[Primer] Boros Burn

rcwraspy · Postby **rcwraspy** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:07 pm

Just accept Blind Obedience as a part of life, don't sideboard reactive cards

If the only card on the radar was BlOb, I'd definitely agree.

But when you add D-Sphere, Blood Baron, Obzedat, some Gods and some enchantment creatures you start wondering if you should bring in something that can catch as many of them as possible.

That said, I think this deck is in a good spot when making opponents use 2-for-1 cards to only get a 1-for-1. Only 1 Phoenix out there to nab with either DSphere or Bile Blight, for instance (though the last one doesn't hurt too much).

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:12 pm

What hits all those things?

rcwraspy · Postby **rcwraspy** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:17 pm

I said "as many of them as possible". If 1 card hit them all I think everybody would just be running it.

Kaitscralt · Postby **Kaitscralt** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:23 pm

if only

BrainsickHater · Postby **BrainsickHater** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:51 pm

What are people's sideboard plans against Mono-Black? I'm finding there aren't any super stellar cards to bring in and we mostly have to rely on tight play to win the match.

Also, I'm thinking of going off the Viashino plan because of Blind Obedience, so I'm really trying to get ideas for SB plans that don't involve Viashino.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:57 pm

Viashino is still one of our best options against decks like MonoB and control. Against black, best options are just the rest of the chains, BlOb, and Firstblade. I used to like Firedancer against them but my local opponents have wised up to that plan and kill it on sight.

BrainsickHater · Postby **BrainsickHater** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:10 pm

What's the no-creature plan that was floating around for a while? I assume we don't bring in Viashino if we're on the no-creature plan.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:11 pm

The no-creature plan was attempted but ended up being a generally worse option due to a lack of repeating damage sources.

Aodh · Postby **Aodh** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:30 pm

No, I don't think it was attempted, at least not by many. It was immediately discarded because it seems like it'd be bad without repeatable damage source. These are two entirely different things. I played the deck for a long while one day to great success. Can definitely be done, and does have its merits. It does have a much higher (than an already high) learning curve, however.

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:34 pm

I feel like my post got pushed to the wayside but Im gonna bring it up again:

Young Pyromancer over Viashino Firstblade. Why?

1) MUCH better vs. Blind Obedience
2) Another card to have an edge in the ever increasing mirror
3) Better vs. Black/Black-White than Firstblade
4) Overall stronger card

BrainsickHater · Postby **BrainsickHater** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:43 pm

I'll try young pyro. He seems good.

If we're on the YP plan, I think we keep in Zealots. Agree?

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:08 pm

YP is just for the board to compensate for the fact that a) The mirror is getting stronger, b) Firstblade isnt nearly as good against control decks with Blind Obedience and c) its better vs. Black decks

Ash Zealot is too good to cut

DixieFlatline · Postby **DixieFlatline** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:30 pm

YP is just for the board to compensate for the fact that a) The mirror is getting stronger

The mirror is everywhere. In the last IQ I played, I went up against two mirrors in a six round tournament. In both matches my opponents and I both brought in BlOb and the games just felt like a coin flip. I'm not sure if YP is the correct answer but if you're playing in an LGS meta where this deck is getting popular, I agree that some extra SB tech for the mirror would be a great addition.

I feel like Last Breath does a better job controlling the board in the mirror than Young Pyromancer but I still don't think it's that great. Seems like building card advantage is more desirable than controlling the board in the mirror. Chandra, Pyromaster?

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:42 pm

I don't hate Chandra in the mirror. If it eats two burn spells I'm happy with that trade. You obviously wouldn't run her out with a Phoenix or Mutavault on the opposite side of the table and no mana available.

dauntless268 · Postby **dauntless268** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:46 pm

I've considered Chandra for the Mirror as well, because the card also has some use vs. MonoBkack and the control decks. Could be too slow, though, and we have to tap out. Last Breath? Really?? Better cards for the mirror are Wild Ricochet and Peak Eruption, but they are very narrow. That said, Peak Eruption might have some value against GR, too, in combination with Satyr Firedancer.

dauntless268 · Postby **dauntless268** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:52 pm

On the Mono Black Matchup - I feel there's a "critical mass" of either Burn or Creatures. If you play creatures you must be able to overload their removal, otherwise you just end up with a few useless burn spells. I wonder if the best is a switch between the two extremes g2/g3: Try burn heavy g2, then side in all creatures g3 (if there is one)?

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:11 pm

Viashino is good vs black if they make the switch back to NVS. As long as lifebane is MD and still in postboard, its significantly weaker (on the draw atleast).

Aodh · Postby **Aodh** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:14 pm

Don't throw out the idea of Last Breath just because it gives them life. It seems counterintuitive, but more exile effects for opposing Chandra's Phoenixes might be very useful. Not to mention, it's another answer to Mutavault and can be used to gain yourself 4 life in a pinch. I'm not supporting the idea, necessarily, but don't dismiss ideas simply because they're counterintuitive--that's a poor way to assess cards. Think of the versatility and application each card discussed may have. Last Breath also kills Courser of Kruphix, Master of Waves, etc.

Aodh · Postby **Aodh** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:15 pm

They better not be leaving in LBZ postboard. Providing us with Searing Blood targets is a nonbo.

zenbitz · Postby **zenbitz** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:23 pm

interestingly I faced both MBD and Esper in paper funsies yesterday. Beat MBD 2-1 (losing when I helixed a spectre instead of a rat, drew no burn), basically split 1-1 with esper (I didn't actually LOSE the 2nd game but I was going to due to T2 BlOB and me with hand full of hasty beats). I guess if control brings in BlOB game 2 we can take out the firstblades/zealots? Just go 4x FDS 4x Pheonix 2x Mortars/Conflagration? Bring back in the shocks?

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:33 pm

They better not be leaving in LBZ postboard. Providing us with Searing Blood targets is a nonbo.

people keep saying this. But they would rather take 3, then take 4 from firstblade AND have to deal with a threat after. Plus they are afraid of spark trooper. It's not getting sided out as much as we think it should be.

Aodh · Postby **Aodh** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:39 pm

Well, that sucks. Haha. We can't board appropriately because they counterboard in a way that is fundamentally wrong. LOL. It sucks when your deck is bad because other players are bad and can just get you. Lol.

DixieFlatline · Postby **DixieFlatline** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:02 pm

I don't hate Chandra in the mirror. If it eats two burn spells I'm happy with that trade. You obviously wouldn't run her out with a Phoenix or Mutavault on the opposite side of the table and no mana available.

Absolutely. I've found myself overly concerned about Plainswalkers, mainly Domri, and waste too much burn getting them off the board. They don't have Domri but I'm stuck top decking - horrible position to be in for the burn player. Baiting out two - or even three - burn spells if your opponent overreacts to a plainswalker seems great - and that's just the worst case scenario of the card being burned off the board immediately after it's played.

Jonnymagic · Postby **Jonnymagic** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:20 pm

BO is the best card in the mirror, wild ricochet the second best. I have ricocheted a total of 5 helix's in the mirror, and you just win at that point. I still have not lost a mirror match, and I'm up to 23 matches against it. I have played against people I know are good pilots of it too, but thankfully the majority of people have no idea how to play the deck properly, let alone play the mirror properly. I have lost games mind you, but never the match. You will get land screwed, but rarely is flooding a bad thing in the mirror because you want to leave a lot of open mana at all times.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:28 pm

I have never lost a mirror either, but the nature of the matchup when it increases in popularity is troublesome. Also, if the SCG takes hold, reckoner is a BEATING in the matchup.
New Tech for multiple matchups: Hold at Bay

Toddington · Postby **Toddington** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:43 pm

@Jonnymagic

What list are you on, and how does your Sideboard look with all these sweet Wild Ricochets and Wear//Tears you keep telling us about?

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:47 pm

I don't hate Chandra in the mirror. If it eats two burn spells I'm happy with that trade. You obviously wouldn't run her out with a Phoenix or Mutavault on the opposite side of the table and no mana available.
Absolutely. I've found myself overly concerned about Plainswalkers, mainly Domri, and waste too much burn getting them off the board. They don't have Domri but I'm stuck top decking - horrible position to be in for the burn player. Baiting out two - or even three - burn spells if your opponent overreacts to a plainswalker seems great - and that's just the worst case
scenario of the card being burned off the board immediately after it's played.

The most skill testing part of this deck and most other red decks in the current format is knowing when to deal with planeswalkers and when to ignore them. I suspect many players new to this deck will lose a lot of games because they paid too much attention to Jace or Domri when it wasn't necessary. This particular red deck is probably the most unforgiving when it comes to thism

Jonnymagic · Postby **Jonnymagic** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:52 pm

I play the main list with a few changes -- 1 SBD, 2 chains, 2 shock main, 23 land (3 guildgate 3 muta) -- S/b 2 chains, 3 firedancer, 2 wear/tear, 2 fated conflag, 1 wild ricochet, 2 BO, 3 viashino. I tried to pack hate for the decks worst matchups, and lose a few win % points to control. I'm still over 60% against esper and u/w despite not having the 1 drop, although I very much miss him against them.

DixieFlatline · Postby **DixieFlatline** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:08 pm

The most skill testing part of this deck and most other red decks in the current format is knowing when to deal with planeswalkers and when to ignore them.

The only planeswalker I ever find myself worrying about is Domri - especially considering its interaction with Courser of Kruphix.

Thoughts on what to do about Domri in this matchup?

I assume getting Courser of the board is a priority over dealing with Domri. Otherwise, try to keep it from its ultimate and ignore the rest?

Aodh · Postby **Aodh** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:17 pm

You can just ignore Domri. If they're -2ing their PW to kill Chandra's Phoenix, that's fine with me. Them drawing cards doesn't mean much to me either. Unless they're going to ult. and you'll be dead on board, don't worry about him. Planeswalkers are cards to develop incremental advantage. If longer we make the game (by doming their PW instead of them), the more advantage they build.

Toddington · Postby **Toddington** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:21 pm

So like this ...?

Jonnymagic's list 20/03/14

With regards to having Blind Obedience cast against us in a control matchup, the only thing it does is turn off Viashino Firstblade right? Sure, they get incremental lifegain and slow us down a tad, but it's not trading for any cards. It never generates tempo for them, because they don't have an aggressive board presence (we're not needing to block). Is this assessment correct?

Maybe there comes a point where Viashino Firstblade isn't our guy anymore, I don't think packing enchantment removal (just for control Blind Obediences) is the solution. Shift the
Firstblades for YP$ or Toil // Trouble down the line?

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:33 pm

In general you can ignore Domri. Yes, the Courser interaction is annoying but you don't care about them getting more creatures because you're trying to race them anyway. Just take care of Courser and you'll be fine. Domri's abilities don't really do anything to slow you down until he ultimates. If it gets that far then you've lost regardless.

Jonnymagic · Postby **Jonnymagic** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:57 pm

BO is a BEATING -- it turns off all hasty guys as well. It's possible I may be changing firedancer to young pyro because its good vs control and creature based decks, where firedancer is just the latter. Will test them out more =D. The other s/b I've messed with is 1xmuta 1xsparky instead of wear/tear.

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:31 pm

So here is where I am at so far, and I will voice my concerns after I show my current progress:

[deck]
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix

3 Chained to the Rocks

3 Shock
3 Searing Blood
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix

3 Boros Guildgate
3 Mutavault
9 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Fated Conflagration
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Blind Obedience
3 Satyr Firedancer
[/deck]

So I'm trying a couple iterations of that sideboard. That is version 1.

Version 2 is with 4 Searing Bloods main, and 2 Chained main:

[deck]sideboard 2[/deck]

My only issue with this sideboard is its a little weak vs. Non-Red Aggro lists. There are no sweepers (Mizzium Mortars being the
only one), and you rely on 1 for 1'ing them, which can be tricky.

I need to see if Spark Trooper is better than Satyr Firedancer, and if it isnt than I want to see how running with 3 Chained main is vs. the general meta. It seems good...

And, again, you'll notice I'm not running Viashino Firstblade. With the increase in Blind Obedience in decks (including in some BW lists, so basically all the matchups Firstblade is good against) and the increase of the mirror, I didnt want 7 cards only for control when i can have 7 cards vs control and have 3 of them good in more matchups.

Open to suggestions!

Toddington · Postby **Toddington** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:43 pm

DXI-Edge, Post 2003

Looks good. I'm very interested to see how Satyr Firedancer vs.
Spark Trooper works out.

In some matchups, you'd be bringing Spark Trooper and Fated Conflagration. Are we bothered about the curve?

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:49 pm

Currently I'm running Mizzium mortars in that spot, so I'm not 100% sure.

I accidently have the wrong sideboard for the 2nd one

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:52 pm

I'd just like to add that for the hour I tested 1 dragon and 1 vault in the board, it was awesome.

Toddington · Postby **Toddington** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:11 am

Currently I'm running Mizzium mortars in that spot, so I'm not 100% sure.

I accidently have the wrong sideboard for the 2nd one

Makes sense, I was thinking Mizzium Mortars over Fated when you run Spark Trooper. Sparky goes over Polukranos anyway

.

amcfvieira · Postby **amcfvieira** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:06 am

I see Blind Obedience in every sideboard since PV Damo da Rosa play with that GP Buenos Aires, so I think our haste guys become worse. I change my Viashinos to Trouble in sideboard, and I'm happy with that for now. Many people don't expect it and a T3 Trouble after my opponent taps out is a house, and not a bad topdeck in the late game. Cutting a lot of creatures is bad, because we want to put some pressure with creatures, detention Sphere, Jace and Supreme Verdict are the cards they play at sorcery speed and tap out, so it's important to have the creatures to create "open windows" to resolve other spells. I note that azourios Charm had gone from Esper lists, and that's very nice because I hate when they time walk us with that play.

I test Fated Conflagration, but I'm not sold to it yet. For now my sideboard have 2 Mizzium Mortars again. In my games Fated was only be relevant once, and many times I wish it
was Mizzium. It only relevant for me to kill Obzedat, I usually ignore Polukranos and the Planeswalkers, Mizzium can take out Blood Baron at a low cost and sometimes just blow out all the board of our opponents.

For now in my tests I'm happy with the 24 land, when I test again Fated I will change the 4th Mutavault for a Mountain an that's all.

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:39 am

So YP isnt very good in the mirror, but its WAY better vs. Blind Obedience as opposed to Firstblade

Dies to Removal

[Primer] Boros Burn

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