[Primer] Boros Burn

[Pedros]

Managed to 4-0 a daily with recent build (toil troubles in sb, 6 total temples, 2 guildgates, 3 muta with 3rd muta in sb along with 2 assembles and 2-1 split of mortars / spark trooper.

Beat BG Dredge, Esper Control (this matchup is so intense, I think he missplayed hard on his own upkeep, but that is only me), Jund Monsters and RG Agro.

Vs RG Agro, BG Dredge and Jund Monsters YP and his tokens are soo freaking good. Vs Esper 1 tokens from YP did like 2 or 3 damage ase he didnt do anything with it. I think it makes this card too awsome not to play.

Only 1 game I had problem with lack of mountains and red, where I had 2 temples (WR and WB) and mutavault.

I also played like 6 other 8 mans, where I mostly did 1-1, loosing to all mono black opponents, mono green and BG midrange deck. I think I sb wrong vs mono black (I consulted Z after playing all of those and I sb poorly. What he is saying makes total sense),
however games I lost mostly were very close plus I didnt see a single assemble those games. Anytime Assemble would win me a game within 2-3 turns. I also left my opponent on 2 life with magma jet and didnt find any burn in top 3 cards to finish him off (notice the fact 2 of those games he had 2 staff of death magus and devour fleshed his demon for 7).

As for mono G stompy that deck is really fast and all creatures are big. Dunno if that was just bad luck and his deck was blessed those 2 games (as he had played total of 4 aspect of the hydra and ranger's guile), however YP tokens arent awsome when he has nylea.

BG Midrange is deck close to the Junk Reid Duke was playing in invi, but without white. Curve of Scavenging ooze, Specter, Courser, Demon, Reaper, Gray Merchant. With all green and black removals those color is blessed and card advantage of courser and underworld connections and specter. He said mana is working fine as he is playing all dual in the world to make it work, but when I asked it is
much more stable than 3 color mana from jund monsters or Reid Duke junk. I felt really miserable when playing against him.

[Elricity]

if we can cast it

Nope.

[Jediace42]

Yea I know... wishful thinking, but its worth thinking about at least

[Elricity]

8 sources is the minimum splash for a required source of mana and that is pushing it. We're only toying with splashing black for toil because it's not actually required to have black to play the card.

Also, destructive revelry is not significantly more powerful than the white options to justify screwing with the mana base.

[Pedros]

messing around with a manabase like this. The extra scrylands is cool and putting pressure on your opponent to put you on certain cards is always fun lol. still a work in progress though.

4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
8 Mountain
2 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Enlightenment

if we are able to splash into green, even off a couple scrys only makes me want to consider destructive revelry as a sb option. 2 damage instant kill your d sphere seems pretty good for us, if we can cast it

Nope you cant play sb card with 2 lands that make that mana. We play black mana to make Toil // Trouble BETTER, not to enable it. It is fine on its own.

[Pedros]

As for Toil // Trouble I tricked my Esper opponent with a jace. He had 3 lands to split, and 5 cards in hand, so I knew he would just discard 1 of them. So I gave him all 3, and then Toiled him for full 7.

Toil is quite good also vs sphinx's revelation if u trick them to react on your turn. Like cast leathal spell on your turn, they revelate for bilion, you toil them for exact bilion.

Right now my Toil // Trouble was cast for 7 and 6 vs same Esper opponent.

[mutantcrock]

Thanks for the responses. I was thinking of it kind of as a replacement to CttR that has synergy with YP. But like you both pointed out, if you don't see it early it is much worse.

[zemanjaski]

Won Round 1 of the DE, game 3 mull to 5 against Junk >:)

Chandra is OP.

[magicdownunder]

@Pedros: What happen too your junk deck?

[Elricity]

I'm only going into this diatribe because knowing tempo with burn is so important and I'm bored and don't mind spelling it out. Apologies to everyone if it's too far a sidetrack.

The reason that silence is a weaker spell than chain is that with the latter, you already know they've spent their mana and you have now forced them to spend it next turn and use another card. With silence, while you are making them spend the mana next turn, you haven't actually guaranteed they can't spend the mana on something else.

Also, like Z said with the topdeck, you can't tempo them later if you draw it late.

The spell is better to compare with a counterspell because they both suck as topdecks. A counterspell lets you decide to tempo after your opponent has already chosen to invest the mana and it lets you know what they want to cast the turn after if the can. Silence gives you zero information and potentially no advantage.

nSilence is very easily stronger than all of the above if someone planning to vomit their hand however. For example, if someone is going to lay down 3 BTE's into Nykthos, you've tempoed about...10 mana? While chaining only tempoed maybe 4-6.

Z has a list of articles in the strategy forum that goes over the policy of "he who spends more mana, wins".

And that's how burn wins or loses in a nutshell and why young pyromancer is so powerful.

[PrimalBurn]

Just won an epic match against hexproof If I wasn't a YP believer I sure as hell am now. Apparently timely skullcracks and infinite chump blockers gets you there

[zemanjaski]

The best analogy is that Young Pyromancer, in this deck, is a 2 mana Master of Waves. That's stupid.

[Pedros]

@Pedros: What happen too your junk deck?

It loses horibly to Esper and Mono Black.

[Elricity]

The best analogy is that Young Pyromancer, in this deck, is a 2 mana Master of Waves. That's stupid.

/me is still irrationally taking credit for Z switching back to YP.

[imopen2]

Now this is from someone who has played only like 20 matches with the deck, but since most people h e cut ash zealot, I figure this is a solid manabase that meets basically all the needs I've heard:

3x Mutavault
8x Mountain
4x Temple of triumph
1x Temple of silence
1x Temple of malice
2x Guildgate
4x Sacred foundry

You have 19 red sources, 11 white, 6 scry, and only 8 cipt lands. Throw the 4th muta in the side (or the main and run 24 land). The only question in my mind was whether 12 mountains is enough for chained. Seems like it is..

[Pedros]

@Pedros: What happen too your junk deck?

It loses horibly to Esper and Mono Black.

If sth I would try to build this sweet Green Black Midrange. Less shocklands and taplands, doesnt loose too many cards and have same engine.

[zemanjaski]

@ IO2: That's what I have been running this morning, I am liking it a lot. Not a lot of data yet. There's probably an argument for the Temple of Silence to be a 3rd Guildgate, so that you're always making RR on time, but I think that it is acceptable to be slightly greedy.

[Elricity]

Now this is from someone who has played only like 20 matches with the deck, but since most people h e cut ash zealot, I figure this is a solid manabase that meets basically all the needs I've heard:

3x Mutavault
8x Mountain
4x Temple of triumph
1x Temple of silence
1x Temple of malice
2x Guildgate
4x Sacred foundry

You have 19 red sources, 11 white, 6 scry, and only 8 cipt lands. Throw the 4th muta in the side (or the main and run 24 land). The only question in my mind was whether 12 mountains is enough for chained. Seems like it is..

13 had never been an issue. That does seem to be the best setup.

Z, you cut zealots so you probably never need to RR on time. Searing blood doesn't count. Your chance of phoenix on curve goes from 87.7%
to 85.3%. Big whoop.

[zemanjaski]

I didn't realise it was that marginal.

Greed is good

[zemanjaski]

And we're on 2-0 in the DE. Casually destroying Mono U.

[zemanjaski]

Turn 2 Young Pyromancer into removal all day baby.

[Elricity]

I didn't realise it was that marginal.

Greed is good

Yup. That was on the play no less.

[amcfvieira]

Sp to recap, I want from every pilot a brief discussion on these topics asap:

- 4th mutavault vs 1st Temple of Silence
- 3rd assemble the legion vs 4th mutavault (sideboard)
- wear // tear vs glare of heresy (sideboard)
- viashino firstblade vs toil // trouble; value across the meta to justify sideboard inclusion (sideboard)

Arrigato !

After about 5 hour testing the last list my thoughts are:
1 - Colour screw a couple of times with Mutavaults, I think usually I only want to see one in all game or have to trade one for value. My choice is Colour mana
2 - 3rd assemble
seems to much, but 4th Mutavault in sideboard isn't like I love to play I prefer put the extra land in Main board. But now feel comfortable with 23 (3 mutavault), so maybe a blank in my sideboard for another card.
3 - I was Crushed today twice by Paladin after remove all my Chained to the Rocks (maybe wrong), I like Glare but Wear // tear have done the job to. It will be more a meta call.
4 - Not really sell to Toil // Trouble. I really only like it on the play, I see it be a card that don't lose value in late game, and can give a digger for 4 cards to find the card we need. Sometimes I feel that the lack of creatures make me with a week board presence that can be outdated with a couple of cards from our opponent. If I don't see Blind Obedience for a wile I will play creatures in this spot. I really like my Japanese Viashinos
Thinking in run in this spot 4 Rackos Cackler (3 + the spot of 3rd
assemble/Mutavault).

Just my 2 cents.

[Aodh]

I think we need 11 white sources in this deck.

[zemanjaski]

On to 3-0 in the DE, beating BW Control 2-0. Assemble the Legion is "cheap bullshit" apparently.

[Aodh]

Do we choose to draw in the mirror? I think it is worth considering, though it does open us up to getting helixed after we Phoenix.

[rcwraspy]

A 5 drop is cheap bullshit when they have access to hand disruption? mkay. They just need to learn to play better. If they see mountain T1 they're perfectly free to hold their Thoughtseize until T4.

[zemanjaski]

Just lost round 1 of an 8-man due to not hitting white...SO FRUSTRATING.

3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

??

[Aodh]

You just won 3+ rounds in a row; don't be results oriented. I do think we want 11-13 white sources though, yes.

[DefeateR]

Just lost round 1 of an 8-man due to not hitting white...SO FRUSTRATING.

3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

??

Just had the same thing. With a hand of 2 Boros Charm, 3 Warleader's Helix, and a Chained to the Rocks. Not indicating it was anything more than variance, but still felt bad.

[magicdownunder]

Being **** by colors had happen too me in many occasions, I recommend 11-12 white sources.

[zemanjaski]

4-0 in the DE.

I think I like 3 Guildgates for 12 white sources; all I ever want is to cast my spells anyway.

[zemanjaski]

Opponent was Mono White aggro, no kidding. Young Pyromancer powah.

[MisterMet]

A bit late here but I just got a chance to try out the updated list (with a few differences in the sideboard - no Peak Eruptions or Toil//Trouble) and went 3-0 in an 8-man, sweeping my matches against Black Devotion, Black Devotion and Esper Control.

The extra scrylands and change in strategy (holding onto spells until I draw Young Pyromancer, which worked great against Black Devotion) both helped.

Sp to recap, I want from every pilot a brief discussion on these topics asap:
- 4th mutavault vs 1st Temple of Silence

Temple of Silence because I want the extra scryland and white source.

- 3rd assemble the legion vs 4th mutavault (sideboard)

If I had room I would go with the third assemble because of how
hard it is to lose once that's cast against mono-black.

- wear // tear vs glare of heresy (sideboard)

I've been siding in Mortars and not Glare against esper lately because of Blood Barron so I would go with Wear//Tear. Plus that is better against decks that use Whip or Erebos or Bow of Nylea.

- viashino firstblade vs toil // trouble; value across the meta to justify sideboard inclusion (sideboard)

I would stay with Toil//Trouble because after the recent GP results I think U/W and Esper control will still have Blind Obedience in the sideboard.

[zemanjaski]

Current 75 (OK, I had Temple of Malice in the DE over the 3rd Guildgate but whatevs):

[deck=Zemanjaski's Boros Burn on 2-April-14]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Enchantments
3 Chained to the Rocks

Lands
3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
3 Peak Eruption
3 Viashino Firstblade
1 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

[LP, of the Fires]

I think I prefer 2 assemble the legion. I don't ever want to have it in my opener or see it on an early scry. I just want to draw it semi-naturally.

for wear//tear/glare/revoke slot, I HAVE NO IDEA! If I could, i'd prefer 1 tear and 1 glare each.

I prefer viashino, but I think Blind Obediance is too much of a card.

I'm probably gonna play 1 burning earth because every time I've cast it, it's won the game. Yes, espers a good matchup, but I haven't tested it as much as I would like, so I like the cushion of the free win.

[zemanjaski]

MJ "Burn is an insanely good matchup [for MBC]. You have thoughtseizes and duresses and Gray Merchants and they can't beat any of those cards"

Goes 0-2 drop in DE against Burn.

MJ "I have determined that no one likes playing Burn. The people that play Burn don't have a choice"

Chat comment "Except for that guy from CFB"

[Toddington]

Hypothetically, I could see running this sideboard if BO weren't a consideration:

[deck]
3 Assemble the Legion
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Peak Eruption
3 Viashino Firstblade
1 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

Regardless of whether BO is a card, don't you only have like 5 cards for UWx here? Won't it be better to have cards like Mutavault and Hammer of Purphoros, which are good in both UWx and MBC? I'm really struggling to figure out the board plans here.

[Aodh]

Who here is attending GP Phoenix? LP, me too. I'm probably locked in on 1 Burning Earth, 2 Assemble, 1 Mutavault in my sideboard. The rest is flex ATM while I try to scope the meta out.

[Jediace42]

Im definitely gonna be there... Should be interesting