, really unnecessary when he was up 4 cards.

Flames has been working out very well for me as it saved me twice vs the burn mirror (finally saw it online!)

GoblinWarchief · Postby **GoblinWarchief** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:06 pm

I am a fan of anger of the gods too. I see most people here saying that it is not necessary since we already prey upon aggro decks due to cards like searing blood, helix, young pyromancer. Well , in my experience i'm not so confident in winning against aggro decks with thousands one drops, because if they get good starts they can overwhelm us ... after all we are playing taplands , we have few removals on turn one, and to get an advantage we must get a phoenix/pyromancer online.... otherwise we are just indefinitely 1 for 1ing their creatures with removal spells.
Don't get me wrong, i feel we are favored against swarm aggro, but i faced a lot of nut starts against those decks and anger of the gods saved my butt several times.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:43 pm

I guess it comes down to me not wanting to put in a card for someone's nut draw. I've lost games for sure but not matches vs the swarm decks just because of YP and such. Also, there's zero wrong with 1 for 1'ing all their creatures until you both gas out. Your individual cards are far, far stronger than a weenie deck's in the long run so there's nothing wrong with playing like an Esper deck. Your whole game 2 deck is around 20 cheaper hero's downfall, 6 cheaper elspeth, 7-8 sphinx's revelation, and...I have no great comparison for the phoenixes off the top of my head but they're really good. Oh, and wrapped up in all of that, 10-12 of your cards are divination while doing something else.

I'm not getting where this is ever an intimidating matchup.

zenbitz · Postby **zenbitz** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:45 pm

[strike]I think the issue with anger / no anger is that 1 for 1'ing CMC 1 spells with CMC 2 spells is bad for the old tempo. Most aggro decks this cycle of standard were not running 12-16 1 drops or even the "Optimal Aggro" 10 1 drops. As long as they are casting 2 drops you are fine.

If they play 4 two power 1 drops and you play 2 2 mana burn spells... you are quite a bit behind.[/strike]

EDIT: Nah, I'm an idiot.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:16 pm

It's a shame then that we don't have access to 8

removal spells and at least two [mana]2r[/mana] 1 sided sweepers that can go to the face because that sounds like that would be really good for slowing down someone with a ton of 1 drops until we get our card advantage online.

If only.

gozmit97 · Postby **gozmit97** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:07 pm

MDU During game 2 against Bw devotion you kept in flames of the firebrand. Care to explain why? Also how has the card been doing for you?

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:21 pm

Nightveil spectre and pack rats. It's basically searing blood vs lifebane zombie as well. Flames has always been better than searing blood vs black control. It just had a tendency to be weaker vs other opponents but searing blood just hasn't been getting the advantage it had before.

It's been a substantial upgrade for me at least. I might switch back to searing blood for a bit when Journey comes out in case the 1 drop swarm materializes online and so I can make sweet love to Prophetic Flamespeaker.

TBuzzsaw · Postby **TBuzzsaw** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:53 pm

The reason why I play a single Anger in the side is because the occasional red deck with BTE pops up at events.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:20 pm

I do definitely think that if the BTE/1 drop explosion comes back, cutting back down to 6 scry lands just to make sure chains lands quickly will be a good idea.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:58 pm

MDU During game 2 against Bw devotion you kept in flames of the firebrand. Care to explain why? Also how has the card been doing for you?

Basically what Elricity said

I do have a recent game recorded where I killed 1x Pack Rat, 1x LBZ and deal 1 damage in a single turn (that was fun) and I have experienced the 2-4-1 vs pack rat before (though its rarer nowadays).

Aodh · Postby **Aodh** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:49 am

General practice is to reserve out scrylands for as long as possible, right? What if we have mulliganned down to a borderline 6 or any 5? Do we jam temples as quickly as possible to strengthen our draws?

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:57 am

You generally save your scries for when you need something specific. Early game, you generally can do ok with whatever you draw which is why you don't scry then. If you need removal or land turn 2 for blah reason, scry turn 1.

Aodh · Postby **Aodh** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:47 am

Yeah, I understand that. Does the same paradigm hold on mulligans?

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:01 am

The number of cards you start with shouldn't make a difference. You can have a 5 card hand where drawing about anything is good or a 5 card hand where you desperately need X. The principal stays the same.

Say, for example, if my mull to 5 is YP, triumph, vault, mountain, shock, I'm probably delaying my scry as late as possible because any card I draw is probably fine. If it's helix, phoenix, chain, vault, temple, I'm digging for lands immediately.

@Zen, sorry, was no reason for me to be rude about it.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:37 pm

Want some advice on a burn mirror match I played which I put up here. I'm pretty much a dick in this video which I need to avoid if I do future recordings. Unless you find it entertaining, I guess. These are just for the forum so I'm not concerned about public opinion.

Things I think I noticed. Game 1 I got greedy and tried to save my scry lands and wasted both. I was sequencing tap lands to try to get YP on turn 4 when I should have focused on getting mutavault out turn 2 if he did drop phoenix which he did. The proper order, without even knowing when cards would have come up was [temple, vault, temple, foundry, foundry]. That it would have worked in my favor scrying down two lands would have just been a bonus.

Instead of these draws: [temple, temple, crack, helix, temple, charm, mountain] it would have been [temple, crack, helix,
charm, YP, mountain,

] which would have been a ton better.

Turn 3 mutavault swing leaving him free to swing with phoenix(16-18), turn 4 kill phoenix his turn(10-18 from end of turn charm), turn 5 helix my turn in response to burn, hopefully not charm or I eventually lose, getting his phoenix back (11-14), turn 6 drop 2 YP and hold up charm vs tapped out with a phoenix in play (9-14).

His turn 7, he has phoenix in play, 4 lands, phoenix, 2 skullcrack, and 2 mystery cards in hand. I have skullcrack/boros charm in hand and mana open to cast either. If one of his mystery cards is boros charm, I lose, otherwise I go into turn 7 with end of turn boros charm to the face as using indestructble means I don't have enough damage to finish him (7-10). On my untap, I have skullcrack, 2 YP, 2 tokens 1 vault, 5 other lands, and a mystery card in hand vs his two mystery cards. If my mystery card is not skullcrack, boros
charm, or lightning strike[9 outs], I lose. If it is, his only out is to helix burn a creature during his end step but if he does that, my outs increase to drawing a helix of my own, removing a phoenix.

I would like to point out this took me an hour to slowly math my way through so I'm not sure I had any chance to see this during the game. But still, goes to show that games that look unwinnable may not have been. Is there a better line of play that I missed?

Game 2, I'm not sure I should have throw away the mutavaults but if his hand had not had a searing blood, it would have definitely been the correct play. I would never have likely won game 2 without his multiple misplays and game 3 certainly would have been much closer.

Rhyno · Postby **Rhyno** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:00 pm

Am I supposed to be keeping my Searing Bloods and Shocks in against MBD online? 3 times in a row my opponent has kept their Pack Rats in which I hardly ever see on paper.

zenbitz · Postby **zenbitz** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:16 pm

I guess you could take out skullcrack instead.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:32 pm

Rhyno, the smart MBC players typically don't board them out but I'll answer your questions with questions.

1) Who is the control player and beatdown player in MBC vs burn?
2) If you board out searing blood and shock, what's the likelihood you can not interact with pack rat? If you can't, does this influence your overall objective in the match?

Zen,

1) Who is the control player and beatdown player in MBC vs burn?
2) Is lifegain important to MBC's role in the match?

Rhyno · Postby **Rhyno** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:58 am

Rhyno, the smart MBC players typically don't board them out but I'll answer your questions with questions.

1) Who is the control player and beatdown player in MBC vs burn?
2) If you board out searing blood and shock, what's the likelihood you can not interact with pack rat? If you can't, does this influence your overall objective in the match?

I see your point, I'll adjust my board plans.
On a related note, when people told me the online meta was different I assumed they meant the percentages were slightly off. It's actually way more different than I anticipated. I feel that my mono-black matchup is the only one that dipped a little, along with possibly monsters. I don't have enough results online to be sure though. I did however get
blown out by a Crypt Incursion which wasn't even on my radar.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:40 am

The players online are usually better then the players on paper esp. if you focus only on DE's, PE's and MOCS events.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:07 am

Now mind you, if the cards in your hand are right, you can use their pack rats against them. More than once I've had a decent sized removal hand and I'll intentionally only keep them to 1 rat.

HK1997 · Postby **HK1997** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:36 am

@MDU & Elricity

If you are getting bored waiting for Journey into Nyx, why not grab a couple of burn buddies and make a little DtR video, showcasing some tech deck with all our different flavours that are currently being run? When facing off in the mirror I've noticed, you cant tell wether the opponent is running a LOT of cards or not, until you see them. Ash, FDS, SFD, Anger, YP, Flames, SB, how many shocks?, PE, Toil/Trouble, BO, W/T, Glare, BE, Chandra Pyromaster and I still see a couple of random WildRs being slung around. What I mean to say is that unless you've been reading this thread for months, people are not aware that there is such a large number of cards, that very well and justified could, or could not be in the deck, without being a totally crazy homebrew.
Just thought it might be cool to have some or all of those flavors showcased and argued or debated over and then maybe run a daily together for
entertainment value, besides more prodding and debating over specific choices. Ok... mostly for the entertainment

A big hand of applause to encourage these gentlemen, everyone!

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:50 am

zemanjaski, purp, lazerburn and montu also play and record standard red (at occasion).

hamfactorial, Valdarith, Pedros and BlakLanner also record videos as well

(just not standard red videos).

I'm just taking a break until next update (so I can gain some value from the QP with MOCS6 (no idea what the card is yet.....)) - so I'll need a way to make some money without selling boosters

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:50 pm

My amount of time is rather limited to small chunks unfortunately which is why I'm not actually playing much. Plus, I'm in the US so collaborating with the Aussies could be treason difficult to coordinate time zones. I'd be grinding if I could but I'm not an expert on the metagame since I'm just not on that much.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:28 pm

Speaking of, I had about 20 minutes so I did a video explaining my deck plans in Journey.

Standard Journey to Nyx deck tech

I'll try to record some games with it when I get a chance.

I noticed I muttered something about blind obedience vs black. Ignore me, I think I'm high on caffiene.

Edit: "Mainboard"

zenbitz · Postby **zenbitz** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:00 pm

We are the often* the control deck. They have to play threats or we just burn their face instead. Also assemble the legion is the grindiesty control finisher ever.
We must bring in 1x chains 2x assemble and probably any chandras we have in the board.

We would like skullcrack against Gary - because we can't control them indefinitely (only 4 chains for 4 demons) and their life gain = cards from undeworld connections. [Obviously you leave in some number of skullcracks if they are running whip]. Also they might have staves to which skullcrack becomes 4 (maybe even 5) to the face for 2.

You could also bring in Mortars for shock if they were playing Nightveil. Theoretically you could kill 4 4/4 rats with overload.

I don't like searing blood vs. black as if they go nightveil > lifebane we have exactly 4 targets (or 60 if we let them discard to make more rats).
In the Ashley version shock wasn't very good
but with YP it's pretty solid and lets us "safely" drop YP on turn 3. But usually I have 4 cards to bring in vs black and 2 searing bloods to come out so I gotta cut either shock or skullcrack. Perhaps 1 of each is ideal?

As for pack rats - taking out 4 spells that kill them leaves 9-10 (depending on shocks) plus 8 in an emergency (chains/helix) plus Chandra (although it's hard to imagine chandra being out vs. a 1/1 rat than cannot at least be pumped by mutavault).

* If you are running ashley+firstblade+pheonix I think you could call us the beat down vs. some MBD hands.

Wipe Out · Postby **Wipe Out** » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:09 pm

Just my two cents: I would say we are definitely the beatdown in the MBD matchup. We are trying to get our damage in fast and get under them before they can stabilize. They have stronger individual cards, access to card draw and access to lifegain. In a stalled board state they will probably win or outlast you in Game 1. You are right that Assemble is not a traditional "beatdown" card, however what it does is provide us with something we normally lack in the matchup: inevitability. They have card draw (underworld connections) and they have Pack Rat and if the board stalls they have Gary to help break the stalemate, so in general we must be fast. Chandra helps provide some reach and another threat - a repeatable source of damage they have to deal with or we will get some CA and potentially ultimate her.

It sounds like overall you have a reasonable SB plan. Skullcrack is absolutely critical, I would not ever
cut one out of the MB against monoblack. Much like with UW/x control matchups, they are counting on some lifegain to help them stabilize in the face of your awesome beatdown and you cannot allow it. Chains is a one mana terminate for those pesky demons (and could use it on NVS). Assemble provides an unanswerable threat that also locks down demons. Chandra for reach. Mortars (or flames of the firebrand - bonus, can possibly deal with 2 rats) if we are dealing with Spector. So what are our weak cards? Well, low impact burn. Shocks don't do much for us, very few targets. Granted, they're cheaper than Jets but Jets give us critical fixing of our draws. Searing Blood can sometimes give us a nice situation if we hit a rat early, but it's probably too niche a case to plan on and something like chains or assemble is going to be much stronger. As you mentioned, one exception is that Searing Blood is a bit better if they are solely on the Life-Bane Zombie plan. Overall, the -searing blood, -shocks, +Chandra,
+Assemble, +Chains recipe seems like the usual DtR SB plan for monoblack.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:01 am

Wipeout has it correct.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:22 am

Last Time

SE Report 7029648
G1 Junk vs Old Flame (MDU) SE 7029648
G2 Junk vs Old Flame (MDU) SE 7029648
G3 RDW vs Old Flame (MDU) SE 7029648 - Boros Charm is quite good....

Newbie Magic/gaming related short-animation videos - The first one is about Skinshifter link (let me know if you guys like it)

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@Elricity :

If your only using Prophetic Flamespeaker vs creature decks, why is it better then Boros Reckoner or Mizzium Mortars in a format where the best midrange/aggro decks run Sylvan Caryatid, Boros Reckoner Courser of Kruphix, Frostburn weird, NVS basically anything which isn't weenies which is ALREADY a good MU?

The card is definitely better on the offence but defensively its
rather lack luster in those MUs, if you ask yourself "Who is the control player and beatdown player in creature vs burn?" you can find out which is more important.

- - - - - - - -

I don't think Prophetic Flamespeaker is bad (he is great in RDW) he is just odd in burn.....

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:11 am

[quote:18is4lv1]
@Elricity :

If your only using Prophetic Flamespeaker vs creature decks, why is it better then Boros Reckoner or Mizzium Mortars in a format where the best midrange/aggro decks run Sylvan Caryatid, Boros Reckoner Courser of Kruphix, Frostburn weird, NVS basically anything which isn't weenies which is ALREADY a good MU?

I card is definitely better on the offence but defensively its rather lack luster in those MUs, if you ask yourself "Who is the control player and beatdown player in creature vs burn?" you can find out which is more important.

- - - - - - - -

I don't think Prophetic Flamespeaker is bad (he is great in RDW) he is just odd in burn.....[/quote:18is4lv1]

Good question but here's my reasoning.

First, boros reckoner has been a bad control card this whole season. Its weakness is that if they can evade it, which each creature deck will now have solid ways of doing, its a wasted card as swinging for 3 a turn is something that they can ignore while picking you off or building a superior board presence. There's a reason we aren't running it now. Instead, we run cards like YP, Chandra, and Assemble that initially have very clear control roles against creature decks but then convert into being a win condition.

Alternatively, we could add more terror effects, probably more orings or mortars but my concern is that we start diluting the gameplan so far that you risk running out of answers for threats. We've avoided 8 removal post board with BNG and I don't see Journey making it any safer. I would prefer to go with another card like YP, Chandra, or Assemble that fits along that curve.

Are we disagreeing on whether the card can effectively play defense or whether it can hit players when backed up with burn?

Carytid can blank flamespeaker which is a good point. Maybe that card alone makes it unplayable in burn.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:02 am

I basically don't think he helps in the MUs in which want extra support (like Gxx).

if you check out Z's last burn list he ran 4x MM with 4x Chains - the reason why is because against creature decks were the control list, we're not trying to burn them out we just want to keep the board clear long enough until our evasive creatures or vaults finally take them down.

The diluting theory applies more towards the attrition decks like Bx Devotion.

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:03 am

We're playing Control I can't see the problem in running 8 removal spells at all. MDU has 7, Z ran 8, I've run 8, it's fine

I don't like Flamespeaker in the deck and I saw nothing at all in the video to change my opinion. We are not running Reckoner on defence so we certainly don't want this, I much prefer Mizzium Mortars - better synergy with YP, online T2, kills the threat outright, overload board wipes

In all the video examples MM is just outright better. On offence I'd rather go over the top on T3 with CP and ignore their board state. I don't want to play a card that can "hit players when backed up with Burn" as this forces me to interact with their board and use all my burn as removal so I can swing and EXILE
some cards which hopefully will be more burn and hopefully I'll have the mana to play that turn. It makes no sense to me at all

I am obviously happy to be proved wrong but for now I'm filing this in the "this one time at FNM" pile

PirateKingAtomsk · Postby **PirateKingAtomsk** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:09 pm

Chandra is better for card advantage then flamespeaker and far more synergetic with the deck.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:55 pm

Chandra is better for card advantage then flamespeaker and far more synergetic with the deck.

Running that too hence why I mentioned fitting it into the curve with. You don't want four of her any more than you want Boros Reckoner.

MDU/Lazer, you thinking 4/2/2 on the removal split then? I'm certain I don't want more than 2 banish against any control deck and mortars is just better removal anywhere else once you have 6 exiles to deal with the few creatures out of its range.

I'll keep testing it but it does seem like each season I try one thing in the "too cute" category so you're probably right. I've yet to lose a game where I've played it but I can see the win more reasoning. I'll grind some games against some Gx
pilots that I know and keep notes. If anyone else is up for testing, give me a shout.

Crims0n · Postby **Crims0n** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:37 pm

What is everyones thoughts on flames of the firebrand? is it better than searing blood right now? I havent been able to test much but Ive seen a few of you guys have been running it.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:06 pm

It's good, but I don't think it is better than searing blood. Especially once a bunch of aggro decks make headway post-JOU

Aodh · Postby **Aodh** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:52 pm

That depends on what kind of aggro decks you expect to face... A 2-for-1, 2-for-1 plus 1 dmg to the dome, or 3-for-1 is DEFINITELY better than a 1-for-1 plus 3 dmg to the dome. If you don't expect X/1s, then yeah Searing Blood is king. But if any of the other situations are likely to arise, then FotF is almost strictly better, IMO. Plus, FotF can dome Esper players, kill Nightveil Specters pre-combat, or take out Elspeth tokens if you need to attack. It also can take out a Courser of Kruphix that blocks YP$ tokens. They both have their place and different versatilities...

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:22 pm

Flames is better against BTE decks and searing blood is better against Ash Zealot decks.

Flames is better than searing blood against control, including MBC.

Against everything else, it's a bit of a wash.

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:04 pm

MDU/Lazer, you thinking 4/2/2 on the removal split then? I'm certain I don't want more than 2 banish against any control deck and mortars is just better removal anywhere else once you have 6 exiles to deal with the few creatures out of its range.

That's exactly where I'm at currently

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:12 pm

Flames is better than searing blood against control, including MBC.

I think this is a pretty bold. G1 searing blood is better vs control as you have elspeth tokens as targets. Vs mono black, assuming they are on the NVS plan, maybe it's better. But with so many ways to build with 2 drops, Blood is equally good. Searing Blood a lifebane zombie is better than pinging it for one and play for 2. not to mention mutavault, and both are a wash vs packrat, once they are past two packrats/mutavault neither really matters.

Dies to Removal

[Primer] Boros Burn

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