[Primer] Boros Burn

[rage_jl]

I think they say that because they have a harder time grinding it out against us with a dozen good cards which do not have any synergy with one another outside of devotion. They need threats hitting the table turn 4 through 6 or 7 and us having less answers than that which doesn't always happen. Or we simply win turn 5 or 6 ignoring their threats, which occurs often enough for them to consider it a bad match up.

A lot of decks claim we are their worst match up and I believe that is because this deck isn't simply dumping creatures or mana accelerating to dump creatures and planeswalkers or waiting to rev. Dredge claims we are a bad match up, but from reading this board it seems players are having a harder time with dredge (excepting Z of course) than dredge thinks.

If someone lost to something once they start claiming it is a bad match up because they believe they are infallible.

[Midnight_v]

I think dredge is just new, and not having experience against it and playing a deck (such as burn) which requires a lot of the "Right call" moments it create a false difficulty.
Once adjusted too its no better vs burn than any other deck that isn't specifically hating you out with all their might.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I checked and I'm 76% with burn, which is pretty damn good for me. I was only 64% with the big boros deck I monied with at Shizuoka.

[magicdownunder]

BW Control is a bad MU theoretically, I actually don't understand how I or Z have a good win rate against them (I'm going too blame it on horrible BW pilots).

BW runs more discards and better Lifegain sources then Bx therefore it SHOULD be a very bad MU.... same is said about Junk (except Junk tends to kill itself).

[Pedros]

Imo biggest problem is Obzedat. I dont have any problems vs baron versions, however obzedats one are pain in the ass...

Junk is horrible matchup, almost unwinnable. But manabase kills this deck (or choosing to run all coursers, obzedats, downfalls lifebane zombies... Manabase cant support that color requairement, even with caryatid)

[zenbitz]

I think BW is harder than MBC is harder than Esper. Esper isn't a gimme either, especially if you walk your mutavaults into last breath (derp).

All the green based decks seems to play very similarly vs. Burn. They are all midranged, so either we are within closing range and top deck burn spells, or we die to the fatty we can't chain (or our chained gets golgari charmed). Obzedat (in Junk) has life gain and is nearly impossible to kill which is super bad but it can't block. RGx has stormbreath which is nasty and harder to chump. BGx has duress/thoughtseize/whip. RB has rakdos' return.

I guess fated conflagration kills him, assuming he doesn't attack into your 1/1s

[zenbitz]

Mono blue is hard to play against UWx control.

[LP, of the Fires]

BW mid vs. Burn: I personally would play BW if I had to enter a tourney where I expected to play lots of burn because you can easily tweak the deck to beat it. When me and Vidi where talking, we basically came to the conclusion that while BW does have to draw certain cards, the matchup should be in the BW players favor. Not by a whole lot, but still favorable.

If instead the BW player is playing a stock list with 4 Blood Baron main and zero obzedats and boards poorly, they'll likely just get ranched.

[RedNihilist]

Just for the sake of asking: leaving Obzedaddy aside, how should BW be boarding against this deck?

[Self Medicated]

If instead the BW player is playing a stock list with 4 Blood Baron main and zero obzedats and boards poorly, they'll likely just get ranched.

Don't you mean, "ranched on"?

[LP, of the Fires]

Just for the sake of asking: leaving Obzedaddy aside, how should BW be boarding against this deck?

Depends on the list, but basically, elspeth, pack rat and lifebane zombie are all bad, Hero's downfall is mostly bad, and whatever 3 mana card draw spell they play is terrible, but they need to keep in 1/2 copies as a way of getting ahead. They should bring in all cheap removal, duress and whatever supplementary lifegaining 5 drop they choose to play+whip.

Postboard, my BW deck vs. red looks something like this:

3 Obzedat
3 Blood Baron
4 Desecration Demon
2 Sin Collector
3 Brimaz

2 Underworld Connections
1 Whip of Erebos

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize

Mountain of removal.

[LP, of the Fires]

If they play 26 land, they should probably board one land out, probably a mutavault.

[Self Medicated]

LP, I'd be interested in seeing your BW list. PM me if you don't want it public.

[LP, of the Fires]

It's a work in progress so I'm not comfortable sharing it yet, mostly because I don't want people to lose to my sketchy ideas

I just know you should start with 3 brimaz, and 3 Obzedats mainboard.

[JohnnyfnB]

LP, I'd be interested in seeing your BW list. PM me if you don't want it public.

Just go to Starcitygames.com and look at the last tournament. Just adjust to your expected meta.

[DXI-Edge]

So I'm going into a GPT expecting Mono-Black, Esper, and Aggro. I'm expecting few, if any, monsters players and like 0 Mono-Blue players.

I'm testing the following list to good results, but I honestly have no idea what to be building right now. I dont even know what deck I'm playing. If it werent for the fact I have a 30% win rate vs Esper I would just play Mono-Blue, but I cant beat Esper. I just cant do it.

Anyway, current burn list, Zem especially I need to talk to you (should go on Sally if you know what I mean)

[deck]
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix

3 Chained to the Rocks
3 Shock
2 Toil//Trouble
2 Searing Blood
4 Skullcrack
4 Magma Jet
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Warleader's Helix

2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
9 mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry

Sideboard
1 Mutavault
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Toil // Trouble
2 Spark
Trooper
1 Chandra Pyromaster
4 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Assemble the Legion
[/deck]

I dont know why, it jsut felt like when I was running the Pyromancer/Searing Blood/Chained to the Rocks version (so old burn list replacing Zealot with Pyromancer) I was doing shittier. So I went back to Zealot. But then I needed to cut down on dead cards vs. Control. So I'm trying a couple Trouble's for mise.

Honestly dont know what else to do at this point lol

[zemanjaski]

Get at me on Skype.

[Captain Murphy]

Discussion will be for format legal cards only. Also stop discussing obviously bad cards. Don't make me list them.

YOU THINK YOU WIELD SOME POWER WITH RED TEXT? THERE ARE NO RULES HERE AND NOBODY TO BE INFRACTED. WHAT WILL HAPPEN? YOU CANNOT BE BANNED OR SUSPENDED. ALL THE FORMAT LEGAL CARDS WILL BE THROWN OUT THE WINDOW

[DXI-Edge]

Get at me on Skype.

Did you not get my add request?

I'll call you tomorrow

[magicdownunder]

Playing old school Zurm (Ash, VFB, Drinkers, etc.... etc...).

SE Report 6902923
G1 Rw Devotion vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 6902923
G2 Bx Devotion vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 6902923
G3 Dredge vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 6902923

[magicdownunder]

Can somehow help me justify running 1x Wild Ricochet? The card is just so adorably evil in the mirror that I want it - except I can't see it coming in against any other MU . . . .

I first I was going to say Monster, but you can't redirect RR - then I was going to say control, but your can't redirect Rev so that leave us with redirecting removal (which isn't what we want too do, 4 life and 4 mana for double discard isn't very cost effective either) I'm I missing something? or should I toss the card in the jank pile where it belongs.

[JohnnyfnB]

Any Sphinx deck. If you don't have a Skullcrack in hand, you might as well draw cards for more gas.

[Jonnymagic]

I play it vs control as a counterspell to a counterspell. The best use of it is when they sphinxes, you crack, they counter, and you wild ricochet to counter both the rev and counter. You need 6 mana for that, but in the control MU that's a pretty common place to be. It's not the most consistent card -- but man you feel like a boss casting it haha. Doing it to helix in the mirror is pretty much GG also, but again that's narrower.

[magicdownunder]

I play it vs control as a counterspell to a counterspell. The best use of it is when they sphinxes, you crack, they counter, and you wild ricochet to counter both the rev and counter. You need 6 mana for that, but in the control MU that's a pretty common place to be. It's not the most consistent card -- but man you feel like a boss casting it haha. Doing it to helix in the mirror is pretty much GG also, but again that's narrower.

Sold

I'm just waiting for that one time during FNM errr..... DE when I hit a PE

[HK1997]

I play it vs control as a counterspell to a counterspell. The best use of it is when they sphinxes, you crack, they counter, and you wild ricochet to counter both the rev and counter. You need 6 mana for that, but in the control MU that's a pretty common place to be. It's not the most consistent card -- but man you feel like a boss casting it haha. Doing it to helix in the mirror is pretty much GG also, but again that's narrower.

Who plays a Helix into 2 open mana, let alone 4, in the mirror?

[magicdownunder]

EoT - baiting the waters, your opp. won't always have the Skull in hand even if they threaten it.

+ Hitting Boros Charm, Peak Eruption or even Lightning Strike is rather brutal in the mirror.

[zemanjaski]

It is so much worse than Peak Eruption, fuck.

[HK1997]

EoT - baiting the waters, your opp. won't always have the Skull in hand even if they threaten it.

+ Hitting Boros Charm, Peak Eruption or even Lightning Strike is rather brutal in the mirror.

I still am not convinced. The scenarios you describe are too narrow inmo.
1) I dont see many pilots hitting their Helix on my EOT into open mana. Lets say they do. Thats a win on a rare occasion.
2) BC, PE and LS being redirected. I'm seeing this from the opponents point of view. You still have cards in hand, 4 open mana. So I calculate accordingly with those cards being burn for 3-4 dmg at around 2 mana cost, maybe a Helix or skullcrack. If I make a move, then I'm counting on a counter burn or skullcrack which would in the end net the same or
even worse result, if one of those cards is WR. BC getting countered is like just another 4 mana WLH as an answer. LS and PE is 3 dmg for 4 mana. This does not really impact the board or life total state, when compared to playing without WR.
3) One scenario I can see WR being good in, is when you have 6-8 mana. But I rarely get that far in the mirror anyways. But WLH, Skullcrack answer, WR to redirect for an additional 3 and save lifegain seems ok but way too expensive.

That being said, I dont see WR making a bigger impact than an additional shock or Searing Blood, also considering that those cards arent dead in other matchups.

[magicdownunder]

It is so much worse than Peak Eruption, fuck.

This is true however you need to dedicate 3-4 spaces for the PE so that you can cast them on T3-4.

Wild Ricochet while horrible and Janky (its not a good card) can act like a standalone card for those really narrow situations (like those horrible janky Fated Conflagration or crappy W/R or glares burn decks sometimes run).

I still am not convinced. The scenarios you describe are too narrow inmo.
1) I dont see many pilots hitting their Helix on my EOT into open mana. Lets say
they do. Thats a win on a rare occasion.
2) BC, PE and LS being redirected. I'm seeing this from the opponents point of view. You still have cards in hand, 4 open mana. So I calculate accordingly with those cards being burn for 3-4 dmg at around 2 mana cost, maybe a Helix or skullcrack. If I make a move, then I'm counting on a counter burn or skullcrack which would in the end net the same or even worse result, if one of those cards is WR. BC getting countered is like just another 4 mana WLH as an answer. LS and PE is 3 dmg for 4 mana. This does not really impact the board or life total state, when compared to playing without WR.
3) One scenario I can see WR being good in, is when you have 6-8 mana. But I rarely get that far in the mirror anyways. But WLH, Skullcrack answer, WR to redirect for an additional 3 and save lifegain seems ok but way too expensive.

That being said, I dont see WR making a bigger impact than an additional shock or Searing Blood, also considering that those cards arent dead in
other matchups.

I think we have been playing a very different mirror MU....

1) Hitting anything in the mirror is a win.
2) WR redirects and clones, so hitting those card would only only gain you life from the damage your would have taking but also dealt 6-8 extra damage

- - - - - -

Please note I never said WR was great card, I'll NEVER run it MD - I just happen to have one extra space in my SB which I wanted too play around with.

[HK1997]

That being said, I dont see WR making a bigger impact than an additional shock or Searing Blood, also considering that those cards arent dead in other matchups.

I think we have been playing a very different mirror MU....

1) Hitting anything in the mirror is a win.
2) WR redirects and clones, so hitting those card would only only gain you life from the damage your would have taking but also dealt 6-8 extra damage

- - - - - -

Please note I never said WR was great card, I'll NEVER run it MD - I just happen to have one extra space in my SB which I wanted too play around with.

Point taken! I shouldnt judge since I've been wanting to play Mogis as a 1-of for some time but havent had the balls to do it yet Just for fun obv.

[BlakLanner]

While I swear that today's Cardboard Crack was made just for me (playing UWr tomorrow on a bet/dare), I think this is where I would be otherwise:

[deck]
7 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Boros Guildgate
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
3 Mutavault

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
3 Chained to the Rocks

Sideboard
3 Toil // Trouble
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Blind Obedience
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Satyr Firedancer
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Assemble the Legion[/deck]

My meta is very weird with a few control players, a couple mono black, and a good deal of random aggro (white weenie, B/W aggro, mono green, GU Monsters, etc).

[Valdarith]

It is so much worse than Peak Eruption, fuck.

I was actually going to say the same thing. I'd much rather have another copy of Peak Eruption than Wild Ricochet.

[dauntless268]

MDU, IMO WR is great in the mirror, even if you "only" redirect and copy Boros Charm. It kind of acts as a 5th WLH in terms of the lifeswing. Problem is that when people run PE, can you be guaranteed to reach 4 mana?

[Elricity]

If we want situational card draw or counterspells vs esper, we should be playing Izzet. If we want to reliably get to 6 lands, we should be playing Izzet.

We are not currently playing Izzet.

And that's my thought experiment for the day.

[Jonnymagic]

WR is not a good card. It is a fun card that people don't expect. As of 1 of, I've never been sad drawing it. I'll play it in 8 mans all day, but if I'm in a tourney or something that matters I'll use something more consistent. I still love the card though =D. MDU both agree the card is jenky -- but cmon -- redirecting a boros charm or helix is something that makes you remember why you play magic >=D

[Elricity]

Oh, I agree it's a fun Jonny card. I just learned I have a lot more fun with consistancy than indulging my Jonny tendancies. Oracle of bones got that out of my system for this season

[Jonnymagic]

I mean, I am a Jonny. So. There's that. LOL.

[Pedros]

ACHIVEMENT UNCLOCKED

Searing Blood oposite Firedrinker Satyr with Young Pyromancer on board and 2 Chandra Phoenix in graveyard.

[LP, of the Fires]

MAXIMUM!

[Aodh]

That value life. RR: Destroy target creature, deal 5 damage to its controller, draw 2 cards, make a 1/1. Lol.