[Primer] Boros Burn

zeromuzuki · Postby **zeromuzuki** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:23 am

Whatsup guys, took the new recent list while I was traveling in London for an FNM and crushed 4-0. Took it to PTQ Stansted the next day, biggest ptq marked now 409 people record. Went 7-2 with it coming in 29th place. Will report when I fly back to Germany, thanks again!

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:31 am

Well done sir.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:33 am

I beat his draw of Turn 4 Polukranos into Stormbreath into Ruric Thar in Game 2
pics or it didn't happen

I'll see if MODO saved the game. BO is just the nut high.

zeromuzuki · Postby **zeromuzuki** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:39 am

No well done to you zem. Deck creatorrr, didn't know if I spelled your name right on the sheet haha

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:11 am

I dont know which is harder to spell; my surname or my mtgo handle.

Khaospawn · Postby **Khaospawn** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:03 am

I dont know which is harder to spell; my surname or my mtgo handle.

It's never been a problem for me.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:33 pm

My buddy Szuler won the Prague PTQ with my exact 75 >:)

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:47 pm

I had an opponent thoughtseize me and take Chandra's Phoenix, leaving two Boros Charm in hand.

RedNihilist · Postby **RedNihilist** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:57 pm

Yesterday I went to a PTQ (with monoB) and had my opponent playing some kind of subvariant of this against me.
In game 2 he played Chandra, +1'ed my Pack Rats, and >I< had to remind him that he was damaging me as well, and rebuying the phoenix from the graveyard.

Meh.

Jonnymagic · Postby **Jonnymagic** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:11 pm

I had a fun play in the DE last night. Was playing vs jund monsters, and he rakdos returned me for 2 with 4 mana up and a lightning strike and shock in hand. I had 2 phoenix in the graveyard. I lightning striked him in response, bought back both phoenix, discarded them to rakdos return, and end of turn shocked him to get them back in swing in with one next turn. He cursed me out, I swung in with phoenix the next turn, and that was all she wrote lol. I went 3-1 in the DE overall, losing MISERABLY to naya hexproof. I can't beat that deck at all, and I just know it'll be a loss when I see t1 gladecover. I did manage to steal one game from him, so that made me feel good.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:18 pm

Yesterday I went to a PTQ (with monoB) and had my opponent playing some kind of subvariant of this against me.
In game 2 he played Chandra, +1'ed my Pack Rats, and >I< had to remind him that he was damaging me as well, and rebuying the phoenix from the graveyard.

Meh.

Only give them one of those. Guy got a game loss playing for top 8 at the GP this weekend from missed triggers like that.

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:20 pm

Depending on your philosophy, either subtly read the card to make sure his action is legal or call a judge for a private conference to find out if it's a mandatory trigger. If you're going to angle shoot (morally acceptable and not creating at all), make sure you're doing it right and don't end up like Jackie Lee, dq'd from the pro tour.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:38 pm

I am certainly not saying to be a dick about it. The guy who got the game loss on camera apparently had racked up a lot of warnings that weekend for missing triggers. I fully understand how nerve wracking it can be to be in a feature match, especially with top 8 implications. That is why I say let the first one go as a reminder to be more careful, then do as you must in a competitive/professional REL event. Just don't ignore it as that could put you in exactly the situation that happened to Jackie.

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:51 pm

I play on MTGO and I'm facing a lot more mirrors.

My strategy is to cast everything at EOT and never tap out for Helix if your opp has Crack mana open unless you really have to or are going to win anyway; this seems to be what my opps do too. I'll avoid casting Phoenix into open mana unless I'm forced to as well 'cos it leaves Searing Blood and Chains as dead cards in hand. Again my opps tend to do the same. I'm wondering if this is correct though.

I've also noticed that this approach is vulnerable to decks packing Toil and I wonder if this is worth trying to squeeze back into the 75 for the Control and Mirror; Toil is more flexible, though I do prefer FDS Vs Control.

Peak Eruption is pretty brutal in the mirror but too narrow to warrant a SB slot unless Burn gets even more popular I think.

Thoughts on this strategy anyone? Especially whether or not to cast Phoenix.

Self Medicated · Postby **Self Medicated** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:57 pm

Yesterday I went to a PTQ (with monoB) and had my opponent playing some kind of subvariant of this against me.
In game 2 he played Chandra, +1'ed my Pack Rats, and >I< had to remind him that he was damaging me as well, and rebuying the phoenix from the graveyard.

Meh.

Good man. That's something you have to do at times. Damage from Chandra's +1 is mandatory, and Phoenix is a mandatory trigger, so if you hadn't said anything you would have been in the wrong. I missed a Phoenix trigger during a PTQ because I was tilting pretty hard. Opponent told me AFTER he won that if I had caught it he would have lost. I didn't think anything of it at the time because I thought Phoenix wasn't a mandatory trigger. Looking back, I probably
should have called a judge immediately.

Narcasus · Postby **Narcasus** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:12 pm

This is something I was never clear on. Say my opponent is running Ruric Thar, and i cast a spell and he lets it resolve without me taking 6 damage. Could i be given a game loss for ignoring the ruric thar trigger?

As a note to the thread. Went 4-0 in a DE on Sat beating Mono u, rdw, Mono u splash white and Jund Monsters. Also 5-0'd my FNM but the competition level is not very high there.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:32 pm

According to the tournament rules PDF, players are required to remember their own triggers and intentionally ignoring one is considered cheating.. A player is not required to remind an opponent about triggers the opponent controls (but at regular REL events it is encouraged). The warnings likely happened because lifelink is not considered a triggered ability and was therefore considered failing to maintain the state of the game.

Edit - That means that you should not be penalized if he doesn't mention the trigger off Ruric Thar. Just don't forget about it when you have one on your side of the table.

Narcasus · Postby **Narcasus** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:36 pm

According to the tournament rules PDF, players are required to remember their own triggers and intentionally ignoring one is considered cheating.. A player is not required to remind an opponent about triggers the opponent controls (but at regular REL events it is encouraged). The warnings likely happened because lifelink is not considered a triggered ability and was therefore considered failing to maintain the state of the game.

Edit - That means that you should not be penalized if he doesn't mention the trigger off Ruric Thar. Just don't forget about it when you have one on your side of the table.

Alright, thanks a lot. Clears that up for me.

Deht · Postby **Deht** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:55 pm

This is something I was never clear on. Say my opponent is running Ruric Thar, and i cast a spell and he lets it resolve without me taking 6 damage. Could i be given a game loss for ignoring the ruric thar trigger?

This exact scenario happened at an SCG Open recently with Brad Nelson playing UW Control against a RG Monsters player. RG Monsters player missed the trigger for Ruric Thar when Brad cast Elspeth. The interaction went something like

Brad - "Elspeth, Sun's Champion -- resolves?"
Other Player - "OK..."
Brad - "Ok, -3 Elspeth"
Other Player - "Wait... Ruric Thar Trigger"
Brad - "Trigger was missed?"

Judge at the match ruled it as a missed trigger by Brad's opponent.

Mr. Metronome · Postby **Mr. Metronome** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:02 pm

Just had the pleasure of having my face burnt off by Zemanjaski in an 8man, the other Semifinals went really long so he's probably about to crush a control player.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:07 pm

He's dead Jim.

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:58 pm

After some goldfishing/cockatrice testing, the new list is really good.

As much as I like firedancer, aggro decks just arent that common and Mortars/Spark trooper are still fine vs. them while being awesome in other matchups.

Although I didnt take it to the PTQ, this will probably be my main deck with UW Devotion going forward. Digging the list Zeman!

blobinga · Postby **blobinga** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:29 pm

Hey, been meaning to post on this thread for a while. Really like this deck, it's the first deck I've ever built properly instead of borrowing and have found it incredibly fun to play. Took the deck to a 7-1 finish at a game day (losing in the finals to mono black), 3-1 at an FNM then 5-4 at the London PTQ .

Having played it a few times now there's a few things I wanted to talk about.

So the list I ran for the fnm/games day was the one posted on channel fireball and the list I ran for the ptq was the current list but with the shock/helix replaced by 2 firedancers in the main

The main thing that surprises me about this deck is how common it is becoming. In round 2 at the PTQ I played against someone playing the mirror, with someone who had just played the mirror in round and played another mirror later in the day.

The meta at a PTQ level seems hugely diverse and I feel like satyr firedancer deserves a place
somewhere in the 75 if you're planning on playing at around that level. (as in not at the tier Zem is playing at). He massively improves the U/Uw match ups as well as any creature based strategy without decent removal.

The other was questioning the firedrinker satyrs, I am inexperienced with aggro compared to most of the people on this board (having mainly played the control decks in the past) but wonder if it's necessary for the control match. I managed to lose a match against Esper in the PTQ where he had resolved an elspeth and I had 6 turns to find a burn spell to end the game but sadly even with scrying only found lands and creatures and wondered if diluting the strategy from game 1 is that necessary of if the anti-control cards would be better as say burning earth's/chandra (almost nobody played UW at the PTQ, everyone seemed to have switched to esper for the R/G match up).

Thanks for the deck, it's the most fun and interactive aggro deck I've ever played.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:33 pm

FDS into Ash Zealot vs control is auto win.

blobinga · Postby **blobinga** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:36 pm

I actually completely disagree, if you're on the draw you can have a point where neither connect especially against proper esper not UWb where they board into so many removal spells

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:38 pm

one of them is going connect.

t1 FDS
t2 Ash

Now they can either syn ash, or charm the FDS or LB something... either way, something is getting through.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:40 pm

One will connect, but how many times? I usually only bring in Firstblades and BlOb vs Esper. Firstblade only has to hit once, anything more is a bonus.

blobinga · Postby **blobinga** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:43 pm

sorry, good point one will always connect but maybe only once (in before someone's running eye gouge/wring flesh) but at that point it barely seems worth it. I just genuinely felt like it was making the deck worse (having played a lot of pre-sideboard matches and matches where the esper has sided but I haven't and the deck geniunely felt weaker sided). At this point I feel the sideboard slots could be a lot better used especially as we have the firstblades.

On top of that, later they fold to a Jace which really isn't a card the strategy has to worry about otherwise.

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:20 pm

One will connect, but how many times? I usually only bring in Firstblades and BlOb vs Esper. Firstblade only has to hit once, anything more is a bonus.

Why do you bring in Blind Obedience vs. Esper? Its a very slow card that requires more cards in hand and more mana.

Against Esper, our best draws are when we curve out, force them to react and finish them off with burn. The games we lose are the games where we dont apply enough pressure and they can sculpt their hands with counterspells and resolve Blood Baron at a reasonable life total or a Sphinx's Revelation.

Blind Obedience doesnt buy us time like it does vs. Monsters or Black-White, and the life-gain isnt as relevant as it is in those 2 matchups.

Having Firedrinker Satyr turns
the Esper/UW matchup from near un-winnable to a blowout.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:27 pm

I bring it in to slow down defending Blood Barons as well as squeeze out the last few points when our hand runs dry and we have mana to spare. I have had too many instances of dropping a Satyr, getting to next turn, and pumping mana into it only to have it die to their removal package.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:35 pm

FDS and Ash don't get walled by Jace... Taking 1 pt of unanswered damage a turn adds up in the end.

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:42 pm

I could see bringing in Blob vs. Esper/UW though it doesn't seem completely necessary. What's the curren tboard look like?

4 FDS
3 VFB
2 Blob
2 Chained
2 Spark trooper
2 Mortars or some such?

If that's the case you have 7 cards you're always bringing in(FDS+Viashino) and an optional 2/4 other cards in Blob and spark trooper. I could see bringing in all that. Cards that are largely bad are Shock, and chained to the rocks and searing blood can easily be boarded out which is 9 cards out 11. If you're hellbent on boarding everything in, I'd cut either jets or warleaders helix(low impact spell, vs. slow spell), otherwise, play it by ear and pick your battles.

LP, of the Fires · Postby **LP, of the Fires** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:44 pm

Blind obedience is probably the last thing I'm bringing in, but especially if you know your opponent is bringing in creatures and/or they play obzedat, the 2 mana enchantment can go way up in value. I don't know what the average winning speed vs. control is, but if it drops below turn 5 vs. control, I like blind obedience, otherwise, I'm sort of indifferent.

Mr. Metronome · Postby **Mr. Metronome** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:59 pm

I just punted myself into 2-2 in the daily, didn't see the line that let me play around the 2nd Gray Merchant (that my opponent ended up having), but the line was there, and I know it now so I can recognize it in the future.

Said punt: I'm on 4 lands, opponent has a Gary (which I skullcrack'ed) and a Desecration Demon. I have a Warleaders Helix and a Lightning Strike in hand, representing lethal because he's at 5 life. I also have a Chandra's Phoenix. He swings with his Demon and Gary, I take it and go to 2, and then immediately realize that I should have sacc'd my Mutavault to Demon, Strike'd him EoT, and then swung in for the last 2 points with Phoenix that I'd have had exactly 3 mana to cast. Instead, I go to 2, and I'm forced to Warleader's Helix his first Gray Merchant in response to his second one, gaining four to go to six and taking his devotion down by two, losing 4 and going back to two, but leaving my
opponent at 9 and me with 4 lands in play and no combination of spells that can kill him off the top.

The bright side is that I immediately noticed the alternate line that would have won me the game. Ah well, that's what I get for getting barely any sleep.

Such a skill intensive deck, a lot of lines can get you through situations you shouldn't be able to survive.

zeromuzuki · Postby **zeromuzuki** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:01 pm

[deck=Zemanjaski's Boros Burn as at 8-March-14 5:11am]
Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments
2 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
2 Blind Obedience
2 Chained to the Rocks
3 Satyr Firedancer
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Spark Trooper
4 Viashino Firstblade
[/deck]

This the list I took to PTQ Stansted and went 7-2 with it coming at 29th.

Round 1 - MB Devotion splash red (2-1)
Game 1 I take him out with a hand full of burn. Game 2 he boards in duress and he goes T1 thoughtseize T2 thoughtseize + duress but that still couldn't beat the deck until I couldn't
handle the Mogis god + whip. Can't do anything about hia enchantments. Game 3 I am on the play so I board in the creatures and take out some small removal. I curve out well with Ash and Viashino and then burn him the rest.

Round 2 - GR Monsterish? (0-2)
I get annihilated both games as he BTE BTE into carytid. Then starts casting domri + nykthos for janky shit. Couldn't do much here.

Round 3 - RW Burn (0-2)
Game 1 was very close but seeing how he was on the play I lost out on some early damage. Game 2 I made the worst mistake by playing the first creature and get rolled from there. Haven't had much practice in the mirror but I know how to play it now. He was using an old list without BO.

Round 4 - Esper Control (2-1)
Game 1 I take him out with Ash and skullcrack the face with Boros charms. Game 2 I made the mistake of playing my phoenix into his syncopate and couldn't close it out against his aetherling. Game 3 Viashinos and Spark Trooper comes in and the game rolls downhill for Esper T2 Ash
T3 Viashino he tries to verdict but I have boros charm and then close it out.

Round 5 - Rx Devotion (2-1)
Game 1 is a blowout as my opening hand is searing blood x2 MJ, LS, shock, and 2 lands. Game 2 his Reckoners + mogis killed me. Game 3 I close him out with BO+ Firedancer and burn removal + extort + phoenix swinging. BO > Hammer of Purphoros.

Round 6 - Esper Control (2-0)
Game 1 I burn him out with burn spells and skullcrack. He didn't have the final counter when he cast his Sphinx's. We were both bluffing spells at that point but mine was for lethal. Game 2 he had a slow start but I brought in the hasty guys w/ T2 Ash T3 Viashino He plays Jace AoT, and I play Spark Trooper to his face. Game close out.

Round 7 Jund Monsters (2-0)
Game 1 I am on the play and I curve out with T2 Ash T3 Phoenix and burn him out as he stumbles on making the 4th mana. Game 2 I got lucky as he shocks himself quite a bit to make mana and it's easy game from there as I land a Firedancer and he didn't have the
removal for it. Rest of my burn to the dome and more phoenix power.

Round 8 BW Midrange? (2-0)
Game 1 I am on the play and I keep a hand with removal, ash, phoenix, 2 lands. I land T2 Ash and his T2 was thought seize. He stumbles on the 5th mana and gets his Blood Baron down 2 late as swing in with 2 phoenixes. Game 2 I keep a hand of 2 WH, 2 Boros charm, 2 land and ash. He thoughtseizes and takes boros charm. It was a very close game where I swung with a phoenix eventually and he tries to devour flesh his tapped down DD when luckily I have a skullcrack in hand to prevent that and he goes to 1 life and it's over next time.

Round 9 GR Monsters (2-0)
Game 1 I am on the play, I play tapped land and he goes T1 mystic. My T2 I shock the mystic and he goes wtf that's the first shock I've seen in a while. He kept a slow hand of scrys depending on that mystic and I close him with phoenix and burn. Game 2 I keep a hand of 2 lands, 1 dancer, 2 shocks, 1 LS, 1 MJ. He doesn't have removal for my dancer until
it was too late and the early shocks to kill his T3 courser on my T4 with dancer closed it out as I drew BO and sparkies.

Overall, I felt the deck performed wonderfully. I had a couple misplays here and there but I learned the proper roles after each match. Every card in the deck I felt was really great, especially Viashino and the 3rd Spark was needed. BO was a powerhouse and the Firedancers were amazing. I felt like Chandra was kinda useless so that frees up 1 more card in the SB. I feel like maybe revoke existence is a card we should use? Gets rid of not only enchantments but also enchantment creatures like courser. I didnt feel like any matchup was horrible but then again I got quite lucky. Sorry for the long horrible report, hope you enjoy the read and thanks again for the deck. Looking forward to more discussion.

JohnnyfnB · Postby **JohnnyfnB** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:50 pm

Has anyone considered replacing FDS with Everflame Eidolon? I'm going to test it tomorrow night. The first reason why I think it's worth a try is, you can bestow it on a Viashino Firstblade or Chandra's Phoenix anytime. A little off of the strategy of the deck, but you could bestow an Ash to fight fattys. You get the fire breathing, +1/+1 and if they verdict, you still have a creature. Second, FDS fire breathing costs 1R for +1/+0, while EE costs just R. If your sitting on 5 mana FDS does only 4 dmg, while EE does 6 dmg. Plus, the cheaper cost leaves you room to efficiently utilize your mana for a burn spell. Thoughts?

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:18 am

Thanks for the reports guys, your experiences with the deck really do help me keep an open mind and look for improvements.

AKIRADEATH · Postby **AKIRADEATH** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:37 am

I'd like to discuss Obzedat versus this deck. Almost every game I play feels like it could be winnable, but the ones in which Obzedat comes out seem to be hopeless. Frustratingly, I lost two matches in the Canadian Magic Tour to B/W, and I can say that each of the games were well in my control until ghost dad came out.

Does anyone have suggestions on how to deal with Obzedat? Maybe sideboarding Fated Conflagration or Renounce the Guilds? Renounce the Guilds is a great removal against Obzedat/Blood Baron, but it might be too narrow to be taking up sideboard slots. I guess it also kills RG planeswalkers, Ruric Thar, Reaper and possibly a few other big threats. I'm not sure.

Am I just having an unusual amount of bad luck or playing poorly? Is it just a matter of Skullcracking at the right moment and hoping to close out the game soon after he comes out? Please help!

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:39 am

A resolved Obzedat is almost impossible to get out from under. Blind Obedience slows him down but you either need 2 burn spells to knock him down or toss a few spells at your opponent's head to stop the life gain from getting out of control. Skullcrack does help but you won't have enough of them to keep that going for long.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:41 am

Last PTQ I played in my opponent forgot his trigger (and so did I). I realized it later (about two turns) and called the judge. We both got a warning.

Dies to Removal

[Primer] Boros Burn

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