R/b Aggro aka "Dos Rakis"

[Jedi_Knight]

Whip is a concession to Burn as far as I am concerned. What Guttler said applies to the letter here but Whip can turn games against them on it's own. BO shuts us down horribly but having Whip main means we are sort of preboarded G1 which is something I prefer given how much FUBAR this matchup can get.

Switched back to Zealots... Cacklers are HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE topdeck. Played 4 dailies with them, not once had them hasted. -4 Cacklers, +3 Ashleys, +1 Shock.

Also gonna try RR. Card can be bonkers - not really sure about playing it on 24 lands though. We'll see. We're greedy already so fuck it. SB: -1 Devour, -1 Whip, +2 [card]Rakdos's Return[/card].

I would be really interested in that Cerberus tech because I am with MDU on this one: burn and control deal with it easily. Hoses reanimator though if that ever becomes a real deck. What matchups is good from your experience, Nuwen?

[Link]

How does burn kill cerberus without cards?

Against control its slow, wouldn't recommend really. still a decent threat from an angle that can return spike jesters and exavas to your hand.


G/r also can't do shit all against a 6/6. polukranos doesn't live long enough to fight it and you side out weak creatures for thought seize and black removal.

its also better in B/r bc easier to cast than stormbreath dragon.

[Guttler]

I actually don't like Underworld Cerberus or Rakdos Return, they are cards for other decks.

The problem is that if you want to play Cerberus along side SBD, you absolutely need 25 lands or more. Rakdos Return is also basically a 5+ mana spell, we also don't have any way to accel into these plays, except playing Rakdos Keyrunes.

The card's would be fine in a more midrange strategy, but a midrange RB deck would end up looking more like Mono B Devotion with a red splash then a R/B aggro deck that plays 2/2 haste creatures and burn spells.

Granted this is all theory on my part, I haven't tested either card in a match yet, but they both require a big mana investment which would require that any deck using them must play more lands.

[poppa_f]

Just an update to say that the deck is working better now I've cut the burn down and removed the Pyrewild Shamen, and moved 2 LBZ main. Bizarrely I played 2 Chromanticore decks in my last 3 matches (won both match ups pretty easily)

Regarding the whip, I've had completely the opposite experience, it's one of the strongest cards in the 75 for me, but then I have more lifeloss cards like read the bones and herald of torment (which in itself is a nice whip target)

RR I'm still on the fence about. I play 1 MB and it is sometimes good and sometimes bad, but when it's good (normally against midrange), it's amazing. It would work a lot better with ramp (keyrune), but no space in the sideboard for that.

[Link]

transformational dos rakis heralded by redthirst last season is a valid strategy

Steal game 1s, go over the top with value R/-b cards post board

1st I advocate cerberus or SBD, not both, as an over the top.finisher. 2nd only as a 1 or 2x on 23/24 land

SBD is fragile so I'm not a fan.

RR is hard to get value without ramp (see farseek), and not an actual threat

[Jedi_Knight]

Yep, I fully agree on RR not being a threat, rather a kind of an answer. But then again, what relevant SB cards do we have against Burn and Control since the other matches are usually in our favor (except some grindy shit with MBC sometimes)?

[nme]

How do you feel about cutting Hero's Downfall Jedi? It seems like it can cause some tempo issues, and running 4 Dreadbore could be enough without losing tempo. It's easier on the mana base with them gone as well.

[Jedi_Knight]

Well I think the main reason MDU put them there in the start was Ux Devo and finding a card that's not dead in other matchups. To quote: "doom blades and ultimate price gives me headache"

I've been toying with the idea for a long time. Ultimate Price is the best substitute in MD or at least the best that comes to my mind. I still don't think 4 Dreadbores are needed, I am happy with 3. But HDF usually is being used against creatures, so UP is cool. Even with Ux devo on the downlow I still think we need at least some answers to MoW. Will switch it this week.

I"ll be moving in a few weeks to a place with better connection, so I'll probably fire up stream. Right now I am just trying different builds - nothing to do really (with Standard PTQ season over and MOCS and online PTQ postponed) other than grinding tickets to sell.

[magicdownunder]

You misunderstood me, I meant UNDERWORLD CERBERUS is disgusting against Burn and Control in a good way

Though Whip or RR might just be better (RR for 3 for T5 is usually GG against most decks esp. if you follow up with SBD or something).

In regards to HDF, sure its bad on the curve but it hits everything - if you play enough games in a diverse meta you'll learn to value that very quickly.

[zemanjaski]

RE: Burn

You must beat down, or you get annihilated. Burn can out control a proper control deck - you have to kill them quickly.

[Link]

You misunderstood me, I meant UNDERWORLD CERBERUS is disgusting against Burn and Control in a good way

Though Whip or RR might just be better (RR for 3 for T5 is usually GG against most decks esp. if you follow up with SBD or something).

In regards to HDF, sure its bad on the curve but it hits everything - if you play enough games in a diverse meta you'll learn to v

value that very quickly.

i see

[magicdownunder]

I"ll be moving in a few weeks to a place with better connection, so I'll probably fire up stream. Right now I am just trying different builds - nothing to do really (with Standard PTQ season over and MOCS and online PTQ postponed) other than grinding tickets to sell.

I have two questions:

1) Are tickets still worth 0.90c US? I heard they went down in value after the Kibler incident (though they should have increased again by now).
2) Make sure to save your stream videos I'll love to see a fellow RB Aggro'er in action (I think you have the timezone like Pedros and Lazer which make it bad for live viewings).

[poppa_f]

I wonder if crypt incursion could be some good tech against burn, although it is a nombo with the whip (would also be back-breaking for dredge, but hardly anyone plays that). I'd consider bringing it in against blitz Aggro as well, just as a way to stabilise in the early rounds

[Jedi_Knight]

The problem with Incursion is that Burn plays almost no creatures... well, the DTR burn that is, the SCG stuff plays shit like Reckoners, so there's that. Hoses Reanimator pretty bad though, but I don't think that is a match we should SB for.

I"ll be moving in a few weeks to a place with better connection, so I'll probably fire up stream. Right now I am just trying different builds - nothing to do really (with Standard PTQ season over and MOCS and online PTQ postponed) other than grinding tickets to sell.

I have two questions:

1) Are tickets still worth 0.90c US? I
heard they went down in value after the Kibler incident (though they should have increased again by now).
2) Make sure to save your stream videos I'll love to see a fellow RB Aggro'er in action (I think you have the timezone like Pedros and Lazer which make it bad for live viewings).

1) Tickets here are worth actually a little bit more than 1$ due to the fact that buying from WotC raises the prize to about 1.2$. Also not that many grinders in Czech Rep.
2) Will do, as a European I am awake while you sleep.

[Link]

The real problem with crypt incursion is it doesn't actually do anything.

I've still won against Fabiano who crypt incursioned me for 38 last year.

It seems good on the surface but if you don't have sphinx's (he was grixis) or any significant catch-up you literally spent a card on just life.

Merchant kills you because you actually die and the 2/4 is relevant. Sphinx's kills you because of the CA

crypt incursion doesn't do jack shit and costs 3 mana, you'll still just flood out and die (albeit eventually)



Anyway, I haven't tested the burn MU but is it really that serious? You're an aggro deck with more creatures than them and threats that take specific answers (exava requires helix/mortars, Phoenix requires chanied to the rocks) and Spark trooper seems horrible against you if you're expecting it. I mean its not crazy in your favor (especially if they bring in reckoners) but either Whip or Cerberus
as tech should definitely be enough.

[zemanjaski]

FWIW I usually crush Rx Aggro with burn but that because they're crap players. If you follow Guttler's advice and don't fear the Searing Blood you'll be fine.

[Jedi_Knight]

Burn matchup usually comes down to single digits... I played against the streamer DarkestMage (the US champion or something) and both games I had him on 1 life... So if I played one burn spell to him instead of his creature, I would have won.

The point is, it's a race. And as any race, sometimes you get to finish line and sometimes you don't. Their lifegain fucks combat math. It's doable for sure. They are little bit favorized but if we manage to force them to burn ouor shit on the ground then we are on the high horse.

And fuck no, Searing Blood is just another spell. No way I am not playing that Jester. KILL HIM OR FEEL HIS TOUCH!

[zemanjaski]

Still have all these Warleader's Helix...

DarkestMage is a US National Champ and World's Team Champ.

[Link]

helix is still just another 1-1 removal spell for exava IMO.

the most important cards in that MU are Phoenix and Chandra

I notice your latest 75 doesn't feature any Chandra yourself Z, so it really comes down to how many phoenixes you draw as burn (because black has no answer for it) how many Chandras we draw and can protect/how many chained to the rocks you draw vs. our phoenixes.

Also choosing to be on the draw ;D

[dpaine88]

Been out of the loop but doing a tournament this weekend and figured I'd pop in for some dicussion since I played Dos Rakis so much last season.

I like the Jedi Knight list, with a small twist. Good job on the dailys and getting props on SCG.

I am curious, why the Shock in the maindeck and increase in shock? Are the synergies with Zealot, Exava,Pheonix enough to out weigh the inherent crappyness of the card?

[deck]Creatures (19)

3 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Lifebane Zombie
4 Spike Jester
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
Lands (25)

8 Mountain
6 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
1 Mutavault
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Temple of Malice
Spells (16)

2 Hero's Downfall
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Ultimate Price
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Dreadbore


Sideboard

2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Dark Betrayal
1 Devour Flesh
3 Doom Blade
3 Skullcrack
1 Rakdos Return
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

Maybe
cut 1 land for 3rd LBZ

[magicdownunder]

Shock is 1cc, which is important when we're casting stuff like Ash and Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch into x/4 or x/5 guys (its also a burn which is good for our immortal bird) so yes, that is why we run them .

Subbing them for UP isn't horrible though you soften yourself up against blitz and burn alittle (+ increases your dead cards).

P.S. Good to see you back in RB dpaine88

[dpaine88]

Fair enough MDU,you are right about that with blitz and burn being a bit weaker while improving G/x Devotion and Mono Black Devotion, which in my meta is extremely popular.
I know there is typically a lot of blitz types online but since I play only paper I am not too worried about Blitz or Burn matchup for the most part.

The synergies are definitly there though, and I will admit coming from Mono Back aggro I am a bit biased for the black removal.

Good to see you here too man.

Have you guys tested Chandra over Whip?

[magicdownunder]

J_K ran 2x Chandra over the Vexing Phoenixes I ran in my original RB draft.

He took them out so I assume we're having issue gaining value from her due too the number of removals, evasive creatures and lack of burns we run.

[dpaine88]

Good Points.

I still think that slot could be kinda a wild card. Maybe 1x Pack Rat? 3rd LBZ? Rakdos Return?

I read you guys discussing that Rakdos Return is bad but man...I remeber that card being so good last season.

I mean it is slow vs G/R aggro but not horrible and seems good against most non-aggro lists. Good vs MBC and Control at least. Late game draw for a lot of damage potentially. Also does damage to planeswalkers if needed.

[magicdownunder]

I'm not sure about the old RB list you guys ran pre-THS but with the current brew RR IS really powerful.

I do think 1x is the correct number for them as well though it competes with Whip. . . whip is quite good with Burn lying around

[dpaine88]

I am really leaning towards the 3rd LBZ. Been playing a ton the past month with 4 in the deck I was playing(not this one).

Card was very good as a package and seems really well positioned in the metagame currently.

I don't see him being bad in any matchup but MBC. For mono blue and control he is at least an unblockable 3/1 and that is really nice against elspeth etc.

[Jedi_Knight]

Story of last three days: losing matches with burn by 1 life. Need to learn to count to 20 better. Also need to win die rolls!

[magicdownunder]

Fairly dated videos but Meh (I've been busy + I don't have my black cards)

Standard Elimination (Event 6859999)
Standard Elimination R1 RB Aggro vs Rw Aggro Event 6859999
Standard Elimination R2 RB Aggro vs Gru Devotion Event 6859999
Standard Elimination R3 Split

I can't recall the list, but I'll just recommend the 25 land Ash version with Whip or RR anyways (IMO death by lack of lands or colours feels much worst then flood, thus running 25 lands with Dragons, 1-2x Vaults + RR or Whip or Chandra to act as Sinks is fine).

EDIT: When I call a video dated, what I mean is that its a video which I havn't upload yet (so its new for
you guys) but the filming date would of been weeks or days back (sometimes months) - I can't wait till its April 5th so I have more time on my hands again.

[dpaine88]

I think you guys have done good with this deck for sure. Gonna run it at a $1,000 TCG 1k this weekend.

Oh Dos Rakis how I missed you!!!

what do you guys feel are decks worst matchups?

Going through my head none of them stick out except maybe small aggro but i am not worried about that. Most of the Tier 1 decks seem 50/50 at worst

[Jedi_Knight]

dpaine88:

About LBZ: I do think it depends maindeck but that is mostly due to current meta (at least online). If BW and GRx will stop bothering me (which for now seems to happen with BW) we can relegate it to SB fully since it solves the BW matchup while the GRx we're already favorized. He (it?) is also awesome against Ux devo but is terribad against Burn.

The Shocks are here as a source of removal for small creatures and for returning Phoenix - we're still red burn at the core only the other way around tha Rw is: we have creatures supported by spells while they have spells supported by creatures.

As far the extra card... I prefer Whip. Actually I am gonna say that Whip is the best of what we can do given online meta. RR is good against certain decks (UWx control, Burn) but it doesn't present a threat opponent has to answer. Chandra is mediocre here: while I love the card advantage she provides, she is here just for
that because her +1 doesn't really allows our blockers to get through (not counting the tiny guys) as they get through on their own and her ultimate is usually worthless here while it shines in any Rw deck due to the presence of [card]Warleader's Helix[/card] and possibly Boros Charm.

My vote then goes to the Whip mostly because the deck I am having the most trouble with (aside from Hexproof which I refuse to SB specific cards for) is Burn. They are just quicker than us. What zem and Guttler said is true to the letter: burn can outcontrol us and we have to race. With their lifelink and gigantic reach that could be trouble. I am gonna start keeping track of wins/losses from dailies to help out with where to take the deck next. Other matches are even if not favorized for us: GRx we're certainly favorized, especially after SB, Ux comes down to MoW (as always), MBC we're slightly favorized (at least until they revert back to Cure which may or may not
happen with the Burn and all) and UWx is usually easy due to Phoenix recursion.

[dpaine88]

Thanks for the reply J_K.

LBZ: Is the G/R matchup that good that you really dont need this guy? cause that would be awesome.

I respect your opinion with Shock , I might have to try it. It is really nice to have 10+ ways to get Pheonix back. I still in my gut feel like those 2 cards could be better spent elsewhere because it does not feel like small aggro is really Tier 1 right now.. Which small creatures are you killing? I will have to test and see for myself which is best for me. Ultimate Price is nice to have but maybe 5 "kill anything" is enough and not needed.. could be Pack Rat or Desecration Demon?

You are def right about Chandra, as much as I love her , I am not sure how good she is right now.

When I was thinking about Whip earlier, I wasnt really accounting that we do have 6 pretty good recursion targets. Also, can help win while chipping away at their life with Dragon or Pheonix.


Have you
guys tested Pack Rat or Desecration Demon?

[Valdarith]

Worst matchup is Naya Hexproof. Burn is probably up there too.

[Link]

Fortunately, Naya hexproof is naya hexproof's worst MU, so it isn't all that bad

[Link]

Shocking an elvish mystic then playing a spike jester is pretty big game, so its not "just" for small aggro,

Its also mana efficiency for YP$, shocking to return a phoenix and immediately swing with it, etc.

[Guttler]

On hard match ups:

Mono-U Devotion and the new U/w Devotion been a thorn in the side of red decks since Theros. The matches aren't unwinnable, but they deck presents some very pesky cards for us between an active Thassa, MoW, Frostburn Wierd. The key is really being able to break up their devotion with burn, while holding a black terror for Master of Waves. The most annoying thing is because of how stupidly strong Thassa is that even after you gas them completely, they can often just draw out of it.

B/W Midrange is another deck I've had trouble with before. They present the same game plan as Mono-Black, but they have a stronger creature suite that often includes Brimaz and BBoV, both problems for us. I think the correct board plan is to side out all your burn, since it wont kill anything except maybe a Mutavualt or an early Pack Rat, and bring it Dark Betrayal, Mizzium Mortars, LBZs, and Skullcracks.

On Burn: You
need to keep an aggressive hand that puts pressure on them early. Putting burn on an early clock is huge, if they are using Magma Jets and Lightning Strikes to deal with your creatures, they are likely losing the race. The only big fear against them is if they draw multiple Searing Bloods and/or Multiple 4 damage dome spell like WLH and Boros Charm.

We actually have a wide open metagame at the moment as far as paper magic goes. It's hard for me to imagine what I'll be facing at my next big tournament.

[hoeiberg]

Guttler's analysis seems solid, although from the limited experience i have with it, mono-U doesn't seem all that bad as long as you save the black removal for MoV, fliers and LBZ don't give a &%£@ about frostburn and with all the removal we have activating thassa seems hard for them to do.

[Jedi_Knight]

Lost an Esper game during the night with the new Specter tech... thought he would attack with it so I scryed badly. Should have known that bitch is not here for attacking.

[dpaine88]

Those of you more experienced with the mana than I am,

how can we fit 2 mutavaults in the 25?

[RaidaTheBlade]

I'm still on the 24 land setup myself (it seems to work better for me. I haven't had many problems mana-wise), but if you're on 25 land and want 2 vaults, I personally would go:
8 Mountain
5 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

You could also have a 7/6 split on the mountains/swamps if you've got more black floating around then normal, but the 8/5 works pretty well with zealots.

[Jedi_Knight]

I don't think we can fit 2 vaults in as long as we play LBZ and HDF main. Too risky. You WILL die to variance.

Also: Peak Eruption against burn? I am tired of losing.