[Primer] Boros Burn

[LaZerBurn]

Frank Karsten tells me 3 Mutavault plus 3 Guildgate is better with our new white heavy SB. I agree. Also I love Guildgates.

I hate 'em but not enough to disagree with you and Frank

[Lightning_Dolt]

I think Ashley > YP$. YP$ won't get in for damage the turn he enters, and will play into any sorcery speed removal they have main deck. Ashley is usually Shock (or more) + they discard a card and use their mana. I think Ashley is just better here.

[LaZerBurn]

Check out CFB's latest podcast with Zem and Josh talking at length on the deck, it's excellent

[Purp]

I think Firedancer becomes much better with the addition of BO. I also don't think its terrible vs BW as it now makes our burn spells be able to handle their DD into BBV draws. Ash Zealot has been really bad for me vs GR. My opponents are not going to block it. Firedancer essentially takes a turn to setup, but with the addition of BO we are buying a turn.

At the Open I ran 3 SFD and 3 Chains main, putting 3 shocks in the SB.

[rcwraspy]

Is mono-B either boarding out Bile Blight or keeping Bile Blight in the board (not bringing it in) against this deck games 2 and 3? If Bile Blight is in their 60, YP$ is much worse than Ash Zealot in my opinion.

This thread moves incredibly quickly. I haven't seen Ham respond with hard figures re: the manabase, so I'll throw my $0.02 in there. Here's what I've sleeved up for a mana base:

[deck]
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
[/deck]

That's only 12 untapped red sources, but it's 19 turn 1 tapped/untapped red sources. So whatever equation is developed has to include both turns - 19 outs on T1 and 12 outs, unless one of them is used T1, on T2. And then it obviously needs to be run again to compare different configurations.

I prefer the 4th Mutavault. If that makes a double untapped red on T2 issue, then I think the solution isn't to decrease the Muta
but to -1 shock, +1 Mountain to go up to 24 total land. However, once we hit that 24 to 25 land quantity, we have a filtering issue. With 4 Magma Jet and 4 Temples we have 12 scrys on 8 cards, which helps. And Mutavault itself is a mana-sink. But Wild Guess does warrant consideration when you have a deck that all of a sudden wants to filter. Alternatively, we could also add 1x Chandra, Pyromaster to the main deck to help us draw out of flood, and on 24 lands we know she's fine to cast.

The reason I prefer the 4th Mutavault is pretty simple. It's one of the 2 most powerful cards you can play in Standard right now, the other being Thoughtseize. I think you have to have a VERY good reason to cut one of the most powerful cards you can access, and when you can just cut a Shock instead I think you do it.

EDIT: In goldfishing I've also noticed that this deck wants to hit the 4th land on T4. That lets you cast 2 burn spells
in their end step heading into T5 and really close the lid shut on their life total.

[zemanjaski]

If you pay careful attention to my vids, I worry about hitting 4 land A LOT. Like you've correctly observed, the deck doesn't function well if it's not doing two things a turn, even if one thing is bluff Skullcrack.

I've found drawing two Mutavault early really bad; I don't want two until I'm on 5 land, so I don't mind going to three honestly; or at least testing it. I know Caleb and Conley arrived at similar conclusions with their Mono Black Aggro deck.

I like guildgates because they're such a strong turn 1 play and with experience the deck sequences so well anyway.

[Khaospawn]

Its sounds like the A plan is what you want then, Z.

[zemanjaski]

I just love how complicated the decisions are. Means the deck is real.

[Purp]

I really think the decision on SFD is harder than Manabase.

[rcwraspy]

This is again just gold-fishing, but the only time I didn't like 2x Muta on T4 (so 2 of the 4 lands) was if I was holding Boros Charm. With Magma Jet, Lightning Strike, or Skullcrack I can still cast 2 on 2 Muta and 2 red sources. You can also tap a muta to activate the other and hold up RW to represent any 2cmc card, including Charm. So I'm only slightly disagreeing - I still like 2 Muta on T4 but definitely not any earlier than that. All that said, I obviously don't have the hours invested in the deck that you do so take anything I say with a grain of salt.

[zemanjaski]

I really think the decision on SFD is harder than Manabase.

Maybe harder, but less important. A functional manabase is the soul of any good deck.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Have we come to a consensus on the manabase?

[DXI-Edge]

I think it really comes down to do we want a 2 of answer for Blood Baron, or a 4 of answer that is good against Aggro and Monsters.

In all Honesty Zem, everytime you said to take out Boros Charm and put in Firedancer I cringed. Most matchups where Firedancer is good (and I say MOST) Ash Zealot is bad.

This means that against Mono-Blue, Monsters and sometimes white weenie Ash Zealot is the worst burn card....GAME 2.

However. If Young Pyromancer's tokens were hastey (i know, greedy right) I would 100% run Pyromancer. However the matchups he is good in are matchups that we are already good in: MBD, Esper, Weenie decks (when we run Firedancer), etc.

Because of this, I honestly think the correct configuration of the deck, going forward, is one of the following lists:

4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix

2 Chained to the Rocks
3 Shock
4 Searing Blood
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
n4 Warleader's Helix

9 Mountain
3 Boros Guildgate
3 Mutavault
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry

Sideboard
4 Satyr Firedancer
4 Firedrinker Satyr
3 Viashino Firstblade
2 Blind Obedience
2 Chained to the Rocks

---OR----

4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Satyr Firedancer


3 Shock
4 Searing Blood
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
3 Warleader's Helix

9 Mountain
3 Boros Guildgate
3 Mutavault
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry

Sideboard
2 Spark Trooper or 2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Firedrinker Satyr
3 Viashino Firstblade
2 Blind Obedience
4 Chained to the Rocks

The 2nd list is interesting in that Firedancer is a better Chained to the Rocks vs. Control, Black-White, and Aggro while being worse against Mono-Black and Monsters.

However, we realistically dont need the full 4, and sideboard only loses out on 1 of the cards from the new board while keeping the other, and keeping one of the better cards in burn.

However, when we look at
this we need to consider this:

If Firedancer doesnt stick vs. one of the best decks in the format (BW, GR), then it does 0 in the matchup. However, against these decks (especially BW) I do not believe running it out turn 2 is optimal.

Realistically, it along with boros charm is a 4 mana "kill your blood baron" removal spell.

So we need to think: is 4 Firedancer worth losing Mortars/Spark Trooper? Or is 3 Firedancer worth losing 2 Chained main and a Helix while gaining 2 Chained side and having EITHER Mortars or Spark Trooper?

I think the 2nd list allows for more diversity, but I'm not sure

[zemanjaski]

One other point of discussion may be -1 shock +1 chains in the main. Shock is so bad and with the extra Chains the MBC and GR matchup improves game 1.

[zemanjaski]

Have we come to a consensus on the manabase?

I'd love it if over the next few days we went away and tested the version with 3 Guildgate, 3 Mutavault. I think that's best but better to verify with real data!

[Lightning_Dolt]

Have we come to a consensus on the manabase?

I'd love it if over the next few days we went away and tested the version with 3 Guildgate, 3 Mutavault. I think that's best but better to verify with real data!

OK, just sleeved it. Will report back.

[Lightning_Dolt]

but TBH, I wasn't having issues with the old mana base

[zemanjaski]

I run bad

Say hi guests!

[BlakLanner]

I had YP in my sideboard for a long time to fight the control battles (I was too lazy to get Firedrinkers). Any opponent that has ever seen what she could do immediately hit her with whatever removal they had. I like having "answer this or die" threats so that is a big plus to me. Firedancer never left my sideboard, so I am glad to see it back into the discussion. Losing Shock Trooper could hurt in some fights, especially GR. But, as has been mentioned in previous posts, I might just be exploiting bad players with it as opposed to using it correctly.

[zemanjaski]

Well, 2 mana is a lot less than 4 and the decks where you want Firedancer don't have instant speed removal.

[amcfvieira]

CFB Reader suggestion: Wild Guess.

Discuss.

I think it will be a bad card. Discard one card? For be replace and hit another card? It work fine if have flood and discard a land. Seems that it's a non sense in the deck, if you have Magma Jet and Temples that filter the draw. What card remove? Shock? All the others > Wild Guess. Just my 2 cents.

Except with 25 or 26 spells now.

[deck]PyroBurn[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4
Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
2 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
3 Boros Guildgate
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

9 Mountain[/deck]

I like very much this configuration, but YP will hit the 3 or maybe 3 drop places. You will want take some advantage of them, and hold him until you can gain VCA. This will make we to play the deck in so way different. Do you will spare the burn spells to connect with YP and play a more control/tempo role or will pressure him and play a much agroo/tempo game? If your answer is control/tempo the YP should be in the 60, if the pressure is what make this deck gain a edge from other the answer is Ash.
If we think it like a sideboard card I think it's best run Firedancer because is best against winnies and Mono U.

[BlakLanner]

That is the tricky part. People quickly learned to kill Firedancer on sight. I love the card and still have it in the side but I would feel naked not having any Mortars. It is rather fun to watch the look on a GR player's face when you use a Boros Charm or Helix to pop a Stormbreath, though.

[zemanjaski]

Good points.

I think having a day rest from playing made me go all hypothetical instead of trusting the work everyone had put in so far; thanks again everyone, the deck has been a (fire)blast to play. Shows what team work and thoughtfulness can achieve too.

[DXI-Edge]

Well, 2 mana is a lot less than 4 and the decks where you want Firedancer don't have instant speed removal.

Is this in response to me?

The only time I really spend 4 mana for Firedancer/Burn is vs. Black-White/Mono-Black

[lorddax]

Hey guys just chiming in that a 3 gate 3 vault looks to be where the math/sim is pointing. Looks to be the best percentage at having RR open at 2 without making other trade offs.

[amcfvieira]

About the mana base discussion, what about the suggestion of rcwraspy to went to 24 lands. +1 mountain - 1 Shock with the full playset of Mutavault and 3 Guildgates?

[zemanjaski]

Well, 2 mana is a lot less than 4 and the decks where you want Firedancer don't have instant speed removal.

Is this in response to me?

The only time I really spend 4 mana for Firedancer/Burn is vs. Black-White/Mono-Black

No Blaklanner. I'm highlighting mana cost because although on the surface Spark Trooper is higher impact, Firedancer just sitting in play can dramatically change the course of the game, it just won't be as obvious.

[Redzone]

Alright so after a lot of lurking (Ive been meaning to register like a week ago, but didn't receive my confirmation email and didn't try again til now.
I've played the old list at 2 FNM's when zem posted his original article on CFB, and the day after made some changes of my own (somewhat similar to what you discussed here, cutting SFD from the deck, and took it to a PTQ.
From then till now I've experimented with it on MTGO and since I took vacation grinded quite a lot of games, which is where I played a mirror about a week ago and my opponent told me to check out this site.
After all that here are my thoughts on some of the things that were discussed here:

SFD: the card did awesome for me at the FNM events, which I both finished coming in second. BUT aside from the mono blue matchup, which this card basicalle turns into a BYE, it just hasn't been amazing for me elsewhere.
It's slow, dies easily (got blown out by
golgari charm, costing me 1st place in one of the FNM's) and it's easy to throw the game away. Above someone mentioned it as an answer to blood baron for 4 mana with boros charm. While that can be true, what can also happen is 1. you play SFD, 2. you play boros charm 3. in response he kills SFD. 4. you just used 4 mana, likely tapped out, while he can swing next turn and get his 4 life back, possibly losing you the game.
I don't know, against control it does almost nothing so no big difference to Chained there.
The only time i really miss him is against mono blue with white splash for detention sphere,ephara, revoke existence. Them removing my chains makes me sad.

Mizzium Mortars:
This card is awesome. Period.
I would never cut it from the sideboard again. Being able to kill t2 courser, frostburn weird, and being a 1 card answer to blood baron is justifiction enough for me to keep this in.

Blind obedience:
Huge blowout card in the mirror and against aggro, I had an opponent on the PTQ who
played the old list and when I dropped it in t2 g2 he just said "alright, guess we can move on to g3". It's that good.

mana base:
I've been having a LOT of problems with this, I don't know but I feel like I have to mulligan way too much, so I went and cut a shock for a 3rd guildgate a few days ago. It has improved but I havent yet tried cutting a mutavault.
I sometimes sideboard the third guildgate out if I don't board many of the white mana spells in.

Obzedat:
The single card that I lost most of my PTQ games to. With almost no way to remove it and me never drawing BO against it I got crushed hard by this card.
Made me consider fated conflagration.

Oh and spark trooper I wouldnt cut from the sideboard, it's just been huge against RG (unless I draw it and remain with something like mutavault,mutavault,temple,guildgate, and no way to cast it.

I got paired against mono black 5 times at the ptq, and won every single one of them, I love this deck for that matchup.

I'd love to
contribute to this discussion from now on, hello everyone!

[rcwraspy]

Welcome to the site, Redzone! I'll let others welcome you to the thread, as I'm just popping in here for the first time as well.

[zemanjaski]

Sup. Is red zone your mtgo handle too?

How about 3 mortars, 1 spark trooper? Lowering the curve is appealing.

I also like -1 shock, +1 chains main.

[LaZerBurn]

Hi Redzone - are you Redzone91 on MTGO? If you are, well done on the placing at the PE!

[Redzone]

Yeah that's me
I almost made top 8 there, unfortunately my opponent in round 7 played selesnya and destroyed me with t1 experiment t2 voice t3 voice

Oh another good argument for keeping mortars is brimaz.
I like the idea of going 3 mortars 1 spark trooper, definitely worth trying.

[zemanjaski]

I wish PEs would fire when I entered them...grumble grumble grumble

[zemanjaski]

Join our mtgo clan and listen to Kaitscralt and I complain about everything.

[Redzone]

Sounds lovely.

[Toddington]

So, we don't like Shock, how about it gets cut all together?

+1 Chained to the main, awesome.

How about that 4th Mutavault (assuming 3 Gates and 9 Mountain) as the 24th land?

One Shock left, let's cut it for a high impact spell.

How about...

---

[deck]One Dragon Burn[/deck]
I seem to recall Dragon was dismissed for being too clunky, and for lacking the ability to unload your hand fast. Does 24 land change that? You are never going to draw more than one. If you
get stuck on 4 land with a Dragon in hand, you're drawing live right?

I suppose it could just as easy be a Chandra or a miser's Wild Guess. Is the 4th Chained unnecessary? A single Mortars in the main?

How does cutting Shock change the sideboard plan?

[LaZerBurn]

Sounds lovely.

I'll send you an invite after downtime

[RedNihilist]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=203113#p203113:17j1b6bs]Redzone » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:33 pm[/url:17j1b6bs]":17j1b6bs]Above someone mentioned it as an answer to blood baron for 4 mana with boros charm. While that can be true, what can also happen is 1. you play SFD, 2. you play boros charm 3. in response he kills SFD. 4. you just used 4 mana, likely tapped out, while he can swing next turn and get his 4 life back, possibly losing you the game.[/quote:17j1b6bs]

I thought things should go like this:
1) you play SFD
2) you pass the turn with 2 mana open
3a) he tries to kill SFD, you burn him in response and kill the Baron as well
- or -
3b) he tries to swing with the Baron, you block it with SFD and proceed to burn him before damage, he kills SFD in response but sees his lifegain negated

Point me out if I'm missing something.

[Redzone]

Above someone mentioned it as an answer to blood baron for 4 mana with boros charm. While that can be true, what can also happen is 1. you play SFD, 2. you play boros charm 3. in response he kills SFD. 4. you just used 4 mana, likely tapped out, while he can swing next turn and get his 4 life back, possibly losing you the game.

I thought things should go like this:
1) you play SFD
2) you pass the turn with 2 mana open
3a) he tries to kill SFD, you burn him in response and kill the Baron as well
- or -
3b) he tries to swing with the Baron, you block it with SFD and proceed to burn him
before damage, he kills SFD in response but sees his lifegain negated

Point me out if I'm missing something.

That makes more sense, it will almost always at least get you a turn without him gaining life, so that's something.
3b is your worst case, since he keeps the blood baron and forces an answer out of you again the next turn, I'd still rather have the mortars and just kill the baron.
But you're correct, I undervalued SFD there, I'm still a little salty about it after losing 2 SFD to an unexpected golgari charm ^^

[gabriel_404]

Hi Guys - just want to say hello and not be a lurker

I don't have a lot to add except that I disliked two early Mutavaults because they kept getting hit, but I then learned how to play around removal a little better. I am not as experienced as a lot of you but I've found time to get in some online games and I'm learning by making mistakes. And, even with my mistakes I still win a lot so I give credit to the deck. At my level I still see a lot of creature decks so I am still playing Satyr Firedancer but I just switched to 2 main and 2 side - I'm starting to realize that they're not always as awesome as I first thought.

RE Toddington's Dragon idea: I think if i was gonna have a one-of bigger creature in my deck I'd prefer a Flame-Wreathed Phoenix b/c 4 mana and both of its modes seem good. I haven't tested with it though.
Thoughts?

Zemanjaski - Thanks for posting the newest set of videos yesterday! Other than the 3 mutavault/3 guildgate manabase, have you made any other changes to that list?