[Primer] Boros Burn

[Purp]

Both you niggas get back on topic

[LP, of the Fires]

I just realized I've never once mad a "pass the Purp" joke.

[Kaitscralt]

"The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule."

<<<admin

[zemanjaski]

Make me a global mod dammit.

[zemanjaski]

[zenbitz]

Our cards are basically worth 2 life/2mana (counting lands as ~dead). Helix is actually worth ~3 cards (it's 8 points of lifeswing i.e, 4 cards but 4 mana, so I downgrade it)

If you play chandra/0 and he helixes her, he gains 4 life (~1.5 cards), you get a card. So he's +0.5 card.
If you play chandra/+1 that's 1/2 a card, he helices you for his 3, you are at -2.5 cards but you get 1 card/turn. So as long as you both have 9+ life chandra is better.

[Kaitscralt]

put more easily, against burn she is a two for one at worst

asking if a Planeswalker is worse than a burn spell that does one less damage than the planeswalkers loyalty is not a fair question

"I have a Planeswalker against an empty board. Is this good?"

[zemanjaski]

Sure, but that's the scenario you're engineering and it's illustrative of these facts;
- creatures will deal infinite damage
- spells will deal finite damage
- in a scenario where both players are low on resources, the side with repeatable damage is favoured

The key card is still helix but now your opponent must deal with your creatures; this means that it's easier for you to resolve helix and harder for them; how good is helix your face when you're getting smacked every turn by creatures?

Playing creatures above a certain density SUBSTANTIALLY reduces the quality of Boros Charm and Skullcrack; they don't interact with creatures and they can't race.

Evaluating Chandra needs to be done in that context; your opponent has to expend resources on creatures, so you get to dictate the action.

[Elricity]

Ok. Tempted to say go to 2 chains then. Similar plan to what we would do vs BW with 4 demons. All the rest of our spells are better unless it's against phoenixs and if they're wasting burn on creatures, then they aren't recurring. Crazy talk?

Unless they're crazy and running reckoner of course.

[Kaitscralt]

Sure, but that's the scenario you're engineering and it's illustrative of these facts;
- creatures will deal infinite damage
- spells will deal finite damage
- in a scenario where both players are low on resources, the side with repeatable damage is favoured

The key card is still helix but now your opponent must deal with your creatures; this means that it's easier for you to resolve helix and harder for them; how good is helix your face when you're getting smacked every turn by creatures?

Playing creatures above a certain density SUBSTANTIALLY reduces the quality of Boros Charm and Skullcrack; they don't interact with creatures and they can't race.

Evaluating Chandra needs to be done in that context; your opponent has to expend resources on creatures, so
you get to dictate the action.

my scenario was based on the scenario you gave me, nothing about your post suggested I wasn't to take it literally

[Kaitscralt]

ie you have this card, i have this card, we have four lands

[zemanjaski]

Sure, but you have to arrive in that board state somehow.

[Kaitscralt]

the point remains that it's risky business to say "I have a Planeswalker, you don't have a way to kill it, am I favored?"

[Kaitscralt]

I like Chandra though, we don't need to bicker over semantics

Why does nobody ever test Stormbreath Dragon? It's better than a lot of the random suggestions.

[zemanjaski]

Its fine, but it was only fine before and got a lot worse now that people are sideboarding Blind Obedience - right now it doesnt really warrant consideration.

[LP, of the Fires]

I like Chandra though, we don't need to bicker over semantics

Why does nobody ever test Stormbreath Dragon? It's better than a lot of the random suggestions.

I DO SUGGEST STORMBREATH DRAGON.

It's even very good at what it does. The issue is control runs BO now along with being esper and having access to doom blades turning Stormbreath from game ending threat, to 5 mana: timewalk myself.

[Elricity]

Blind obedience I assume. Otherwise, it's better against azorius and burn. I enjoyed the dragon a couple weeks ago.

Ninjaed =\

You never brought it in against Esper.

[zemanjaski]

Currently 1-0 in my first 8-man for the season. Played the mirror and ran him over disgustingly.

Game 1, my draw was Zealot > Phoenix > YP$ plus shock your Zealot. He had to send burn to my creatures and I just crushed him.

Game 2 he's on the all lava spike draw and has to turn 4 Helix a Cackler, allowing me to mainphase Helix back which effectively ends the game.

[zemanjaski]

Round vs Mono Red Aggro

Game 1 he had a triple Firedrinker draw. Didn't end well for him.

Game 2 I sideboarded into this:

[zemanjaski]

20 minutes work for 4 packs and 2QPs. Yeah, still the best.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Glad to hear the deck is still working out.

I'll try to take it to Canadian FNM on 4/4.

Wonder what it will be like playing with opponents I can communicate with...

[warwizard87]

zem i have to ask in your side, why cackler and not firedrinker?

[zemanjaski]

Better in the mirror, relevant removal immunities. He's on trial.

[DXI-Edge]

^He boards in Cackler in the red mirror^

Ok, took the following list to a 3-1 at local FNM, losing a nailbiter of a 3rd game to UWR Control with 4 Fiendslayer's side, Izzet Charm, Blind Obedience, Elixir, Quick, and Mortars.
The rest of my matches were quick 2-0 stomps.

I'm heavily convinced this deck is INCREDIBLE still. Need to do tweaks (as I do everyday before I sign up), but this is what I'm at today

[deck]
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix

3 Chained to the Rocks
3 Shock
3 Searing Blood
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
4 Lightning Strike
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix

3 Boros Guildgate
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
9 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Firedrinker Satyr
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Blind Obedience
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Spark Trooper
1 Chained to the Rocks
[/deck]

Gonna consider cutting Searing Blood for 3 Young Pyromancers main, making room for the
4th, 4th Mutavault and 1 other card (wear/tear?), but not entirely sure yet.

Was very happy with the deck

[warwizard87]

I plan on playing boros burn in a couple weeks a scg invitational trial is why im asking. I really don't expect a lot of mirror matches, around here there is mostly MBC, blue devotion, esper and monsters. a hand full of people play red and most of them are just aggressive builds. For my meta I think staying away from cackler might be better with so much esper.

oh btw really happy with YP$ being back in the deck. It was something I was considering anyway, you talking about running it makes me want to bring him back all the more.

[LaZerBurn]

Better in the mirror, relevant removal immunities. He's on trial.

In the screenshot you posted you didn't bring him in for G2 which I was expecting given the discussion on here and your comments on threat density. Would it be accurate to say that while still adhering to a general strategy (eg keep in creatures) you SB on a flexible (more intuitive?) basis from game to game rather than always following a specific +2 X -2 Y plan?

I'm striving to become better at and develop a greater understanding of SBing so I'd be very interested in reading a long and in depth article on SBing strategy and application, including how to evaluate the strength of cards in certain match ups. I understand if this isn't
interesting for you to write but people would definitely read it - given the level of comments you are getting on CFB I'd say you're currently in the position of being able to write anything and have people read it

EDIT - Disregard this, it's a different game I need to drink more coffee before I post in the AM

[LP, of the Fires]

That matchup was the actual burn mirror. His opponent was on Red deck wins where instead of us being the aggressor, we're the Young Pyromancer control deck and our plan is to kill everything.

The interesting dichotomy at work here(and why this is the best red deck) is that against the burn decks, we add just enough creatures to apply some pressure while being able to burn them out when they try to play the CA game against us and against straight RDW with a bunch of cheap guys, we keep there guys in check then demolish them with either unanswered YP(they tend to play only like, 6 removal spells) and/or Warleaders helix which causes a big life swing and then we kill them with a combination of burn spells, elemental tokens and mutavault.

[LP, of the Fires]

Also lazer, checked out your facebook page: SO MUCH ASS!

[LaZerBurn]

Thanks LP - I REALLY need to pay better attention when reading posts first thing in the AM!

Also, pleased you like the ass, it's one of my greatest 's

[Elricity]

Just to make sure I really am not crazy. Vs BW with demon, BBV, and ghost dad, it is just 2 chains, right?

So the good news. The deck now has a slightly better chance against hexproof. Bad news, still awful. I'll take the game I won off the back of massive gang blocks.

[LP, of the Fires]

I usually either keep it at 3 or board out the 3rd. It misses on obzedat and BBV and if you have a YP draw, it's not important vs demon. Plus, post board they have 6>8 duress affects so you don't want them stripping your action leaving you with chains then they play a 5 drop.

[Elricity]

That's what I figured. I'm slightly tilting from mulls to 5 and such.

[magicdownunder]

This thread moves very quickly, I just want too say something which I'm sure you guys already know - build your deck to attack your meta - don't blindly make changes (pros and grinders do make rapid changes, but its for a reason) if your meta is FILLED with burn don't swap Ash for YPS, don't cut Searing Blood or BO.

[Jediace42]

As a long time lurker and burn player, I have to ask this now then, How do you predict a meta of a larger tournament, like say GP Phoenix which is what I personally am preparing for, in order to build you deck with the proper meta changes?
Sorry if that's a bit off topic, but I am really not that experienced with bigger tournaments, mostly just FNM's but I cant miss out on trying to do well at a hometown GP right?

[LP, of the Fires]

Several factors: trends, local meta, type of tournament.

Right now espers trending so will be a large part of the meta and you can expect an uptick in anti esper decks.

Your local store of even region may be slanted towards an archetype.

Gps are large events that attract lots of people and in a diverse meta be prepared for anything.

When you take all that info and combine it, you grabbing start making informed decisions.

[Elricity]

This thread moves very quickly, I just want too say something which I'm sure you guys already know - build your deck to attack your meta - don't blindly make changes (pros and grinders do make rapid changes, but its for a reason) if your meta is FILLED with burn don't swap Ash for YPS, don't cut Searing Blood or BO.

Definitely true but I'd say YP is better vs burn than ash zealot but quite a margin.

My local meta is about 2-3 weeks behind us so I still see janky things like boros reckoners. Generally I'm ok striking the guy but it does make the creature plan awkward.

[Jediace42]

So planning to beat up on those planning to beat esper is what I got out of that, but to be ready for anything. This is gonna be interesting. Time to start tweaking my list for FNM this week and the GP next week, Ill probably post something in the morning about how that comes out. Thanks!

[jsilv]

FWIW, as someone who has played the burn / esper match a lot, the scariest cards on the Esper side are easily Burning Earth, Chandra (bc the last thing I need is a red deck drawing cards), Skullcrack and Firedrinker Satyr. The best G1 cards by about a million miles are Phoenix, Mutavault and Skullcrack. The only reason I dislike the Phoenix / Mutavault plan post-board is generally Esper gets 1-3 more removal spells and relevant blockers.

Part of the reason Burning Earth is good, is because it forces me to leave in Detention Sphere which is a card I generally classify the same as Verdict, AKA: Very clunky and miserable unless it snags Phoenix.

I also think the post-board match is very much a guessing game that can go multiple ways depending on what you expect the opponent to bring it. Fiendslayer is ridic good though, yes you CAN lose a game with it in play, but you could say that about any incremental card.

Also this
was a thing:

http://imgur.com/n7nniju,TkzeYP1,y736lnr#0

[zemanjaski]

Nice Josh.

[cloudscraper]

I've seen suggestions of specific cards to improve a variety of matchups. What can I do if my area is full of BW MIdrange? Shift to Fated Conf to kill Obzedat? Play more than two MM?