[Primer] Boros Burn

[zemanjaski]

Post board games go long, the deck has quite a bit of filtering and when you draw it you just win. It also puts them in the quandry when they thoughtseize you and see a good 1 or 2 drop and assemble; they kinda have to take assemble.

[zemanjaski]

OK, how about:

[deck]Sideboard[/deck]

Needs more 1-ofs?

[DXI-Edge]

On the topic of the original manabase, I like having it due to having Blind Obedience, Spark Trooper and potentially Assemble/Wear-Tear in the sideboard. I want to try it as a 1 of, wont be surprised if its bad and wont try to force it.

I still think having Blind Obedience is good in the mirror, and also good against the creature heavy version of the deck which I still believe is a hard matchup. I also think having 6 1-drops against a matchup that is already supposedly "good" for us is a little iffy, especially when they dont come in in other matchups. I dont like turning on opposing searing bloods, and siding in cacklers in the mirror seems bad due to turning on opposing searing bloods, making us worse off ESPECIALLY if we're cutting Blind Obedience and lowering our Searing Blood count.

I'm still not 100% sold on the mutavault sideboard

[LP, of the Fires]

You can NEVER have enough 1-ofs

[LP, of the Fires]

I still like the idea of a 1-of Chandra.

[LP, of the Fires]

Mono-blacks taking out hero's downfalls anyways for cheaper removal.

[zemanjaski]

Esper isn't "supposedly" good, it is is good. I went 7-1 against Esper at the GP and 3-0 at the GPT. Every Esper player I have spoken to (PT players, national level players etc) agree its a bad matchup.

[NerdBoyWonder]

Still having trouble deciding on a core 75 to take to Phoenix but it quite possibly be just nerves with a combination of meta shifts. Just as I was loving Viashino and Ash Zealot it looks like we are putting them to the way side. Going to try YP$ in the board for my 2 days of testing before I head to Phoenix next week. This thread moves pretty quick with new ideas and it's been pretty damn hard for me to try some of these out.

General idea of where I am at after catching up:

[deck]4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
3 Searing Blood
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

2 Chain to the Rocks

3 Boros Guildgate
9 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
2 Blind Obedience
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chain to the Rocks
1 Fated Conflagration
3 Satyr Firedancer
4 Firedrinker Satyr
1 Wear//Tear[/deck]

Trying out Wear//
Tear for testing. if not I have an open slot. Didn't want to load up on too many Chains with Esper making a come back so kept it at 2 with the rest in the side. Dropped a Searing Blood while powerful I want it for some matches not all matches and brought back in a Shock because YP$ demands it.

[Nezeru]

Tied for 1st in a 20-person standard event today, split the finals. I played the 'older' list from yesterday without maindeck Young Pyromancers and had the following results:

Round 1 2-0 vs Mono-Black Devotion
I won game 1 by getting him to 4 and topdecking Magma Jet rebuying my Phoenix for lethal. I didn't see a Skullcrack this game, and he did drain me for 6 at one point with Gray Merchant.
On the draw I went -4 Ash Zealot +1 Assemble +2 Blind Obedience +1 Chained to the Rocks (I feel like Mutavault should come in to make it easier to cast Assemble but didn't know what to cut)
Game 2 I won with Blind Obedience extorting him out of the game (Boros Charm for 6 lifeswing is nuts)

Round 2 2-0 vs Naya Hexproof
I expected the match to be terrible when he goes turn 1 Gladecover Scout, but fortunately I burned him out on turn 5 and he didn't see Courage/Gift. I boarded out Shock, Searing Blood and Chained and boarded
in 2 Mizzium Mortars, Mutavault, 3 Young Pyromancer, Spark Trooper and 2 Blind Obedience. I won game 2 after Skullcracking his attempt at gaining life with Witchstalker + unflinching Courage.

Round 3 2-0 vs GR Monsters
This match was really easy. Game 1 I burned him out while he attacked me with Polukranos with little effect and had Domri Rade + Xenagos the Reveler doing nothing. I boarded out 4 Skullcrack and 4 Ash Zealot and boarded in 2 Mizzium Mortars, 1 Spark Trooper, 2 Blind Obedience, and 3 Young Pyromancer. YP$ took him out of game 2 and Blind Obedience blanked his Xenagod.

Round 4 ID vs Mono-Black. We played a few games and went about 50-50 but I drew tons of lands.

About the recent suggestions, I've been loving the Pyromancer recently and will test them maindeck. In my area, we have a lot of Mono-Black, Esper control, a few GR decks, and an increasing number of Boros Burn players, mostly playing the creature-heavy version from SCG Seattle. In my experience, the creature version is
actually not very good against the burn-heavy version, but I can see from this forum that others think differently. I guess more testing will tell.

I tried out Fated Conflagration for one tournament and it was great in theory, but as I never once drew any of the 3 copies I was sideboarding, I can't comment on its actual usefulness.

[dauntless268]

On the switch to YP in the MD (Warning: Wall of text incoming):

One thing I've come to realize while brewing with this deck online (with a lot of help from LaZerBurn, props! ) is that there are a number of excellent sideboard cards with unfortunately very narrow applications. But as the Meta is so varied we often lack space in our SB to include them:

My list would go something like this:

Satyr Firedancer vs. Creature Decks without a lot of removal
Assemble the Legion vs. Black Devo
Spark Trooper vs. Monsters
[card]Toil/Trouble[/card] vs. Esper Control
Burning Earth vs. 3 Colour Durdle Decks
Wild Ricochet vs. Mirror
Peak Eruption
vs. Mirror
Glaring Spotlight vs. Hexproof (OK I outright refuse to play this card)

In a wider sense, I would also include
Rakdos Cackler / Satyr Firedancer vs. Esper Control & Black Devo on the play (but not good vs. B Devo on the draw)
Chandra, Pyromaster vs. Esper Control & possibly Burn (but not good vs. B Devo if they SB correctly)
Fated Conflagration vs. Orzhov Control & Jund Monsters (but not good vs. Ux Devo)

Instead "broader" cards like Mizzium Mortars, Young Pyromancer and maybe also Blind Obedience save space but are somewhat less specific in terms of what they address...

Typical Chat on MTGO:

Clemens268: Hey, I really think XYZ (insert
card name from the above list) would be a great addition to our sideboard !
LaZerBurn: No room
Clemens268: Ummm... you're right

All just to say that we can debate about the value of YP vs. Ash G1, but one thing it does is make our SB better (apart from obviously replacing GG with Temples, which we all should like ). We just need to figure out which of the narrow cards we actually need most.

That said, a few days ago I made a switch to the following, after realizing I sideboarded in YP in almost every matchup, but still wanting to keep
Ash (about 40% of MTGO Meta is B Devo, Orzhov or Control)

[deck]Dauntless 268 Boros Burn as at 25-March-14[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Ash Zealot
2 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
2 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
3 Boros Guildgate
9 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
2 Blind Obedience
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Satyr Firedancer
1 Young Pyromancer
4 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Mutavault

[/deck]

Not saying this is better than simply 4 YP main, but I do like the increased chance of having at least 1 threat MD. I might actually go 3/3 Ash/YP in next iteration...

[Elricity]

This came up at the LGS but if you're going to a 16-18 creature post board game, what about a 1 of pyrewild shaman? Is the repeatable damage useful?

Satyr nyx-smith is there as an option that cares less about blind obedience than the other hasters and has to be answered quickly and has an upside of being scary if there isn't a BO on the board. That said, sorcery speed. And on that train, spirit of the labyrinth.

Been hearing talk that we're messing up the meta enough that GW might try to claw back in. Probably talk.

Two other ideas is reactive cards like ratchet bomb or pithing needle. They have more reach than something like wear/tear for sure and one gives you a solid answer to hexproof that isn't a joke everywhere else.

What matchup are we trying to improve?

[Toddington]

I'm trying to math out the sideboard, and it seems like Hammer of Purphoros has good applications (and overlap) against the control decks (Bx, UWx). The tokens have pseudo-haste against Blind Obedience (EOT), and it turbo charges YP$ if they don't have BO. It seems strong if you are also bringing in the 4th Mutavault and going up to 24 land. I don't really think it's good in any other matchups though, so it probably isn't better than the 6th Firedrinker/Cackler...

It seems to me that the decision point at the moment, is whether we want Firedancer in the sideboard or not. I've been fiddling with it, and if you are bringing Firedancer, it affects how many Skullcrack/Boros Charm you want to board out. If you don't have Firedancer, you can rip out all the Crack/Charms and have like 8 cards for Monsters and Ux?

[LaZerBurn]

I waking up to lots of posts like this I've not got much to add to the debate as things seem to have been pretty well discussed while I was slumbering but after digesting the latest stuff here's where I'm at -

So, I like FDS over Cackler BUT I like the all in creatures on the play in the mirror option (dauntless's 'critical mass' arguement) so I'm going to try Cackler.

I can see YP over Ash main; Mezzel has been running this for months and dauntless268 has been doing well with 2 MD YP for the last week. I Ash and when I'm playing her I can't imagine life without her but when she's gone I don't seem to miss her, we'll see if this is
the case this time around. I also REALLY like the amount of SB space this frees up

I like that this allows for a Temple over a GG, I've always viewed GG as a necessary evil

4 Shock/2 Searing Blood? This is a tricky one, I Searing Blood BUT with YP the logic is pretty solid so I'll try it.

More 1 drops in the SB? I think the answer is yes. I've been playing 15 creatures (4 FDS, 4 Ash, 3 VFB/YP 4 CP) against Bx Devo and Esper/UW Control and if we swap YP for Ash and don't run anymore in the SB we're down to 12 which I think is too low, even allowing for YP tokens, so I'd like I at least 2 more.

OK, how about:

[deck]Sideboard[/deck]

Needs more 1-ofs?

Er, ok, seems perfect

I this SB; it's got everything I like to play and I'm especially happy to see SFD in there as if MonoU and GW are going to see more play he'll be incredibly strong

Apparently I'm pretty ed up today, guess I'll just go with it

[JohnnyfnB]

Now with people playing YP (which I am going to test now) and siding Assemble, if there is room for a 1 of, would it be out of line to suggest Purphoros? Most decks can't remove it and if you get YP and or Assemble on line with him out, it's tap out time. Then things change if you get him turned on.

EDIT: Not to mention all of the red weenies in the board now.

[Lithanial]

Went 3-0 with my battalion variant today over in the Tokyo meta. G1: Rakdos Aggro (2-0), G2 MBC (2-1) G3 U/w Devotion (2-0).

Had a feature match vs the MBC 3:49 in: http://www.twitch.tv/happymtg/b/514100211

[Khaospawn]

God, darkwing duck is op. He's hat's fucking dank AND the nigga wears purple like a pimp.

Let's get dangerous!

[Kaitscralt]

You don't have to keep changing for the sake of changing

Less is more, etc

Dilution be your downfall !¡!

[zemanjaski]

I just like to try stuff out. Went 3-1 in the DE with Young Pyro tonight, felt fine. Not necessarily clear its better than Ash Zealot.

[rcwraspy]

still feel that FDS > Cackler for us. If you have 6 1-drops in the board, try 4 FDS 2 Cack or 3 of each.

[BurnItAllClean]

Now with people playing YP (which I am going to test now) and siding Assemble, if there is room for a 1 of, would it be out of line to suggest Purphoros? Most decks can't remove it and if you get YP and or Assemble on line with him out, it's tap out time. Then things change if you get him turned on.

EDIT: Not to mention all of the red weenies in the board now.

I've been running 2x Purphoros in the main just to test it out with YP. If I can resolve him it's game over.

[JohnnyfnB]

Now with people playing YP (which I am going to test now) and siding Assemble, if there is room for a 1 of, would it be out of line to suggest Purphoros? Most decks can't remove it and if you get YP and or Assemble on line with him out, it's tap out time. Then things change if you get him turned on.

EDIT: Not to mention all of the red weenies in the board now.

I've been running 2x Purphoros in the main just to test it out with YP. If I can resolve him it's game over.

How has the testing been going in general? Does big P get to come on line at all? I
know you'd need double CP. I wish red had a cheap enchantment that dinked for 1 like Curse of the Pierced Heart from the last block. Hoping we get something like that and a great R/W God. Another kick ass burn spell and nasty haste creature would be great too.

[BurnItAllClean]

Now with people playing YP (which I am going to test now) and siding Assemble, if there is room for a 1 of, would it be out of line to suggest Purphoros? Most decks can't remove it and if you get YP and or Assemble on line with him out, it's tap out time. Then things change if you get him turned on.

EDIT: Not to mention all of the red weenies in the board now.

I've been running 2x Purphoros in the main just to
test it out with YP. If I can resolve him it's game over.

How has the testing been going in general? Does big P get to come on line at all? I know you'd need double CP. I wish red had a cheap enchantment that dinked for 1 like Curse of the Pierced Heart from the last block. Hoping we get something like that and a great R/W God. Another kick ass burn spell and nasty haste creature would be great too.

I haven't been able to get him online, but I don't think it matters. Being able to spend 4 mana on a shock and reclaimed phoenix for 6 damage has been pretty OP so far. Going to keep testing tonight and see if Big P is worth running.

Best case scenario happened last night. He tapped out and I had a Big P on the board. End of his turn I burn for 6 with magma jet and boros charm. My turn I play Young Py (found with magma jet), then play the 2 shocks in my hand. 16 damage around the top of my turn with 4 land in play is nothing to scoff at. I had 2 life
left. He rage quit.

I had the nuttiest nut hand I could have had so i recognize Big P isn't always going to be that powerful, but he's at least worth testing with Young P.

If they don't give us something juicy with the Boros God I'm going to be a sad panda.

[Purp]

Putting together a list for tonights testing in order to get ready for Invitational.

Decks I am predicting to be popular. In relative order: Esper, I assume UW but why not just play esper?, Mono Black (I also expect a lot of BW midrange), Monsters varients, Mono U (Mono U has a bad control matchup right?), Mirrors(This might be up above monster variants tbh) and Aggro.

Still unsure of the cut of Ash Zealot for YP$. I'll post a list later before I head out.

[dauntless268]

Can I suggest we're adding both big P and Assemble MD to be really sure nobody recognizes this as a Burn Deck anymore? Could give us a strategic advantage...

[Purp]

I don't like increasing my game 1 curve when my G1 plan is to win as fast in possible. Adding what would equate to two more 4 drops and 1-2 5 drops is not appealing. Postboard when the games are usually a bit more drawn out, I could see it... but I don't like the Purphuros discussion, that is a completely different deck.

[BurnItAllClean]

I don't like increasing my game 1 curve when my G1 plan is to win as fast in possible. Adding what would equate to two more 4 drops and 1-2 5 drops is not appealing. Postboard when the games are usually a bit more drawn out, I could see it... but I don't like the Purphuros discussion, that is a completely different deck.

Having Big P in the side might be a good option. Currently I've got 2x Big P main and 2x Warleader's Helix main. I still have Helix and Sparky in the side for when I need the life gain. It does change the deck a bit, but I think the synergy between Big P, Young P and our huge burn package has potential. I'll let everyone know how it goes after testing tonight.

[Purp]

An initial thought I am having, YP$ is significantly worse vs Jund Monsters since they are bringing in golgari charms to deal with CttR

[BurnItAllClean]

An initial thought I am having, YP$ is significantly worse vs Jund Monsters since they are bringing in golgari charms to deal with CttR

I agree. I've been siding out 4 YP$ and siding in 3 MM, and 1 CttR against Monstards. Seems to be working just fine.

[zenbitz]

Only other card I could think of is Celestial Flare. Good against hexproof, blood baron, big dudes, obezdat, fiendslayer. Would come in in place of chained to rocks. Hard to cast, but not going to cast it on turn 2 or 3 anyway. Probably terrible idea.


Do we need 24 lands to run assemble (i.e, this always comes in with the 'vault in the board)... I kinda think we do.

[Elricity]

I refuse to play two sorceries back to back that don't immediately affect the board.

I actually tried Purphoros and YP an age back. It's still going to suck.

Zen, [mana]WW[/mana] cards aren't an option.

I just bothered to read back on Z's post on actually putting cacklers in vs burn and figured out why he wants 4 of instead of drinkers. Whole plan seems risky since not all the burn players are caught up on the meta.

[JohnnyfnB]

OK, I have been thinking about the direction that the testing is going and problem cards that we face. Some of us have switched AZ for YP. Some of us have went from playing 3 Shocks and 4 Searing Blood to 4 Shocks and 3 Searing Bloods. I'm going to replace the Searing Bloods with Titan's Strength. Searing Blood losses value with control with the only target being Mutavault or an Elspeth token, which you don't want to see the game that far. Titan's Strength is solid against aggro and control.

Using AZ it becomes a 5/3 first strike taking out all of the biggins in G/R and Jund on offense or defense. It finally breaks through Sylvan Caryatid. In response it can dodge a Searing Blood or Shock in the mirror and scrying for 1.

Using YP it becomes a 5/2 dodging Golgari Charm while making a token. It can target one of it's tokens, while making another. The token becomes a 4/1.

Using CP it
becomes a 5/3 which takes out NVS or can block and kill SBD, Blood Baron and more. Also dodging a Searing Blood or Shock in the mirror.

Let us not forget our 3 Mutavaults, which becomes a 5/3, dodging Searing Blood or Shock.

That gives us 11 targets for Titan's Strength, more if your counting tokens. It's also an element of surprise on offense and defense and provides some answers to some problems like Sylvan Caryatid and NVS. It really adds more pressure in our control match up, where Searing Blood is meh. I will be testing this with AZ all this week. What do you guys think?

EDIT: Also, at 1 mana it provides us more efficient use of our mana. Plus, me personally I have been underwhelmed with Searing Blood lately.

[Purp]

Ive tested it, it might be better now with YP$... but more often than not, you will have Titan's Str and no creature to put it on.

[montu]

I was not kidding about 2x Glaring Spotlight for mtgo either, hexproof can get fucked.

Wouldn't Ratchet Bomb be a decent 1-2 in the SB for Hexproof? The upside is there are other uses for the card (rats, tokens, blind obedience(!), etc.)

[Elricity]

He decided to just not worry about it. Also, mending touch or boros charm can both mean that you may only be smoking an enchantment or two.

It's also probably a bit too reactive and slow which generally dilutes the game plan. We're mostly on the plan of adjusting our threats to the shaping meta so that people's cards are blank (see 1 drops vs burn against blind obedience). That is, assuming, the meta keeps up with our hyperspeed and doesn't end up having 52 versions. I wouldn't mind trying it personally although I haven't thought enough about what would board out to board in for the bombs. It can be an awful topdeck though.

[Valdarith]

Ratchet Bomb is absolutely terrible for the Hexproof matchup. At best you hope to have it in your opener to slam it on turn two. Otherwise it's just way too slow.

[zenbitz]

I think you would take out chained to the rocks for ratchet bomb... but we basically have to drop it on turn 2 or have a bunch of skull cracks to stop witchstalker/courage. And if we have a bunch of skull cracks we probably win anyway. Even with Charm and Touch hexproof has a very bad UWx matchup.... so as long as burn doesn't drive supreme verdict out of the meta it should be OK.

[JohnnyfnB]

If hex proof becomes a deck that grows in popularity, then 4 Anger of the Gods are looking good in a side board. I personally wouldn't worry about it at this time, unless your local meta has a hex proof problem. In that case, Glaring Spotlights!

[montu]

He decided to just not worry about it. Also, mending touch or boros charm can both mean that you may only be smoking an enchantment or two.

It's also probably a bit too reactive and slow which generally dilutes the game plan. We're mostly on the plan of adjusting our threats to the shaping meta so that people's cards are blank (see 1 drops vs burn against blind obedience). That is, assuming, the meta keeps up with our hyperspeed and doesn't end up having 52 versions. I wouldn't mind trying it personally although I haven't thought enough about what would board out to board in for the bombs. It can be an awful topdeck though.

I doubt I'll put it in until after SCG Milwaukee . . . just thinking out loud as I consider various SB options.

nThe biggest conundrum is what's the best MB for a field of UWx Control, GRx Monsters, B/W Midrange, and R/W Burn.

I'm currently including Drinker and Dancer MB, which splits the middle with that meta (and is solid against Bx and Ux Devo). The problem is Drinker is such a liability against Mortars and burn in general, and Dancer is a dud in UWx Control.

In addition, Dancer and Searing Blood sucks bad with UWx Control, but is so good against Monsters and can pull some miracles against B/W Midrange, and of course smacks down many other matchups.

So, yeah, I really dunno.

[dauntless268]

Val and Elricity are right, Ratchet Bomb is terrible. To be honest, with 6 1-drops in our SB I wouldn't be all to worried about that matchup, as we can kill really fast - and sometimes all it takes is one well-timed Skullcrack to race them.

[JohnnyfnB]

He decided to just not worry about it. Also, mending touch or boros charm can both mean that you may only be smoking an enchantment or two.

It's also probably a bit too reactive and slow which generally dilutes the game plan. We're mostly on the plan of adjusting our threats to the shaping meta so that people's cards are blank (see 1 drops vs burn against blind obedience). That is, assuming, the meta keeps up with our hyperspeed and doesn't end up having 52 versions. I wouldn't mind trying it personally although I haven't thought enough about what would board out to board in for the bombs. It can be an
awful topdeck though.

I doubt I'll put it in until after SCG Milwaukee . . . just thinking out loud as I consider various SB options.

The biggest conundrum is what's the best MB for a field of UWx Control, GRx Monsters, B/W Midrange, and R/W Burn.

I'm currently including Drinker and Dancer MB, which splits the middle with that meta (and is solid against Bx and Ux Devo). The problem is Drinker is such a liability against Mortars and burn in general, and Dancer is a dud in UWx Control.

In addition, Dancer and Searing Blood sucks bad with UWx Control, but is so good against Monsters and can pull some miracles against B/W Midrange, and of course smacks down many other matchups.

So, yeah, I really dunno.

Try swapping out Searing Blood for Titan's Strength. What little testing I have done today has been positive. The deck seems faster. That probably is me, but would like to hear what other people have to say about that and test it
themselves.