[Primer] Boros Burn

[montu]

6x - Mono-Black Devotion
2x - U/W Devotion
2x - B/W Midrange
1x - Esper Control
1x - Mono-White Aggro
1x - Mono-Red Aggro
1x - Bant Control
1x - Five-Color Ramp
1x - Jund Monsters
1x - G/W Hexproof

And since Patrick Chapin just called Staff of the Death Magus "The Most Underrated Card In Standard" I'm guessing it's going to see a lot more play.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28 ... ndard.html

[lorddax]

So one thing I've been messing with in my board is rotating in and out 2x glare for 2x Renounce The Guilds here's my reasoning from my testing and match notes,

I found that majority of the time where I was getting done in by BBV or Ghost Dad I'd controlled everything off the field.
Renouncing with active whip is much poorer than Glaring IF you aren't renouncing to close.
In the Naya hexproof matchup I was never losing to their creature with the YP tokens, I was losing to their Unflinching courage.
Domri and Xenagos, are usually coupled with mono colored creatures and had response opportunities
Detention sphere is usually a bad Renounce target as they will either be boarded out, or there is a better play as sphere shouldn't catch more than one card if playing correctly.
Renounce can catch a lot of cards that are usually run out into empty boards as opps try to stablize
Opp will
always choose the target that you want the least.
For renounce to work as you want, you need to really know what the sequencing will probably be for opp and create the choice you want.
Yelling "Renounce your Ass!" is amazingly fun in the mirror
Renounce is best used in the end step to close out
Glare is wildly better as spot removal, and you don't have to work to get it off.
Glare will make tap out for Elspeth sad, but boarding in glare in a MU looking to close with her may not be a good play.
Glare will exile a lot of the stuff you want to renounce, but will miss some of the stuff you'd love to renounce.
Renounce likes FDS in the board over cackler, which weakens you to black removal.

Right now I'm leaning towards Renounce as it can come in to more MUs where we play the control role than Glare, but it requires much more work than Glare. Its speed is acting as an upside, its downside is opp choice, upside sac effect, downside hits GY.


Thoughts?

Also 2-0 into split (0-2) for
pack + split credit FNM as opp is chasing PP for GPPhilly bye, probably could have went 3-0 again but hunger and the desire to test other matchups won out. I have 3 weeks of notes I have to figure out how to transcribe so I can share with you all lol

[Elricity]

Yeah running his mana base, will report back on that too.

I'm not actually familiar with his decklist.

[LaZerBurn]

Yeah running his mana base, will report back on that too.

I'm not actually familiar with his decklist.

It's here

[Purp]

Renounce is dead is almost every matchup....

[lorddax]

Not saying its great, just wondering what other peoples opinions on it are because my view I think is tainted by abnormal success with it recently in testing.

[Elricity]

It's been awkward whenever I used it.

[LaZerBurn]

It's bad

[DXI-Edge]

All the multicolored spells we care about can be listed in two words

Detention Sphere

and we have other, more flexible options to use in order to kill it typically, which leaves it by the wayside sadly

[Elricity]

That Sherwin Pu manabase looks like it would flat out lose in the mirror. Z, I think you're going to find that cutting BO in that deck is going to make any mirror match unwinnable. 17 red sources to cast searing blood strikes me as particularly ambitious even with scry.

[zemanjaski]

I just burned $30 playing his deck. I hated it. Every game felt SO HARD; the deck's mana beats up on itself AND you don't have ANY easy win draws; without creatures to back up with burn (the heavy tempo draws) you're ALWAYS racing and that feels awful.

[zemanjaski]

I am going to try a modified version of Anthony Lowry's version today.

[zemanjaski]

Modified = competently built.

[Elricity]

Using dem reckoners, amirite?

I assume you basically mean the mana base, creatures, and the spells except cut toil and 3/3/3. And a new sideboard altogether.

[zemanjaski]

Yup. His sideboard was a real dog's breakfast.

Here's the test list:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
1 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Peak Eruption
3 Toil // Trouble
1 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

[zemanjaski]

So already I know the mana base needs 1 more black source so I can more reliably fuse Toil // Trouble in games that go long; but the deck feels OK so far (1-0 in an 8-man).

[zemanjaski]

Alright, we're on to 2-0, though I beat GW Aggro and Esper Midrange which are both excellent matchups for Burn; still, I am enjoying the extra scry.

[zemanjaski]

OK, won my first 8-man; 2-0, 2-1, 2-0.

Not sure what we can take from such a small sample size, but its funny how that happens sometimes.

[zenbitz]

I actually kind of like Rakdos' Return more than Toil // Trouble. At least, pretty much every game someone resolves RR (usually for 3) against me I lose.

[zemanjaski]

I don't hate that either; but actually resolving it would be difficult I think; and it requires substantially more black mana than I think it is actually viable to run (imo). Slaughter Games is probably the safest include, as much as I hate that effect.

[zemanjaski]

Opponent "you're the third burn deck I have faced so far. I crushed the other two guys"

[zemanjaski]

I LOVE this mana base. Six scrylands and four mutavaults never made drawing land so much fun.

[Sicklyfish]

So already I know the mana base needs 1 more black source so I can more reliably fuse Toil // Trouble in games that go long; but the deck feels OK so far (1-0 in an 8-man).

I cut a mutavault for a second Temple of Silence, it might need to be a Temple of Malice though. Not sure yet.

(Also first post here, surprised it took so long to make an account)

[zemanjaski]

Hola amigo.

Those are both reasonable suggestions. I could also run some number of Blood Crypt, but that isn't super exciting tbh.

[zemanjaski]

8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

is a possibility.

[zemanjaski]

This discussion is only relevant if we're serious about playing Toil // Trouble of course.

[JohnnyfnB]

I know some people don't like toil/trouble or are just against it, but a turn 3 trouble instantly puts your opponent on their heels. By turn 3 they could realistically be at 8 life. T1 shock, T2 Boros charm, T3 trouble. I'm digging it!

Edit. I think that 4 mountains would have to be replaced with Blood Crypts to help out.

[zemanjaski]

And lose every mirror, no thanks.

[Sicklyfish]

And lose every mirror, no thanks.

This is why I'm wondering how Pu made it so deep with his list, as burn looks like it was heavily represented on day 2.

[zemanjaski]

Favourable match ups / better play than Zem etc.

You can't ever put too much stock in a single result, it just means we consider and test it, not dismiss it outright.

[zemanjaski]

Mana base feels amazing (thanks Arial Nagy!).

Split finals of two SEs, 1-1 in the DE, should be 2-0 but that's how luck would have it today. Deck feels really good and consistent. 10 lands with spell like effects is incredible in this deck.

[Nezeru]

Yup. His sideboard was a real dog's breakfast.

Here's the test list:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
1 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Peak Eruption
3 Toil // Trouble
1 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

This deck is very similar to what I
played today at my LGS with 8 players, so basically an 8-man. My difference was maindeck -1 Temple of Malice +1 Mountain, sideboard was 2 assemble 1 chained 1 chandra 2 mizzium mortars 4 firedrinker satyr 3 peak eruption 1 glare 1 spark trooper. Matchups:

Round 1 2-1 vs GR Monsters
Game 1 I lost, but probably due to a misplay - I Jetted his Domri turn 2 with a land-light hand, and then Shocked it on my turn to kill and leave 2 mana up. If I had sent the 4 at his face, it's likely I would have won, though if he ever hit a Courser I would just die.
Sideboarding: +1 Chained +2 Mortars +3 Peak Eruption +1 Chandra +1 Spark Trooper, -3 Boros Charm -2 Shock -2 Skullcrack
Game 2 I won easily after turn 3 Peak Eruption. He played a turn 7 Ruric Thar and died on my upkeep to Warleader's Helix. Chandra did work.
Sideboarding: -3 Peak Eruption +3 Boros Charm
Game 3 was a bit tricky. His spells were Domri Rade, 2 Stormbreath Dragon, Polukranos. I won by recurring Chandra's Phoenixes and killing his Dragons
with burn. He misplayed by fighting my Phoenix and attacking into my burn spell. On the previous turn, he attacked with Stormbreath into Phoenix and I blocked and Searing Blooded before damage (he was tapped out so no Rampager) and he questioned my ability to get back the Phoenix this way, so he probably wasn't very good. It was amusing how he sequenced his mana after I Peak Erupted him in game 2 - he played Temple, Forest, Forest, Mountain specifically to avoid the card I boarded out.

Round 2 2-0 vs Bw Devotion
Game 1 I had tons of burn and he had Underworld Connections.
Sideboarding: +1 Chained (he had 4 DD and Gray Merchants) +1 Chandra +2 Assemble
Game 2 was a well-fought game that came down to him misplaying by making me sacrifice my Mutavault with Devour Flesh instead of saving it to gain life. He had me dead on board and I Jetted into Chained/Skullcrack with him at 9, he plays a second Gray Merchant and I Skullcrack him, he attacks with Gray Merchant into my Mutavault and hits me for 6 in the
air, I block and Searing Blood him to 3. On my turn I play the Skullcrack into his two open mana hoping he doesn't have the Devour Flesh (it was my only out anyway) and he didn't have it.

Round 3 1-2 vs Bw Devotion
Game 1 I crushed having Searing Blood off the top after his Thoughtseize to kill his Pack Rat (my hand was triple Skullcrack, Lightning Strike, Magma Jet and two lands and he had taken the Jet) and burning him out with his chaining Grey Merchants and my chaining Skullcracks.
Boarding (incorrectly): same as above. This guy was playing Blood Baron and Grey Merchant so I should have brought in Mizzium Mortars.
Game 2 I lost to his topdecked Revoke on my Chain to get back his Demon, I got him to 1 but the topdeck didn't help and he had a Demon to block my Phoenix with. Mutavault, any burn spell except Searing Blood, or a topdecked second Phoenix would have been lethal, so I was actually more than 50% to kill him at that point.
Game 3 I lost to his much better draws. I kept a two-land hand
and drew seven lands, while he chained Blood Baron into double Grey Merchant, drew 3 Bile Blights off the top to answer my Phoenix repeatedly to get in for damage, and his Desecration Demon at the end left me with no outs after his topdecked Revoke Existence took care of Assemble the Legion at two counters.

This is the second match I've lost to this style of deck due to variance, but such is the game of Magic.

[zemanjaski]

Going after the PW's in GR is [i[almost[/i] always wrong. Sounds like otherwise the deck was performing well for you. Can i get your thoughts on:

- mana and extra scrylands
- chandra in the SB, what's your experience been?
- sb creature plan vs. the alternatives

Arrigato

[zemanjaski]

2-1 in the DE after annihilating a hapless Esper player. Haven't actually cast a Toil//Trouble (either side) yet, but the deck feels very powerful with the extra spell lands. I know I just said that, but wow, feels great.

[zemanjaski]

More decisions = more opportunity to leverage skill over your opponent.

[NerdBoyWonder]

Yup. His sideboard was a real dog's breakfast.

Here's the test list:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
1 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Peak Eruption
3 Toil // Trouble
1 Wear // Tear
[/deck]

Gonna jam some games with this list on
my last practice before GP Phoenix to see how it runs. Both UW and Esper test partners are on the creature sideboard plan with BO as back up so a creatureless sideboard plan to blank blocks a bit seems pretty solid with a much more heavier spell back up. Let me get this sideboarding correct though for match ups:

G/r & Jund Monsters:
Mizzum & Chains in with possibly PE in

Mirror/Red Aggro:
Chandra, PE, Chains in. Mizziums in if on Devotion plan.

Esper & U/W/x control:
Toil//Trouble, Chandra, & Wear//Tear in

MBC:
Assemble, Chain and Wear//Tear in

Creature Aggro:
Black - Wear//Tear, Chains, and Mizziums
MUD or UWD - Chains & Mizziums

Let me know if this is correct. Going off assumption based off of previous discussion.

[zemanjaski]

Its about right. If MBC is on Specter, you shoudl Consider some Mortars over Searing Blood.

[Nezeru]

Going after the PW's in GR is [i[almost[/i] always wrong. Sounds like otherwise the deck was performing well for you. Can i get your thoughts on:

- mana and extra scrylands
- chandra in the SB, what's your experience been?
- sb creature plan vs. the alternatives

Arrigato

-I am running 9 Mountain, 1 Guildgate, 4 Temple, 4 Foundry for a total of 18 red sources. This is sufficient to have a 90% chance for RR by turn 4, which is very close to where I want to be. Turn 3 Chandra's Phoenix is obviously an option, but we aren't likely to run double burn spells out before turn 4 and the percentage missing on turn 3 RR while also having a Phoenix is low enough
for me. I understand that with Shock + YP there are also hands that will be an issue with 18 vs 19 red sources, but the extra scry and 4th Mutavault are at least worth trying out. You're running an extra scry land (Temple of Malice) but I'm not sure how I feel about 6-8 lands always coming in tapped - moving away from the guildgate does appeal to me though! Testing will tell us what is more important here. Also my white source count is at a (slightly anemic but still rather healthy) 10, which gives about the same percentages as the 18 red sources.
-Chandra has been very good, but not good enough for me to bump her up to 2 yet. She has come in against almost everything, which makes me want to mainboard her, but the only card I'd consider cutting for her is the 3rd Shock or Searing Blood. Also, she dilutes the mainboard strategy slightly. My friend runs a similar list and he runs Chandra and she's been great for him as well.
-If by creature plan you're referring to my Jackal Pup(sorry, mean Satyr
Firedrinker) set, it seems okay but these are four flex spots! I kind of like having it against decks that run Caryatid but not Domri Rade, and definitely like having it against control, but I can see cutting these for more cards to fight sideboard hate or flexible cards that answer a variety of threats. The old sideboard of jam packed creatures I was never a big fan of. Satyr Firedancer is a metagame call. Cackler I tested and never liked.

Peak Eruption I bring in in the mirror and on the play against Monsters, and so far it's been good, but there are about twenty other cards fighting for this sideboard space. The maindeck spell choices feel very good with YP over Ash Zealot, and I might add a sixth and seventh scryland and cut the Guildgate.

[zemanjaski]

3-1 in the DE (needed to hit two points of burn in five draw stips, scry twice, miss every time in my loss); made finals in four straight SEs (two splits, one win, one loss).

[magicdownunder]

How are you liking [card]Toil // Trouble[/card] Z? I know some people love the card because that ONE FNM it did over 9000 damage, but in the grand scales of things how many times is that card actually good?