[Primer] PyroRed

Jack · Postby **Jack** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:28 pm

So why do you want to pay 5 mana when all you need is just another threat?

Jack · Postby **Jack** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:33 pm

Why no Spike Jester?

I've never used the card in a Pyro shell before, and am winning without it. Am I missing out?

Mr. Metronome · Postby **Mr. Metronome** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:36 pm

Currently at 1-0 in the daily with the above list. I'll edit this post with match reports as the event goes on.

Round 1: Boros Burn.

Won game 1 pretty easily on the back of 2 Spike Jesters and a Chandra's Phoenix.

SB:
Out:
-4 Firedrinker Satyr -4 Dreadbore
In:
+2 Doom Blade +2 Ultimate Price +4 Skullcrack

Won game 2 pretty easily as well, opponent neglected to main phase a Warleader's Helix and it cost him the game. I saw 3 Young Pyromancers this game, made a total of ~6 elemental tokens. He saw 2 Chained to the Rocks for the first couple Pyros, the 3rd one went unanswered and killed him.

Round 2: Mono Black Devotion

Lost game 1 to a mull to 5, and double Merchant.

Out:
-4 Magma Jet -3 Shock
In:
+4 Skullcrack +2 Ultimate Price +1 Dark Betrayal

Won game 2 with turn 1 Cackler -> turn 2 Spike Jester, had a
Skullcrack ready if he tried to Merchant me. Opponent boarded in Duress, and left in Underworld (bad). Saw Bile Blight.

Screwed up by letting him Bile Blight 2 Cacklers, but he sided in Erebos and ended up killing me with it.... Tilting to say the least.
To what extent should I be holding back multiples of the same threat to play around Bile Blight? A single Cackler doesn't apply enough pressure by itself for me to feel comfortable.

Erebos is just stone wrong against me, no?

Aaaand lost round 3 to Mono Black Devotion.

This matchup actually feels really bad, not sure how that's possible. Maybe I'm playing it wrong? You're kinda between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Bile Blight, if you don't put 4 power on the board then they take over the game with a demon/gray merchant, if you do and they're the same creature, you get Blight'd. I just actually cannot beat multiple Garys, even remotely. Maybe I need to be boarding in Thoughtseize against them?

If I can't make THAT matchup
good, I can't play this in Phoenix.

Mr. Metronome · Postby **Mr. Metronome** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:38 pm

Why no Spike Jester?
I've never used the card in a Pyro shell before, and am winning without it. Am I missing out?

The card feels very similar to playing a turn 1 Delver of Secrets, and blind flipping it on turn 2. It's very, very good. It's hard to kill (in comparison to Ash Zealot at least) and by itself represents a formidable clock.

Turn 1 2 power, turn 2 3 power haste swing for 5 leaves control and mono black shaking in their boots.

It's worse than Ash against small creature strategies, but we have so much removal that we're already set up very well
against them, and it can trade up with any x/4 creature.

I've honestly won quite a chunk of games against creature decks by casting a turn 2 Jester and then a removal spell every turn for the rest of the game.

Jack · Postby **Jack** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:59 pm

I wish we could just play 8 Chandra's Phoenix. That would make me happier than I'd care to admit. The card is the key to pretty much every match-up.

Mr. Metronome · Postby **Mr. Metronome** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:00 am

Bleh, 1-2 in the daily. Updated my post.

Jedi_Knight · Postby **Jedi_Knight** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:17 am

Bile Blight is a real thing: if you manage to make it 1-1 it's basically a much worse Pharika's Cure. Even though I am speaking from a more top heavy perspective of Rb, I don't see multiple Garys being a problem: you are after all supposed to make them lose their creatures since you have basically all the answers you can have. If they manage to get their ball rolling, don't give up: I've had many MBC opps draw more than 5 cards from UWC (I remember the discussion in Baggro thread: they for some reason still leave it in against creature heavy red decks) yet still lose to a single Exava or a recuring Phoenix with a Skullcrack. Same would apply here for YP$ (that is if they don't manage to draw into Drown in Sorrow).

Bile Blight actually adds a verdict element to the deck I guess - you DO have to play around it.

Alex · Postby **Alex** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:54 am

So why do you want to pay 5 mana when all you need is just another threat?

There isn't anything better. You hit five mana pretty regularly, and you do want your "threat" to fly to be able to block opposing flying creatures. If I could play 8 Phoenix, trust me, I would.

zenbitz · Postby **zenbitz** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:28 am

I wish we could just play 8 Chandra's Phoenix. That would make me happier than I'd care to admit. The card is the key to pretty much every match-up.

You can! 4 of them are just named "shock".

PrimalBurn · Postby **PrimalBurn** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:40 am

Just destroyed a control player with the ol cackler followed by 3 spike jester hand

Wow I forgot how good spike jester was

stuffydollfan · Postby **stuffydollfan** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:47 am

I am onboard the thoughtseize train. Sometimes I don't have a dreadbore in hand to deal with problem creatures. Tyramet has been testing quite well and I think having him as a one of is OK. Against mono black I play it similar to U/w control, just don't over extend and you'll be fine.

Darth B8R · Postby **Darth B8R** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:11 am

-I'm taking a break from Searing Blood. It's so awesome when it connects, but Shock plays really well in this deck and gives me a variety of different plays at different points on the mana curve, plus it's never really dead, which is solid. Some kind of split might be ideal.
-I like how solid 22 land feels, 21 seems too tight; however, maybe 21 is fine, which would allow for a 3 Shock/2 Searing split. Might be nice. Going up to 23 and adding a Chandra sounds good too. Jeez this is tough.
-Ashley/Muta vs. Spikey is up in the air: I am looking forward to figuring out which might be better. Ash plays better with the spells but Spikey is better positioned vs. the major archetypes, so who knows.

[deck]
Creatures (21)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Spike Jester
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Tymaret, the Murder King

Spells (16)
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Dreadbore

nPlaneswalkers (1)
1 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (22)
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
4 Swamp
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Skullcrack
1 Act of Treason
1 Barrage of Expendables

[/deck]

Trying this sideboard. I gotta see if Act + Tymaret/Barrage is more than just cute, and I also want to find out if Tymaret/Barrage package is worthwhile vs. Bile Blight/D-sphere to fizzle the target and let me go all in with my dudes and stay aggressive, as well as giving extra ways to save Phoenix (suck it Last Breath).

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:30 am

Seems fine to me. I think you want some number of Searing Blood in the 75 though.

I would swap one Swamp for a Guildgate. I've had some double Swamp hands with only three in the deck and it feels terrible.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:10 pm

You know that feeling you get when a card pops into your head and you wonder why the hell you haven't been playing it because it's the perfect answer to one of the problems you've been having?

Hammer of Purphoros gave me that feeling.

More Esper players are hopping on the Fiendslayer Paladin train. That guy HATES x/3s. Burn is also on the rise, and this deck has issues in that match. Guess what makes x/3s, is great for when the game goes long, and has applications in multiple matchups? Yeah...

Darth B8R · Postby **Darth B8R** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:31 am

You know that feeling you get when a card pops into your head and you wonder why the hell you haven't been playing it because it's the perfect answer to one of the problems you've been having?

Hammer of Purphoros gave me that feeling.

More Esper players are hopping on the Fiendslayer Paladin train. That guy HATES x/3s. Burn is also on the rise, and this deck has issues in that match. Guess what makes x/3s, is great for when the game goes long, and has applications in multiple matchups? Yeah...

Dig it. 22 or 23 land to make more effective?

Jack · Postby **Jack** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:17 pm

If you're planning on bringing it in from the board, I'd probably run it + a Mutavault. Thing is, I'm finding it harder to make room for new things in my SB than in the main 60. And I'm playing 23 land main anyway.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:18 am

From my phone, so formatting sucks.

[deck]
4 rakdos cackler
4 firedrinker satyr
4 young pyromancer
4 spike jester
1 tymaret, the murder king
4 chandra's phoenix

4 thoughtseize
3 shock
4 magma jet
4 lightning strike
3 dreadbore

4 blood crypt
4 temple of malice
1 rakdos guildgate
2 swamp
10 mountain

1 shock
3 duress
1 ultimate price
2 doom blade
1 dreadbore
3 madcap skills
4 skullcrack
[/deck]

Thoughtseize is too good not to run. Gives us another 1cmc spell to chain off Pyromancer and removes anything from the hand. It's the best card in Standard so why not run it? The only time we don't like the card is vs burn, and we have Duress to bring in for that match, though I would still keep 1-2 Thoughtseize in postboard.

I dropped Searing Blood. When it's good it's very good but sometimes it's very bad like against Esper and Hexproof. It's also a bit mana
intensive with the RR cost and now that we added the maindeck Thoughtseize we need to hedge our mana requirements a bit.

Darth B8R · Postby **Darth B8R** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:11 am

Interesting post Val, because I was just brainstorming in the shower yesterday about lists with Thoughtseize main. I have been bringing it in against various decks and it has been awesome. I'm a sucker for dirt cheap spells and synergy. Check and check. I'm feeling kind of jealous of the Boros Burn's success and the spotlight it has grabbed, and it has made me want to find more compelling reasons for black instead of white. This could be a step forward in that cause if it proves successful through testing!

Can you elaborate on the Madcap in the side? GR monsters? Mono-Blue?

BTW I like +1 Dreadbore -1 Thoughtseize main cuz I still value the 'bore higher. This is a build where I would be okay with 21 land--no 4 drops, though I wonder how effective Tymaret can be when it's hard to have 2 open. Shoot, maybe 4 Dbore 4 Tseize main. -1 Madcap +1 Tymaret sideboard? Hmm.

Alex · Postby **Alex** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:52 pm

Got wrecked by Guttler this weekend at the open. Granted, we were both 1-3 at the time so that doesn't say much about the deck.

He didn't even get to experience the beats that were Pyrewild Shaman. (Which was actually an amazing card for me in the Open Trial I played in the Tuesday prior.)

In my defense, I played against RW burn 3 rounds in a row, which is apparently a miserable matchup. They're drawing into a lot more action than you since you are basically the same deck with less burn and more terrors. Blind Obedience is also an absolute beating.

I'm thinking about abandoning the deck for BR Devotion. I like Rakdos's Return as a card, and after talking with Ali and Jabberwocky I think I am going to get on that train.

Alex · Postby **Alex** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:57 pm

Also James you'll be happy to know that when Alex and I got to the Open on Saturday, every card in your 75 was completely sold out at the booths.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:30 pm

Madcap is for the hexproof matchup. We just try to race them and it's a direct replacement for the three Dreadbore. The shocks come out for Duress.

Tyrael · Postby **Tyrael** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:33 pm

I don't understand not even running a few copies of Searing Blood in the board. You're running 19 red sources, the mana shouldn't be a problem at all. I can tell you I've killed control players with it more than once (targeting Elspeth tokens woo!)

Valdarith, your list also seems a bit weak vs G/R - Jund monsters, have you tested the deck yet vs that archetype?

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:48 pm

I haven't tested the new deck at all. New baby on top of the two toddlers I already have makes finding time difficult. The deck ought to be strong against Monsters though (coming from someone who actually plays Monsters in paper).

The problem with Searing Blood in the board is that the terrors in its place are more flexible and better in the midrange matches. Searing Blood is great against burn. Against aggro we're playing control so the three extra damage isn't usually as big a factor.

I think aggro decks are the worst kind of deck to face here, and to be honest Searing Blood wouldn't make that matchup any better. I'd want a higher impact card than Searing Blood like Hammer of Purphoros instead.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:54 pm

Got wrecked by Guttler this weekend at the open. Granted, we were both 1-3 at the time so that doesn't say much about the deck. He didn't even get to experience the beats that were Pyrewild Shaman. (Which was actually an amazing card for me in the Open Trial I played in the Tuesday prior.)

In my defense, I played against RW burn 3 rounds in a row, which is apparently a miserable matchup. They're drawing into a lot more action than you since you are basically the same deck with less burn and more terrors. Blind Obedience is also an absolute beating.

I'm thinking about abandoning the deck for BR Devotion. I like Rakdos's Return as a card, and after talking with Ali and
Jabberwocky I think I am going to get on that train.

Yeah Burn is a really bad matchup, so as long as it increases in popularity I wouldn't recommend this archetype.

I think BR Devotion is fine. Rakdos's Return is criminally underplayed.

Alex · Postby **Alex** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:49 pm

I knew there was going to be burn, I just didn't think there would be THAT much. We had a friend there playing UB control (and it was not even a good list) and he was 5-0 at one point because all he played against was Esper. I played RW burn three rounds in a row, then I played mono black aggro for a win, then Guttler who was playing Pyroblack as well.

I dropped after losing in round 5, I was mostly playing still because my friends were still playing, but hunger prevailed. :\

Tyrael · Postby **Tyrael** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:50 pm

Yea I'm playing UB control too atm to counter the control meta at my FNM

@Vald so this deck is bad against Burn AND general aggro decks? That's a pretty big portion of the current meta...

Alex · Postby **Alex** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:27 pm

It isn't bad against aggro decks, you just have to play the Young Pyromancer build. Pyromancer takes aggro decks to the corner of Valuetown and Getfuckedville.

Tyrael · Postby **Tyrael** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:35 pm

Ah, I thought Val's remark about aggro being 'the worst kind of deck to face' meant it was a bad matchup

my bad then

Alex · Postby **Alex** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:59 pm

It probably is pretty rough for the aggressive version of Pyro, but my version is happy to play against aggro decks. The nice thing about the deck is that it is pretty flexible and since Young Pyromancer is such a flexibly powerful card, you almost always have a way to fix matchups.

Except burn, the only thing you can really do to beat them is to be them.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:39 pm

Yea I'm playing UB control too atm to counter the control meta at my FNM

@Vald so this deck is bad against Burn AND general aggro decks? That's a pretty big portion of the current meta...

I should rephrase.

The deck is suboptimal against red-based aggro decks in game one. Black and white aggro are pretty much a cakewalk, but BTE decks can be a real pain to deal with since they can develop their board so quickly. The sideboard doesn't have any grindy card choices that I'm used to having in my other red decks so my typical postboard control strategy against aggro decks is much weaker than I'm used to, so take that for what it's worth.

Tyrael · Postby **Tyrael** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:15 pm

Is racing out of the question G1 if you're on the play? Cackler into Jester is a pretty fast clock

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:55 pm

Z tried it in the mirror, liked it for a minute, and then dropped it.

You kinda have to try but I don't think it'll work.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:11 am

Racing is fine on the play. It's what the deck is designed to do g1 so why not do what you do best?

TheCleaner · Postby **TheCleaner** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:02 pm

Yo guys, as my Foundry-source isn't coming to FNM, i am building a MonoR Pyro Variant right now. Not sure how many 1 drops i want, but i tend to 10, as i play no taplands and only 2 vaults. Want to use that as an advantage. Will post list soon.

Edit1: First draft:
[deck]
Creatures
2 foundry street denizen
4 rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker satyr
4 ash zealot
4 young pyromancer
4 chandras phoenix
Spells
4 shock
4 lightning strike
4 magma jet
2 searing blood
Walkers
2 chandra pyromaster
lands
2 mutavault
20 mountain [/deck]

Not sure if i want to go to 21 lands. Sideboard isn't build yet. Unsure if i should swap the pyromancers for rakdos shred freaks due to not soo many instants, but i want to be able to fit the Control role, you know...
May add another Mutavault, if i get one.
What do you think?

Alex · Postby **Alex** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:57 pm

Four Mutavaults for sure.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:34 pm

Four Mutavaults, 18 Mountain, 3/3 split of Shock and Searing Blood.

TheCleaner · Postby **TheCleaner** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:21 pm

Alright, got all the 4 Vaults! (: But i don't really know if thats one to much with Zealots and SearingBloods. What do you guys think about that?
Val, I'm sorry, but i gonna play 4 Shocks. They are one mana cheaper(!), and with 4 Vaults i'm really scared of not being able to cast them quickly enough.
Now i built the maindeck, i need a sideboard (no shit).
Well, not really sure what to put in.
4 Skullcrack
4 Mortars
That is set. What else? More searing blood? Act of treason? Peak eruption? Not that familiar with Pyrored anymore...

EDIT: Not sure if i want to overrun or control Gr... would side in Madcap Skills and Goblin Shortcutters/Firefiststrikers. Help me!

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:20 pm

I'm not really a fan of Foundry Street Denizen in a deck like this. He prefers to be in faster lists with Burning-Tree Emissary, and he pushes you to play your burn spells during your main phase when you have Young Pyromancer out. Plus I'd rather spend those two spots on higher impact cards.

Searing Blood on 18 red sources is just fine. It's a very high impact card, especially in mono red where you don't have access to terrors like Chained to the Rocks or Dreadbore. Suiciding your guy into a fatty and finishing with Searing Blood doesn't feel so bad compared to before where you had to two-for-one yourself with a burn spell.

[deck]
Creatures (22)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix

Spells (14)
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Searing Blood

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (22)
4 Mutavault
18
Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Searing Blood
4 Skullcrack
4 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Act of Treason
2 Fated Conflagration
[/deck]

rcwraspy · Postby **rcwraspy** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:24 pm

After playing a lot of burn online and a few paper tournaments I've realized that it's not really my cup of tea. So I'm going back to the 20/20/20 builds that I've had a lot of success with, this time splashing black instead of white. Here's what I'm bringing to a local TCG Silver event tomorrow. Prize for first place is a Beta Black Lotus.

[deck]
Creature (24)
4x Firedrinker Satyr
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Ash Zealot
4x Spike Jester
3x Young Pyromancer
4x Chandra's Phoenix
1x Stormbreath Dragon

Sorcery (3)
3x Dreadbore

Instant (12)
4x Shock
3x Lightning Strike
4x Magma Jet
1x Ultimate Price

Land (21)
4x Blood Crypt
10x Mountain
1x Rakdos Guildgate
2x Swamp
4x Temple of Malice

Sideboard (15)
4x Boros Reckoner
2x Dark Betrayal
2x Doom Blade
4x Duress
3x Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]

I know people are high on Searing Blood but honestly I'm not. I think it's replaced in this list by
creatures like Spike Jester, which functions as either half of the card depending on blocks. The deck also has an incredibly fast goldfish for the meta. Turn 4 regularly, otherwise 5. I know your opponent will not let your goldfish be the reality most of the time, but I still think it's important that an aggro deck have fast goldfish hands. Free wins are also a thing sometimes, and this list can put UW/x too far behind before they can even cast Verdict.

I'm also foregoing Chandra herself here. I'm not sure if that's correct, and perhaps the 1x Dragon should be 1x Chandra, but I'll have her along with me if I want to make a last-minute switch.

My thoughts on sideboarding:

VS. G/R/x Monsters
Out: 4x Magma Jet, 4x Firedrinker Satyr, 1x Ash Zealot
In: 4x Boros Reckoner, 3x Mizzium Mortars, 2x Doom Blade

VS. Mono Black Devotion
Out: 4x Shock, 4x Magma Jet (If bringing in Mortars, otherwise 1), 1x Ash Zealot
In: 2x Dark Betrayal, 3x Mizzium Mortars (if B/W), 4x Duress

VS. Mono Blue
Devotion
Out: 4x Firedrinker Satyr, 1x Ash Zealot
In: 3x Mizzium Mortars, 2x Doom Blade

VS. UW/x Control
Out: 4x Shock, 3x Magma Jet
In: 4x Duress, 3x Mizzium Mortars

VS. Burn
Out: 4x Firedrinker Satyr, 3x Dreadbore, 1x Ultimate Price
In: 4x Boros Reckoner, 4x Duress

I'm not positive Reckoner is right against Burn, but it certainly makes their burn less effective and takes Chained away from our own Phoenixes.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:24 am

On 21 land the Dragon should definitely be Chandra instead. I also am not fond of Boros Reckoner because your match against the decks you'd bring him in is already taken care of by terrors with the exception of red mirrors.

Dies to Removal

[Primer] PyroRed

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