[Primer] Boros Burn

[GoblinWarchief]

Well, maybe i just had bad luck , but i had serious problems when he flooded he board early (like three one drops in the first two turns). I was forced to use my cheap removal spells on them, including chained to the rocks, then i had no answer to desecration demon. Just variance i guess , because i understand we have all the tools to fight aggro (searing blood , lifegain, recurring threats to outclass them) and i'm sure young pyromancer will improve the matchup. I just think that if i see a lot of swarm decks i'll slam a couple anger of the gods in side to have free wins.

I'm glad you love the new manabase so much zem .... But i'm not glad I'll have to acquire other scrylands

[Pendulum]

Well, maybe i just had bad luck , but i had serious problems when he flooded he board early (like three one drops in the first two turns). I was forced to use my cheap removal spells on them, including chained to the rocks, then i had no answer to desecration demon. Just variance i guess , because i understand we have all the tools to fight aggro (searing blood , lifegain, recurring threats to outclass them) and i'm sure young pyromancer will improve the matchup. I just think that if i see a lot of swarm decks i'll slam a couple anger of the gods in side to have free wins.

I'm glad you love the new manabase so much zem .... But i'm not glad I'll have to acquire other scrylands

Man, what the fuck one-drops had you so freaked out that you had to spend your whole hand on taking them out?

[JohnnyfnB]

B Aggro should be a cake walk, I played against Todd Anderson today running a B Aggro list - he was on play casting his creature being all Todd like, I proceed to cast Searing blood twice... he proceeds to snap concede....

That blows my mind about most "pros", how they just concede a game. Granted, when you have a deck of weenies facing a deck of all instant removal, I can see that, but on the videos they give up too easy.

Top deck sex does happen in Magic.

@Zem Did further testing of Toil/Trouble against the mirror prove beneficial? No one in my shop has yet to play burn, so it's hard for me to test the mirror. I really need to start doing MTGO. From personal experience Toil/Trouble is great against most decks, except
aggro decks that dump their hands early. It could suck against the mirror, but with only 3 mana to spend you still catch them with cards in hand, especially when your on the play.

[amcfvieira]

Losing to mirror, bahh - play terrible! 2-1 still running for some packs! Losing game 2 with my bad sequence of lands. I chose terrible!

[Nishoba27]

Z, firstly I wanted to say thanks for putting so much time into the deck. I resumed playing (on an ad-hoc basis) after a ~3 year absence and have had some ok results (went 5-2 at a PTQ and 4-2 at a GP Trial).

Two observations. I like 3 Assemble in the sideboard, particularly with the expected rise of the Black Staff. I find that Mono Black will often duress way copy #1, so having two copies to find in the remaining ~50 cards is a big advantage. I don't rate the utility of a single copy of Wear/Tear vs. the game-changing third Assemble.

The mirror. Chandra's Phoenix puts in a ton of work here, do you always cut it?

Thanks again.

[amcfvieira]

2-2 losing to Rw devotion, in a crazy game.

[montu]

Top deck sex does happen in Magic.

I conceded against Bx Devo . . . he hit me to 8 life with a Demon and then played another. I had nothing so said screw it. Next two top decks were Chained.

[zemanjaski]

Lost a heart breaking BO3 where I mulliganed to 5 or 6 every game and my opponent had double master of waves, quad, then triple. Must be real nice.

[DixieFlatline]

Any argument for dropping one Mutavault and adding another copy of Temple of Malice? With the mana base just a bit tighter after sideboarding, one extra black source could be a potential game changer. Ofc, this deck loves scry and I love it too. Fixing draws imba.

Sad to see AZ go but trading aggression for consistency is usually a favorable trade. I guess that necromancer with have to dodge someone else's mace now...

[DXI-Edge]

Why would we go to 2 Mutavaults?

I like the 8 temples + 3 Mutavaults. Very awesome

[zemanjaski]

Any argument for dropping one Mutavault and adding another copy of Temple of Malice? With the mana base just a bit tighter after sideboarding, one extra black source could be a potential game changer. Ofc, this deck loves scry and I love it too. Fixing draws imba.

Sad to see AZ go but trading aggression for consistency is usually a favorable trade. I guess that necromancer with have to dodge someone else's mace now...

So this:

[deck]
1 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
[/deck]

Doesn't look as pretty as all the 1-ofs

Still, 19 red sources is much better than
18, so I think there is a reasonable argument for it; its a more conservative option than the 4th Mutavault, but we certainly agree that casting spells > manland; and there is some value beyond scry 1 thanks for the black mana being useful post board.

I'll make the switch and report back tomorrow night.

[Valdarith]

I am pleased to see that you finally brought in the fourth Mutavault in the maindeck. That makes me very happy.

I may have to sideline my Jund Monsters deck in paper for this.

[zemanjaski]

Actually I doubt that Temple of Malice is better than the second Boros Guildgate, if we're making an argument for consistency.

[DixieFlatline]

So this:

[deck]
1 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
[/deck]

Doesn't look as pretty as all the 1-ofs

Still, 19 red sources is much better than 18, so I think there is a reasonable argument for it; its a more conservative option than the 4th Mutavault, but we certainly agree that casting spells > manland; and there is some value beyond scry 1 thanks for the black mana being useful post board.

I'll make the switch and report back tomorrow night.

Cheers. I'll be sleeving this up as well for an LGS tournament tonight (very competitive LGS, several regular pro
tour players) and test it out with the rest of the luddites using paper. I've been running into a lot of mirrors there as well so I'm quite interested to try out PE for the first time.

[DixieFlatline]

Actually I doubt that Temple of Malice is better than the second Boros Guildgate, if we're making an argument for consistency.

11 white sources is better than 10 white sources and an extra scry? I remember feeling a lot more comfortable with the addition of the 11th white source in the previous iteration of this deck in the third Boros Guildgate so this may indeed be a bit better. May still be worth testing to figure out if the one extra white source is better than scry and more access to black mana post board.

[zemanjaski]

Definitely! I would argue (without testing either variation) that the white spells are so fundamental to the deck, in every matchup (we run 11 in the maindeck, sometimes going up to 13), whereas fusing Toil // Trouble is more of an after thought in games that go very long ~ it would be nice to have the 3rd black source so that we will often see it in those long games; but at the same time, I would rather see that white source in the other 95% of matches.

Also, this just looks better visually!

[deck]
2 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
[/deck]

That's a really solid mana base. Slightly more on the conservative side, but still a lot of value in it.

[zemanjaski]

FWIW, in my sideboard, Peak Eruption and Toil // Trouble are just getting tested, they're not set in stone.

I havent seen a Blind Obedience out of a control deck in the last few days ~ have they abandoned that deck?

CAN I BRING BACK MY FIRSTBLADES?

[zemanjaski]

Hypothetically, I could see running this sideboard if BO weren't a consideration:

[deck]
3 Assemble the Legion
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Peak Eruption
3 Viashino Firstblade
1 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

[Toddington]

CAN I BRING BACK MY FIRSTBLADES?

-->

[zemanjaski]

Seriously, I have signed foils, I need to play them or I will feel bad for SzULeR.

[Shadowlink]

Assuming no one at my LGS plays BO, but the decks are pretty varied other than that, do you think that's what my sideboard should look like? There's at least one other burn deck, possibly two, as well as Naya agro and R/G monsters players, so the peak eruptions will do some work.

[Elricity]

If people aren't playing blind obedience, you definitely run firstblades. The card is very powerful if it's not coming in tapped.

[Elricity]

Ok, I have to ask again about wear // tear. If you're not running it for Bx to use the dual mode, what are you using it in that revoke or glare aren't obscenely better choices? The instant speed matters that much?

[dpaine88]

I'm all aboard the R/W Burn train!!! got all caught up on this thread.

Nothing to contribute yet but am testing in paper and some on cockatrice.

Will report as soon as I have something useful to say, for now, thanks everyone for the very valuable info and especially you Zem.

[zemanjaski]

Ok, I have to ask again about wear // tear. If you're not running it for Bx to use the dual mode, what are you using it in that revoke or glare aren't obscenely better choices? The instant speed matters that much?

Point received.

Just killed someone on turn 28 with a fused Toil // Trouble (hit him for 2, I draw 2, he conceded at 1 life).

[zemanjaski]

3-1 in the DE, split finals of an SE.

Will try out the variations in the mana base tomorrow; that sort of tinkering is my favorite part of testing.

[JohnnyfnB]

Ok, I have to ask again about wear // tear. If you're not running it for Bx to use the dual mode, what are you using it in that revoke or glare aren't obscenely better choices? The instant speed matters that much?

You want it for Whip, Spear so they can't get life gain during an attack or push the extra damage through with Spear. There were times against B/W I had Revoke and they dropped a Whip and gained a shit load of life and it put me behind. I personally like the instant speed for such instances as that. It's a matter of personal preference and meta.

[zemanjaski]

I could see a 2 Mortars / 1 Spark Trooper split too; the Spark Trooper would be for mostly the same matchups (GR and Mono U) but doesn't hit any fringe matchups (eg: Mono R Aggro, Esper Midrange); a good friend of mine whom I test with and who I trust very much with card evaluation (when I first said to our group I wanted to play RW Burn at GP Melbourne most everyone just thought it was Zem being Zem, but he was like "Guildgates will give you really strong turn 1 plays") always tells me that where two cards are close in power level, to go with the cheaper option ~ I don't think the 1st Trooper is necessarily more powerful than the 3rd Mortars across the field (yes against Monsters; sometimes against Mono U as it depends on board state and other factors; worse most everywhere else) so with the Mortars being cheaper AND having synergy with YP$ AND having a relevant overload, I prefer that.

[zemanjaski]

I actually don't think that I have seen a Fiendslayer or Blind Obedience out of Esper in the last few days, which would make Wear // Tear overall better.

[zemanjaski]

So, there's a discussion to be had regarding 11th white source vs 4th Mutavault. Note that if we're on 11 white sources, that'll be Temple of Silence for value. My sideboard isn't as white heavy as it has been, but it still really affects sequencing to miss white early, so, though it is quite conservative, I prefer the 11th white source.

[zemanjaski]

I'm all aboard the R/W Burn train!!! got all caught up on this thread.

Nothing to contribute yet but am testing in paper and some on cockatrice.

Will report as soon as I have something useful to say, for now, thanks everyone for the very valuable info and especially you Zem.

Anytime amigo.

Was going to call you amiga, but I didn't think anyone would find it funny.

[zemanjaski]

<3 Chandra.

[zemanjaski]

I can also see an argument for 4th Mutavault over 3rd Assemble in the sideboard; it still helps with threat density vs MBC and is very relevant in the control matchup. Where a card can hit two key matchups instead of one that is my preference.

With that in mind, I don't hate bringing in Firstblades against MBC, there has been a real move away from Lifebane Zombie, at least online (your own experience may be different! Be careful!).

[JohnnyfnB]

So, there's a discussion to be had regarding 11th white source vs 4th Mutavault. Note that if we're on 11 white sources, that'll be Temple of Silence for value. My sideboard isn't as white heavy as it has been, but it still really affects sequencing to miss white early, so, though it is quite conservative, I prefer the 11th white source.

I too prefer the 11th white source. It has slightly more value especially later in the game with the scry ability. Plus me personally, I have found myself short a white mana one too many times.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah that really stings and like you said, even though it might be an unwanted land late (in which case it is inferior to Mutavault) it sill has some value.

[zemanjaski]

Still Toil // Trouble is overall better vs MBC than Firstblade (I think so, Firstblade is nice to curve out with, but as games go long and draw go starts I think the preferred choice changes), close in the mirror (if firstblade can connect in the mirror its usually an enormous tempo swing) but firstblade destroys esper.

Whatcha all think? Maybe run some games with Toil // Trouble to get a feel with it ~ I found it a bit weaker than Firstblade overall when preparing for GP Melbourne and would only consider it now if we're certain that we'll be facing Blind Obedience.

FWIW Peak Eruption makes Blind Obedience look silly in mirrors; constraining their mana and all that good stuff.

[rage_jl]

Ok, I have to ask again about wear // tear. If you're not running it for Bx to use the dual mode, what are you using it in that revoke or glare aren't obscenely better choices? The instant speed matters that much?

I'm trying out both and am torn on the issue. I've never used the dual on wear // tear. Exiling isn't particularly relevant, (Xenagos, Erebos, and Thasa being exceptions but if I'm worried about exiling them I tend to be behind enough it doesn't matter) for revoke over wear // tear; and online I've been playing against Bx more than Esper or UW. The dual effect is relevant against Uw/U devotion as well and has been relevant for me, though only one side or another has mattered at any particular time in my games. I
feel, I don't know, that wear // tear is more flexible overall because of the instant factor and only costs one for the most used half. If Esper was more prominent I would use Glare but I'm opting for wear // tear at the moment and thinking about finding room for a second in SB against Hexproof if nothing else.

[Airdraken]

What matchups are you bringing in the chandra vs, Z? Also must this deck run mutavault to give it that much more power? they are so damn pricey for us casuals x, been trying your latest decklist on OCTGN, will try to post results later.

[Elricity]

I actually don't think that I have seen a Fiendslayer or Blind Obedience out of Esper in the last few days, which would make Wear // Tear overall better.

Fair enough, I haven't played since Saturday. When I was playing, I always felt glare had a wider selection of matches it was useful. Then again, my rating isn't as high so I'm probably being paired with more white weenie players and such.

So, 9 duals, 2 silence, 3 vault, 1 malice?

Back when I was running toil, 4 black was enough to cast toil when I really needed it. 3 probably is fine as well.

That said, I'm surprised it's working for you in Bx as it plays into their 8 discard spell plan. The mirror I'm slightly less surprised although you have to get that off before they get to 4
mana or they can hand dump you, usually.

[zemanjaski]

Sp to recap, I want from every pilot a brief discussion on these topics asap:

- 4th mutavault vs 1st Temple of Silence
- 3rd assemble the legion vs 4th mutavault (sideboard)
- wear // tear vs glare of heresy (sideboard)
- viashino firstblade vs toil // trouble; value across the meta to justify sideboard inclusion (sideboard)

Arrigato !