[Primer] Boros Burn

[RedNihilist]

Above someone mentioned it as an answer to blood baron for 4 mana with boros charm. While that can be true, what can also happen is 1. you play SFD, 2. you play boros charm 3. in response he kills SFD. 4. you just used 4 mana, likely tapped out, while he can swing next turn and get his 4 life back, possibly losing you the game.

I thought things should go like this:
1) you play SFD
2) you pass the turn with 2 mana open
3a) he
tries to kill SFD, you burn him in response and kill the Baron as well
- or -
3b) he tries to swing with the Baron, you block it with SFD and proceed to burn him before damage, he kills SFD in response but sees his lifegain negated

Point me out if I'm missing something.

That makes more sense, it will almost always at least get you a turn without him gaining life, so that's something.
3b is your worst case, since he keeps the blood baron and forces an answer out of you again the next turn, I'd still rather have the mortars and just kill the baron.
But you're correct, I undervalued SFD there, I'm still a little salty about it after losing 2 SFD to an unexpected golgari charm ^^

Shit happens

[Purp]

If I was going to have 1 of creature in my deck, it'd be spark trooper!

[Jonnymagic]

Sparkie has become one of my favorite cards ever. Lol.

[imopen2]

Yea. I have been thinking today at work and came to the same conclusion about cutting a shock for a gate and a mutavault for a mountain.

The idea of cutting the last 2 shocks for another chains and a spark trooper main is appealing but might that be diminishing the Phoenix a lot?

[Redzone]

Yea. I have been thinking today at work and came to the same conclusion about cutting a shock for a gate and a mutavault for a mountain.

The idea of cutting the last 2 shocks for another chains and a spark trooper main is appealing but might that be diminishing the Phoenix a lot?

Ash zealot also, allows it to kill a lot more.

[Ajak]

I'll also stop lurking to say hello and thanks to everyone for this helpful discussion and to Z for the CFB content. I'm a fairly casual player and new to MTGO, but I am most likely taking burn to GP Cincinatti next week.

I've been unintentionally testing 3 vaults/3 gates for the last month or so since I only own 3 vaults and it has worked consistently. I ditched the BW temple for a gate after it prevented me from living the dream of 3x searing blood on a desecration demon in a game I ended up losing. If the meta is mostly esper and mono black, I think the deck might be perfect as it is with 23 lands. However, if we're talking about cutting shocks and going to 24 for the sake of card power and hitting 4+ lands, I think SBD may deserve a couple slots.

[gabriel_404]

A deck with 24 lands and 5-drops sounds like a different deck to me. Am I wrong?

[Purp]

SBD is not good in this deck. In what matchup does SBD improve enough to completely change the deck the way plays out? UW? Oh that matchup is already easy. Let's focus on making the most functional deck and mana base we can, before we try to abandon ship. We are all speculating, let's test and show results.

[DXI-Edge]

Cutting shock isnt an option due to GR monsters being as prominent as it is, being a 1 mana answer to pack rat when needed, and being a turn 4 rebuy for Chandra's Phoenix vs. Control.

Its a necessary evil, sadly.

[zenbitz]

I like shock. Sometimes I get stuck on 3 mana and need/want to cast 2 spells. I would probably go mad with indecision if they reprint lava spike.

[Toddington]

I can totally understand the anti-speculation and anti-Shock cutting, but it isn't the first time it's been brought up. The maindeck and sideboard seem pretty tuned at the moment, and Shock definitely has a place.

Without wanting to bring up more untested speculation, MDU seemed to have a great run pre-BTG with Big Boros Burn (Big = 23 land, Burn was a 21 land deck then?). Maybe the meta has changed since then, but watching the videos posted, it seemed to run pretty hot. You can find stuff in the R/w/x Aggro thread, but I'll post some for the lazy;

pre-BTG

---

[deck=MDU's Angry Phoenix, Hidden Dragon]Lands 23
9 Mountain
2 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 6
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Removals 6
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars

Thighs 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Burns 23
4 Shock
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning
Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
3 Warleader's Helix

Sideboard 15
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Mutavault
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Rakdos Cackler[/deck]

post-BTG

---

[deck]Angry Phoenix, Hidden Dragon[/deck]

I hope this doesn't derail the (excellent) discussion that's going on, but maybe it will provide some food for thought.

[zeromuzuki]

Satyr Firedancer has been over performing for me every time he comes down, especially in the GR matchup where they don't have that removal in the hand. It just clear's the ground for us / saves the Chained for the important creatures that our burn can't handle. I haven't tried the new SB yet thought with the 4 Firedrinkers so I don't know how that works. The mana base I took to PTQ Stansted was 3 guildgates / 4 mutavaults if you look back at my post tournament report.

[LaZerBurn]

@ Toddington - Big Boros Burn was even bigger than these lists It ran 25 lands and 4 SBD

After processing the days posts my current test 75 looks like this

[deck=Zem's Boros Burn; LaZer's List]Lands 23
9 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Boros Guildgate
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 8
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Ash Zealot

Enchantments 3
3 Chained to the Rocks

Burns 26
2 Shock
4 Searing Blood
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Sideboard 15
2 Blind Obedience
4 Firedrinker Satyr
3 Viashino Firstblade
3 Satyr Firedancer
2 Spark Trooper
1 Chained To The Rocks[/deck]

[Deht]

Z --- thanks for the videos.

I have no idea why someone commented on the article on the CFB site about how there was too much analysis / talking. Isn't that the whole point of the series? The videos are enabling us to get into your thought process with how you approach playing the deck and analyzing matchups to help improve our play.

It is rather refreshing when a lot of the videos of pros playing that are uploaded to sites frequently involve them doing very little analysis and just playing or (even worse) cracking lame jokes / talking smack about their opponents plays. Thank you for your time and effort, Z

[Ajak]

Agreed, Toddington. I played MDU's angry phoenix build for a while which really is a burn deck, so I'm not saying this with zero testing to back it up. SBD's effectiveness is dependent on the meta, but it does fit the theme of evasive haste creature. I read Z's article and fully understand why SBD was cut in the first place, but esper and mono black could diminish in popularity and make ash zealot less impactful. I play 2 dragons because my local meta is infested with GR monsters, GW aggro, and obzedat decks in the form of BW and esper humans.

I'm less confident about taking the dragons to an open meta at a GP though, and I think the current list here is better positioned right now. I'll also admit that I'm less experienced than many of you and slamming a dragon on the table significantly lowers the learning curve. Not trying to beat a dead horse or make it all about me, so I apologize if this is not
relevant at this time.

[Purp]

Dragon is not good vs GR, imo. Maybe on the play, certainly not on the draw.

[LaZerBurn]

Z --- thanks for the videos.

I have no idea why someone commented on the article on the CFB site about how there was too much analysis / talking. Isn't that the whole point of the series? The videos are enabling us to get into your thought process with how you approach playing the deck and analyzing matchups to help improve our play.

It is rather refreshing when a lot of the videos of pros playing that are uploaded to sites frequently involve them doing very little analysis and just playing or (even worse) cracking lame jokes / talking smack about their opponents plays. Thank you for your time and effort, Z

So totally agree with you, especially this

[JohnnyfnB]

I personally am very grateful that I am apart of this community and very thankful to all who provide content. Especially players like Zem, that do videos and explain their thought process while playing. This is a social game and when the pros or anyone who takes time to provide content become ambassadors of the game. When they do that, regardless of getting paid or not, they are held to a higher standard. There is no room for condescending attitudes or being a jerk. So, thank you guys, thank you Zem and thank you LaZerBurn for posting that. Burn on!

[Redzone]

Currently testing the 3 guildgate 3 mutavault, 3-0 in my DE as of now, I like the mana base MUCH more than before.

[Toddington]

@ Toddington - Big Boros Burn was even bigger than these lists It ran 25 lands and 4 SBD

The 25 land lists with 4 Dragons didn't run pure burn, like 4 of Boros Charms/Skullcrack, maindeck (as far as I recall). I can understand why people would think that was a different deck, but the later Big Burn decks looked kinda similar to what we have here.

[imopen2]

Hey Zem, I watched your video series and in game 1 of the finals I noticed something. After your opponent played fiendslayer paladin you left up 4 mans for the helix eot. Could you have perhaps attacked with mutavault into his paladin, hope for the block and boros charm (indestructible) your mutavault to deal with the paladin? If he doesn't block you get an extra 2 damage and you can still charm him eot. I know it leaves you with a 4 mana spell instead of a 2 mana spell but you might have then been able to deal with the lion as well using the helix.

Just wondering since as I was watching that is what I expected you to do

[magicdownunder]

@imopen2: That would work (its what I usually do to deal with Fiendslayer), though I once experienced my vaults being UW charm away in response to Boros Charm T_T.

@Purp:

No speculation here: 3x Vaults + 20 R sources is good when your running spells which need [mana] RR[/mana] or creatures that use either [mana]RRW[/mana] or [mana]RRR[/mana] (last year Z said the same thing to me, which is why I found it amusing how I went 20 R / 3 colorless in my Rxx Aggro thread while Z went 19 R / 4 colorless) its good that you guys are thinking about the changes.

On the SBD topic, I believe it is good against Grx, Uw Devotion and UWx control.

You can ask other grinders to confirm this - the reason why SBD is good is because they don't have any instant speed removal (which can answer him) thus getting in for 4 is almost guaranteed, if they don't have MM or a walker the
following turn - that is another 4 damage.

Thus the prime cause for shying away from SBD would be the curve rather then its uses.

[zemanjaski]

Hey Zem, I watched your video series and in game 1 of the finals I noticed something. After your opponent played fiendslayer paladin you left up 4 mans for the helix eot. Could you have perhaps attacked with mutavault into his paladin, hope for the block and boros charm (indestructible) your mutavault to deal with the paladin? If he doesn't block you get an extra 2 damage and you can still charm him eot. I know it leaves you with a 4 mana spell instead of a 2 mana spell but you might have then been able to deal with the lion as well using the helix.

Just wondering since as I was watching that is what I expected you to do

Yeah that's a better line I think

nSometimes I forget Boros Charm has other modes...

[zemanjaski]

Currently testing the 3 guildgate 3 mutavault, 3-0 in my DE as of now, I like the mana base MUCH more than before.

Great, can we get notes after? Thanks.

[zemanjaski]

I find 5 mana spells unplayable for the reasons outlined in my articles; affects scry too much.

[imopen2]

I agree that SBD is not meant to be in this deck. Not saying it isn't good, but putting it in this list makes it into a different type of deck that I don't think we want to be

[magicdownunder]

I find 5 mana spells unplayable for the reasons outlined in my articles; affects scry too much.

I definitely agree, esp. after watching a few people play around with it (I just wanted to point out that SBD is strong against the lists I posted above, if it wasn't for the curve he would be an auto-include).

[zemanjaski]

[zemanjaski]

Z --- thanks for the videos.

I have no idea why someone commented on the article on the CFB site about how there was too much analysis / talking. Isn't that the whole point of the series? The videos are enabling us to get into your thought process with how you approach playing the deck and analyzing matchups to help improve our play.

It is rather refreshing when a lot of the videos of pros playing that are uploaded to sites frequently involve them doing very little analysis and just playing or (even worse) cracking lame jokes / talking smack about their opponents plays. Thank you for your time and effort, Z

Taking his analysis on board, next time I will just loudly play music from Street Fighter, then say Hadouken! every time I cast a spell.

nWhat insight.

[Redzone]

Currently testing the 3 guildgate 3 mutavault, 3-0 in my DE as of now, I like the mana base MUCH more than before.

Great, can we get notes after? Thanks.

I shouldve kept my mouth shut till after round 4 ..
Round 4 was against green devotion with splash for domri and xenagod, insane acceleration attacking me with a 10/10 polukranos by turn 4. And 12/12 arbor colossus with trample (thanks to nylea) the turn after.
I died turn 5 or 6 with him at 7 hp, I had 2 boros charms and spark trooper in hand, and 4 or 5 mountains+1 mutavault in play ._.

The other rounds were
against mono black, RG and esper, which all went really smooth and easy. I had t2 ash zealot at least once per match.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah RG Devotion is a pretty bad matchup. Kinda happy it is rare now.

[Rjayz]

Hiya, didn't report back last week since there were only 2 people going for Standard so it didn't fire, but I went to play tonight. Went 1-3 sadly, won my first round against Bant Control by winning the patience game, him tapping out for walkers before hearing the dreadful 'take 4, untap, take lethal' twice. I played WW, Naya aggro and G/r monsters after and felt without Satyr Firedancer I was absolutely useless against these matchups. I had tested against my friend playing the Naya deck, and he said Firedancer destroyed him (It's similar to the list posted on CFB not too long ago). Is it worth changing back to Firedancer or am I better off switching to another deck?

[zemanjaski]

Well, you should at least try Firedancer before giving up.

[Rjayz]

Alright, I'll do that and report back with results. Really love the deck though, will def keep trying. Part of the results can be chalked up to inexperience as well.

[zemanjaski]

Speaking as someone who I think many would consider a relatively strong player, it is an extremely skill intensive deck.

[Staind Diablo]

Hey everyone. I too have been loitering about for several days reading everyone's take on this deck. I started messing with it last week and was hoping to not like it that much so that I could avoid buying Mutavaults, but I unfortunately found the deck a ton of fun and even was doing quite well as a new pilot (of this deck) without Mutas. So, last night I broke down and bought them. Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to Z and everyone for the constant posts and updates, and the very interesting discussion about where the deck might be able to improve and its matchups.

I don't think I have a ton to add at this time, except that I will say that I have found Firedancer to be an absolute beast when it is good. It does way more work than it seems like it should, and flat out wins games. I was thinking about moving 3 back to the md instead of shock this morning, but think I will try the +1 chains -1 shock first. My
thought was that when Firedancer is bad, it is an expensive 1/1 that does little, but it might still get in a couple points of damage in game 1. If it hits a couple times, its not that much worse than shock, and shock isn't great in most matchups anyway. But when Firedancer is good, its way better than shock. I still may try this and see how I feel about it (I know the deck started with Firedancer main).

Also, my friend has been playing a version of the hexproof aura deck, and we have been testing against each other. I am sure everyone knows this and in the last video set when Z played against it he stated that this is a terrible matchup. But, I just wanted to confirm that I believe the matchup is basically unwinnable in the current 75 unless they don't draw unflinching courage or gift of orzhova. I did beat Naya auras in an 8 man the other night (it was super close), but I don't think that list was running unflinching courage. It does not seem like that deck is prevalent at the moment, so I
think its not a huge concern, but if that deck becomes more popular, I think this deck will need to try to find some sort of answer.

Thanks again for the videos Z, and thank you to everyone for their thoughts and discussion!

[Valdarith]

Cutting Shock is not a good idea here, especially when it pairs so well with Searing Blood and Ash Zealot. It's not nearly as bad as it was before Searing Blood was printed, and it was still playable then.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, you certainly cannot cut them all, although I am going to try a move to 2 Shock, 3 Chained in the main, which gives me an extra sideboard slot for control in the board. Thinking 4th Viashino or 1st Chandra. Maybe a sneaky Spirit of the Labyrinth >:)

[zemanjaski]

Alternatively, could be a singleton Wear // Tear.

[zemanjaski]

Then again, I am not 100% on the Firedancer plan, because then I don't have a clean answer to Blood Baron. But maybe the upside against GR and other creature decks is sufficient.