[Primer] PyroRed

[Darth B8R]

Decent run at FNM, 2nd place with the list I posted (4-1). Only lost to GR monsters who played his singleton Primeval Bounty in both games 2 and 3 for the win (G3 he kept a 1-lander on the draw with an elf that got burned immediately, peeled 5 lands and got there). LOL WTF.

Througout the night (admittedly in limited action), I learned that:
A) Thoughtseize/Skullcrack vs. control was good enough to make it a breeze.
B) Mizzium mortars in the board locks up BW midrange without a sweat (the most played archetype in my paper meta)
C) Tymaret was OK, but nothing special (needs more testing, might be relegated to the board).
D) Chandra was awesome, but 1 might be enough. (Drew 2 in a couple of games and wasn't the greatest feeling)
E) Ash Zealot is really solid, but Spike Jester, though more fragile, is what I want in this meta.
F) Shock: semi-missed. I could have burned an elf with a Shock twice where Searing Blood was
a turn slower (though still awesome!).
E) Siding out all the 1-drops (with 8 terminates coming in) and playing control vs. RGx Monsters is possible, but feels difficult. I think I would rather keep in Firedrinker/Spike Jester and put some early pressure and try to finish the deal with burn/Phoenix.

After pondering this last point and the matchup in general, I had a thought. This sounds crazy but I think I'm gonna cut Cacklers and pack Skullcracks main deck. I feel it is only very slightly worse vs. UWx control (maybe) but better in all my major match ups. It is worse for my curve, but let's see:

First sketch-
[deck]
Creatures (16)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Spike Jester
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (21)
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Searing Blood
3 Dreadbore
4 Skullcrack

Planeswalkers (1)
1 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (22)
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
3 Swamp
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
3
Mizzium Mortars
4 Open

[/deck]

Thoughts on main deck Crack? You could say my approach is similar to Boros burn, but with Firedrinkers/Pyromancers/+1 Chandra main instead of Boros Charm/Warleader's Helix/Mutavault/+1 land. Hmm...

[Link]

Definitely keep jester vs RGx

Definitely dont take out cacklers for skullcracks. Youre not a strict burn deck. Cackler+removal does way more than crack. Especially if people are playong b/w which you NEED to go under

1.drop into spike jester needs to be maximized


also id cut 1 Searing blood for the 2nd Chandra. Shes just really key to the archetype

[Darth B8R]

Interesting, thanks.
[deck]
Creatures (20)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Spike Jester
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (16)
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Searing Blood
3 Dreadbore


Planeswalkers (2)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (22)
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
3 Swamp
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Skullcrack

[/deck]

Admittedly, feels more solid at first glance. I was just brainstorming I guess.

[Link]

tbh I think searing blood competes too much with magma jet LS and dbore. Nuwens experience is that the scry does a lot more than 3 dmg with no potential targets on a given turn


its worse than shock as youve seen


So cut 2 more for a 23rd land for 4th dbore/exava sexy lady. try it out

def put some time in on cockatrice though. it can be a hard deck to theory craft with because it can play out as blitz, tempo, control, or grindy just depending on the situation not even MU specific

[Valdarith]

I've found the opposite regarding Searing Blood. It's often much better than Shock because you can suicide your guys into a fatty and finish it off with Searing Blood while still getting in damage, making it effectively a 1 for 1 where Shock would be a 2 for 1. I am at the point where I don't want all four main, and there should be some split of Shock and blood main.

The list above is very close to where I am.

[Darth B8R]

Interesting debate. Seems like the classic power vs. consistency issue.

Fate, could you extoll the virtues of Exava for me? I haven't played with this card yet and it looks powerful just on raw stats, but I was wondering how it performs in the current meta vs. the major archetypes.

[Valdarith]

Exava beats a lot of stuff heads up. Only real weakness is to Blood Baron. BBoV is actually a great reason to be running Searing Blood. It also becomes a huge beating when running first strikers. It may be correct to abandon YP$ altogether for Ash Zealot and Exava. It lines up more favorably against Esper postboard since Fiendslayer Paladin is a thing. Also decent vs GR and BW midrange, though you lose some resistance to Desecration Demon.

[Darth B8R]

I had that thought too, but with the increasing numbers of blind obedience in sideboards right now, I shied away from that ultra hasty approach.

If I did go with the Ashley and Exava belly-rubbin aggro, I would probably consider going Shock + Searing Blood and drop the Jet.

[Valdarith]

It's weird because as I take a look at mtgtop8.com I see one list running Fiendslayer in the board and it's a one of. Everyone else is on the BBoV train which is easier for us to deal with. Maybe I'm unlucky facing everyone with Fiendslayers?

[zemanjaski]

So, I have resisted jumping in and telling people they're wrong, but I am going to have to.

Hand disruption does not need to be cast on curve. In fact, it is better not cast on curve.

Why? Because when you're bringing it in, you only care about a couple of cards: Jace or Supreme Verdict for example. Sure, hitting a Rev is nice, but that's not the card that beats this deck. The long you can wait, the more likely you are to hit what you want to hit; it also means that they have less time to find a replacement or devise a new strategy; additionally, advancing your board first is the priority; picking apart their hand only delays them, so you need to have a clock on them for it to be relevant.

In terms of deck construction, the first point that needs to be discussed is whether the better configuration right now is Ash Zealot + Mutavault OR Spike Jester by itself. You guys know the cards better
than me, so discuss.

Beyond that, I can't understand why everyone doesn't have 1x Tymaret (just as a value card it is amazing) and 4x Dreadbore (best removal spell in standard). Yes, it doesn't hit master of waves but you already have a 2-mana master of waves for that matchup and Dreadbore puts them off devotion so badly you just kill them.

Anyway, that's my immediate observation. I might eve play this deck, it seems extremely well positioned right now.

[DXI-Edge]

Thats what me and Mr. Metronome are coming to the conclusion to.

Zeman why play UW Delver without FLIPPED DELVER (Spike Jester)

[zemanjaski]

Well, not needing turn 2 black every game means you can run 2 Mutavault; that's the main argument. A secondary argument would be that Ash Zealot has more synergy with the spell package.

[Mr. Metronome]

I've really enjoyed how against aggro I play turn 1 one drop, turn 2 searing blood your guy and attack to put you to 15 and against control cast spike jester in place of searing blood to put them to 15. Ash Zealot dies to more of the post board removal against the meta too, Last Breath, Doom Blade, Ultimate Price, etc.

Thank you for so succinctly summing up why Thoughtseize is still good here.

This is a frontrunner for me to play in GP Phoenix if I make it down. The bonus? I have 2 byes, so all the other 2 bye players thinking they're safe from aggro will have their guard down >:)

[zemanjaski]

I approve of that simley >:)

[Darth B8R]

I agree on principle with the 1 Tymaret for value, but it feels like one really wants 23 land so that it is easier to hold up mana for him. 23 also supports Chandra. The squeeze is then in the spell slots, there's only 14. 4 Jets, 4 Strikes, 4 Dreadbores leaves 2 more--Searing Blood or Shock. I suppose one could shave a Cackler or 2 to make space. Maybe -1 Cackler and then 3 Searing Blood, with no Shocks (or vice versa)

[stuffydollfan]

I'm really divided here. On the one hand Spike jester is really beast. The deck here has the tools to support him to take him all the way. Zealot Can attack into pretty much anything and live to tell about it. There has been some times when i wish i have Zealot instead of Jester mainly vs G/w Voice of Resurgence and crap.

[Alex]

I would rather that too, Alex, but we aren't playing white so we don't have those tools available. We have to live with Thoughtseize and risk not casting it until t3 or t4.

Or we can just go on the plan of auto losing to Unflinching Courage and Fiendslayer Paladin.

I was on the no Duress/Thoughtseize train for awhile so take that for what it's worth. If Fiendslayer Paladin and Hexproof weren't a thing I wouldn't run it.

You can't beat every matchup. I'd much prefer to concede that I won't be able to beat one fringe deck than dilute my sideboard for it. We have it in our testing pool and I'm aware it is unwinnable, but it doesn't need to be because the amount of players playing it here is approximately zero.

[zemanjaski]

Ignore it is my approach too.

[Alex]

Every time the deck makes top8 in any event, Jabberwocky sends me facebook messages and text messages telling me "I told you the deck is amazing!"

I'm still not convinced. Naya Hexproof is not a real deck.

[zemanjaski]

It's not remotely real.

[Valdarith]

Well my luck is terrible because of the five Esper control decks I faced over two days, I saw Fiendslayer Paladin from four of them. The mtgtop8.com lists have one as a one of in the most recent online lists. They are running BBoV instead.

So just ignore the fact that my luck is terrible and chalk it up to variance?

The real question is whether I can better devote the three slots in the board to other spells that improve all my other matchups significantly.

[Valdarith]

As for Spike Jester vs Ash Zealot the former is better positioned by itself. Dodges Last Breath, attacks through Caryatid, and deals more damage over time. That said I really like the synergy with Ash Zealot and Searing Blood, and she stands up to Fiendslayer Paladin and BBoV pretty well. Running Ash Zealot would allow us to go down a black source and add a couple of Mutavault. It's not a straightforward decision.

[Valdarith]

[deck]
Creatures (21)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (16)
2 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Searing Blood
4 Dreadbore

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (21)
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
1 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Swamp
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Shock
2 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
4 Skullcrack
2 Searing Blood
3 open
[/deck]

This is where I'm at currently. The only thing I'm not sure about is Chandra. I've been playing without her and doing well. The only time I've really wanted her was vs Fiendslayer Paladin, as recursion on a stick for Chandra's Phoenix, or red mirrors. Running Chandra gives me two fewer spells for Young Pyromancer and her ultimate is less reliable since I'm running 10 maindeck burn spells (12 if my opponent has a creature on the board, but it needs to
be >2 toughness to get good value).

I've been liking Duress lately against control. In most decks I'd steer clear of it but here the cheap interaction is great, and the hand information is vital to my decision making. I've won some games by ripping Last Breath on my turn three with opponent playing two scrylands so he can't eat my Phoenix. I've won others by nabbing the Verdict on my turn four that they've been relying on to clear my board, allowing me to commit more guys to the field without worry. Not hitting Fiendslayer Paladin from Esper has been an issue for me, but again, I could just be getting unlucky by hitting all the opponents that still play that card in their board instead of the top players that have BBoV instead. The problem right now is that I see no room to board it in with the way the deck is currently configured since the SB strat would be -2 Shock, -2 Searing Blood, +4 Skullcrack. There's nothing else I'd really want to cut for three Duress. Of course, there's the other
possibility that Duress is actually better than Skullcrack in the matchup, which I haven't actually considered until I just thought about it.

I swapped one Swamp for a guildgate because I've been drawing hands with double Swamp and no red source and I want to cut down on that. I also like having the 19th red source for early Searing Bloods or even Ash Zealot if the meta calls for us to move in that direction.

So, the big questions:

1) Chandra, Pyromaster or two more of Shock/Searing Blood in the main?
2) Duress, Skullcrack, or both for control?

[Valdarith]

Since some people are more visual thinkers, option 2:

[deck]
Creatures (21)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (18)
3 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
3 Searing Blood
4 Dreadbore

Lands (21)
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
1 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Swamp
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
2 Dark Betrayal
1 Shock
2 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
4 Skullcrack
1 Searing Blood
[/deck]

[Valdarith]

Despite having just repurchased two Chandras on MODO I'm favoring option two. The 75 just looks a lot more elegant to me.

[LP, of the Fires]

Ya'll nigga's better start putting thoughtseizes into your black decks.

[Valdarith]

I've really only been bringing in Duress against control and Naya Hexproof. Alex and Zem keep saying to ignore Fiendslayer Paladin, so with that in mind Duress is the better option. Do you think they are wrong?

[Aodh]

Devour Flesh / Far // Away deal with Fiendslayer Paladins and Blood Barons of Vizkopa out of Esper and the Naya Hexproof creatures.

[Valdarith]

If I'm going to run anything for those it's going to be Thoughtseize. Devour Flesh and Far / Away are too reactive and not flexible enough for other matchups.

[Mr. Metronome]

I've been liking Mizzium Mortars in the board. Thoughtseize over duress has also over performed, it nabs BBV and Grey out of black decks. I might try to find a plan that let's me board in 4.

Has Tymaret actually been good?

[Valdarith]

I don't like Mizzium Mortars because you only bring it in to beat BBoV and our burn suite already does that.

Tymaret as a one-of has been outright insane. He's won me a lot of games since I started playing PyroBlack. The synergy with Phoenix and Pyromancer is crazy. I've been able to close out a lot of games that were otherwise stalemates simply by the reach he provides.

[Mr. Metronome]

I'm sold, I'll try him out. Mortars is still a fine removal spell against gw/gr, and bw has been a sketchy matchup for me. How do you currently sideboard vs them?

[Jack]

I've tried Tymaret before in place of one of the dragons in Alex's list from a few weeks ago. He did work, but didn't seem to operate at his finest there. He'll probably be better here with more black sources and less Mutavaults.

I don't think any of these decks want SBD in the main. Most decks seem to be able to answer him before he steals the game.

[Alex]

I don't think any of these decks want SBD in the main. Most decks seem to be able to answer him before he steals the game.

I observed the exact opposite of this here in Charlotte. The meta here is pretty much exclusively RG Monsters and Mono Black, both of which Mouthbreather stomps all over. I know RG plays a lot of Mizzium Mortars in the main, but you have a lot of things they have to Mortars before the Dragon ever comes down, so it seems pretty unlikely that they'll always "have it." Like, they also have to answer Young Pyromancer or else most of their creatures get perpetually chumped.

I don't like Stormbreath if the meta shifts heavily towards control decks, but right
now I'm not seeing that locally. I would play Ash Zealot or Satyr Nyx-Smith instead if that were the way things shook down.

[Mr. Metronome]

I don't even slightly understand the logic of saying that Stormbreath Dragon stomps on Mono Black, who runs Hero's Downfall, Desecration Demon, and Doom Blade/Ultimate Price, but is bad against UWx Control decks who run Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict (sorcery speed and forces them to tap out so you can resolve dragon), and Azorius Charm.

[Darth B8R]

I don't like Mizzium Mortars because you only bring it in to beat BBoV and our burn suite already does that.

That's interesting. In my local paper meta, BW is so rampant that putting 4 Mortars in the board has literally turned that matchup into a bye, so I can't resist doing so; however, I am curious to see how effective it can be to just try to fight BBoV with our normal burn package. This would definitely open up the sideboard a bit. I have an unhealthy love for Mortars, and I think it is an excellent spell, but I try to keep an open mind about how to fight certain cards and strategies.

[Jack]

[deck]4 Young Pyromancer
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

2 Mutavault
10 Mountain
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Rakdos Guildgate

4 Magma Jet
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Dreadbore
4 Lightning Strike
2 Shock
3 Searing Blood

Side
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Skullcrack
3 Ultimate Price
3 Thoughtseize
[/deck]

Maybe? It has a bit more bad cards against a lot of decks than I'd like (especially against control), but otherwise, it seems to be capable of doing everything that I want this deck to do.

[Jack]

Hammer of Purphoros is a card that I'd also like to test.

[Mr. Metronome]

Why no Spike Jester?

[Alex]

I don't even slightly understand the logic of saying that Stormbreath Dragon stomps on Mono Black, who runs Hero's Downfall, Desecration Demon, and Doom Blade/Ultimate Price, but is bad against UWx Control decks who run Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict (sorcery speed and forces them to tap out so you can resolve dragon), and Azorius Charm.

Because in a deck like this you want to be playing things that demand an immediate answer.

You need Dragon against mono black because they only have so many answers to your questions. Phoenix is insane against them, and you can bait most of their removal by just clubbing them with birds. Sometimes they'll have the reactive card for Dragon, but other times they'll be too low for it to matter. You just
want higher threat density against them, and Dragon is just better than Chandra, which is why I took the old list and played 3 Dragons instead of 3 Chandra.

Usually against them if they can't keep Desecration Demon alive they lose the game. It honestly does come down to just that.